Quantum Experiments, Proof that Human Consciousness influences Particles

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posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 11:40 AM
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There have been many threads before about quantum experiments such as the Double Slit experiment and many have hinted at the role human consciousness plays in quantum physics, but I´ve never seen a thread that actually proves it based on the experiments.

I have done quite some research and I´m convinced it has been proven, but somehow noone, at least noone in the scientific community, has publicly drawn the conclusion that human consciousness directly influences the behavior of particles, based on these experiments.

At least not to my knowledge.

All they say is that the results are remarkable and counter intuitive yet noone has claimed absolute proof for the role of consciousness, not even the experimenters themselves. Again, as far as I know.

Skeptics always talk about "New Age BS" and refer to that "stupid movie What the Bleep do we know?"

So to first get an understanding for the basics of the variation of the Double Slit experiment I'm basing this thread on, I'm going to show a vid about it.

It's from that "stupid movie" What the Bleep. Bear with me skeptics, like I said, this is just to get an understanding about the experiment and the strangeness surrounding it.

I don't agree with everything that What the Bleep is claiming but this vid is an easy understandable explanation on how it works.

I will come up with proof for my claims later on in the thread.



So when the slits are not being observed, and one particle at a time is fired at them, in this case an elektron, you get counter intuitive results.

An interference pattern is created, when this should not be possible, since we are firing single particles, so they somehow form a wave, wich is an interference pattern.

This is known as Wave/Particle duality. A commonly known term, but it is just a description of the phenomenon without a real explanation.

As the vid explains, the inescapable conclusion is that the single particle is everywhere, goes through both slits and interferes with itself.

This is remarkable enough on its own.

So when they measure with slit the particle actually goes through, it goes through only one of the slits, and the interference pattern is no longer there.

You could say, that because of observing, the particle has to go through one of the slits, because we are looking, the wich path information is present.

Because of our consciousness having acces to this this information, the wave of potential is destroyed.

This is were the skeptics come in.

Now pay attention, cause this is the meat of this thread.

Skeptics, to this day always claim that this is total BS, just look at some of the comments on that YT vid, that's exactly what I mean.

They say the interference pattern is not destroyed because of our consciousness knowing the wich path info, but because of the physical act of measuring.

Because of the interaction of the particle with the measuring device, the so called Observer Effect.


In physics, the term observer effect refers to changes that the act of observation will make on the phenomenon being observed. This is often the result of instruments that, by necessity, alter the state of what they measure in some manner.


Good thinking, but wrong, and I will prove it.

Enter the Quantum Eraser Experiment.

en.wikipedia.org...

This experiment has the same setup as the DS experiment, in principle. It actually works differently, and they use an apparatus with entagled particles. But it boils down to the same thing.

Two paths a particle can pass through and a device to show the particle pattern or the interference pattern.

The big difference is that in this exp. they can erase the data of the measuring device that provides the wich path information.

-So when they don't measure there is an interference pattern.

-When they do measure the interference pattern collapses.

-When they measure but immediately erase the info, the interference pattern is restored.

This proves that the physical act of measuring, the Observer Effect, is not responsible for collapsing the interference pattern.

The measuring device has interacted with the particle, yet the interference pattern remains if the info is erased.

The conclusion is again inescapable, the availability of the info is what collapses the pattern, or not.
I see no other reason for that besides it having a direct relation with the consciousness of the experimenter.

Why else would it matter if the info is available?
It seems the scientists are not willing to make this conclusion and simply describe the strangeness, wich is off course kinda expected from scientists.


The experiment has two stages: first the experimenter marks through which slit each photon went, without disturbing their movement, and demonstrates that the interference pattern is destroyed. This stage shows that it is the existence of the "which-path" information which causes the destruction of the interference pattern.


It can get even weirder with another variation of the experiment.



The second stage goes by erasing the "which-path" information, and demonstrating that the interference pattern is recovered. It does not matter whether the erasure procedure is done before or after the detection of the photons.





The delayed choice quantum eraser, allows the decision whether to measure or destroy the "which path" information to be delayed until after the entangled particle partner (the one going through the slits) has either interfered with itself or not. Doing so appears to have the bizarre effect of causing the outcome of an event after the event has already occurred. In other words, something that happens at time t apparently reaches back to some time t - 1 and acts as a determining causal factor at that earlier time.



So there you have it.

The inescapable conclusion is that human consciousness has to be playing a role in these experiments.

I urge skeptics to debunk these findings, I know there are some here that have always objected to this by saying it is because of the Observer Effect. Well it clearly is not.

What does this mean in real life?

Well this is off course pure speculation, but I would say that solid matter forms from a wave of potential, based on the programming, expectations and perimeters of our consciousness.

Take it or leave it, but preferably, discuss.










edit on 24-4-2012 by RandomEsotericScreenname because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 11:43 AM
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I saw this movie. Actually the experiment put an electron detector (because electrons are invisible to naked eye) behind one of the slits so it influenced the experiment's result by modifying the slit's shape.
Sorry, I'm a physicist, and I tell ya, that phenomenon has been debunked last year as being an error.
edit on 24-4-2012 by swan001 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by swan001
 


Thanks for not reading the whole thread obviously and being one of those skeptics I am talking about. I specifically said the vid was simply for explanation purposes.

There is no way you could've read the whole thread in one minute. And you're one of my friends too.



Please respond to my claims about the Quantum Eraser Experiment, wich is what this thread really is about like I clearly said.
edit on 24-4-2012 by RandomEsotericScreenname because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 11:53 AM
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I don't think you proved that human consciousness is interfering with anything.. unless you're erasing the "which-path" information from your brain, you will still know it .. your consciousness will still know it .. but the fact this information can be erased.. ( erased from what, the measure device I would imagine? ) .. shows it's NOT human consciousness but still something to do with the measurement.. perhaps the act of measuring removes information from the particle itself and erasing it restores it on a quantum level? ( I'm not physicist ) ..

But still .. unless you're erasing it from your consciousness, I don't see how you did anything but prove yourself wrong..?



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 11:54 AM
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And for the record, I read every word you wrote - I have seen the QS video before though so I didn't bother re-watching it at work.



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 11:56 AM
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reply to post by miniatus
 


As I clearly explained, the availability of the Wich Path info is the relevant factor, clearly.

Why else would it be relevant?

Do you at least agree that the Observer Effect is not responsible for the collapse of the interference pattern, as shown with the Q Eraser Exp?

If you are familiar with the DS exp. there is no need to watch the vid, as it was simply for explanation purposes.


edit on 24-4-2012 by RandomEsotericScreenname because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by RandomEsotericScreenname
reply to post by miniatus
 


Do you at least agree that the Observer Effect is not responsible for the collapse of the interference pattern, as shown with the Q Eraser Exp?



Your point was to prove that the human consciousness is the factor .. I think the Q Eraser Exp. actually proves that it's not.. The act of observing still causes the collapse of the interference pattern, the Q Eraser Exp. just shows that it can be restored when this information is erased.. How does that prove your theory? .. yes the availability of the which-path information is the key .. but erasing that information from where? .. I don't think you've proven it is human consciousness or not the act of measuring.. it merely introduces another variable..
edit on 4/24/2012 by miniatus because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 12:06 PM
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I key thing to me is this..



When they measure but immediately erase the info, the interference pattern is restored.


They are referring to erasing the information from the measuring device.. this tells me that the mere act of measuring has altered the state of the photon .. erasing that information from the measuring device allows the state to return to as it was before it was measured.. I don't see how that has anything to do with human consciousness.. it seems to have everything to do with the act of measuring..

The amazing thing about the Q-Eraser Experiment seems to be that the which path information can be captured .. altering the photon's state, and then it can be restored by merely erasing it.. that's pretty amazing to me.. I still don't see the leap to human consciousness



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by miniatus
 


Exactly, man. A star for you.



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 12:17 PM
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Would this better be explained by the Quantum Zeno Effect (already noted in ATS earlier)?
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 12:20 PM
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This has a lot to do with another discussion at ATS, here.

After posting there, I read something I had to look up, specifically "registered phenomenon," and chose a page link from Google books. It was page 168 of "The Physicists' View of Nature: The quantum revolution, Part 2" By Amit Goswami.

John von Neumann is quoted:
"We are the observer; there is no phenomenon unless it is registered in our experience."

It goes on to say that Heisenberg said 'collapse of the wave function is about knowing.'

Consciousness is knowing...
To me, it is absurdly simple...and it fills in A LOT of blanks and straightens out a lot of convoluted hypotheses with elegant simplicity.

Einstein said...."When the solution is simple, GOD is answering."

And then there is the famous 'playing dice with the universe' comment...even THAT is resolved when consciousness is considered as the missing element in the 'theory of everything.'


IMO, that is....and I'm no physicist although I do aspire to understanding metaphysics...outside of religion and outside of science there is truly a commonality that renders them both valid yet incomplete...two sides of the same coin, as it were...if Spirit truly exists, then there is no reason we can not use science to detect and somehow identify it or at least its workings...the same as we have done with gravity and the other forces...



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 12:21 PM
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In the macroscopic world ruled by classical physics, things are what they are. In the microscopic world ruled by quantum physics, there is an existential dialogue among the particle, its surroundings and the person studying it.

Define "existential" and you have your answer.



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by miniatus
I don't see how that has anything to do with human consciousness.. it seems to have everything to do with the act of measuring..


But ultimately WHO (or what) is measuring?

Even using a measuring device of some kind requires a human to operate or set up...and not only that, but a human is necessary, even, to bring that device into existence in the first place!
And it goes without saying that both the inventor/designer as well as the operator are CONSCIOUS humans.

Right?



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


Then you agree that human eye only cannot influence the particles, as the particles are only influenced by the devices it passes in.



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 12:28 PM
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Heres another more thought provoking experiment



The intial claim is that Stapp "has found a way of modifying the basic equations of quantum theory to permit people to influence things that happened in the past".

Schmidt's experiments are described briefly. They involved a group of martial arts students as subjects, being shown prerecorded random numbers via an electronic display. The numbers had been generated some months earlier by an apparatus involving a radioactive source and a decay counter (radioactive decay timings being as "truly random" as anything one can find in nature). The students attempted to exert a mental "influence" on the visual display, whose behaviour was determined by the prerecorded numbers. In this way, they would be supposedly influencing the statistical distributions of the numbers themselves. "Remarkably", the article claims, a significant bias was found in the numbers, "one that had a less than 1 in 1000 probability of occuring by chance". It is claimed that "elaborate precautions were taken to prevent any cheating". Precise descriptions of experimental procedures in many similar experiments carried out by Schmidt can be found in the numerous articles available in the RPKP archive.


link
edit on 24-4-2012 by minor007 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by miniatus
I don't see how that has anything to do with human consciousness.. it seems to have everything to do with the act of measuring..


But ultimately WHO (or what) is measuring?

Even using a measuring device of some kind requires a human to operate or set up...and not only that, but a human is necessary, even, to bring that device into existence in the first place!
And it goes without saying that both the inventor/designer as well as the operator are CONSCIOUS humans.

Right?


Quantum existence is tied to the environment, opposite to the independence of macroscopic objects. If you want to isolate the environment to the human consciousness, have at it.

It doesn't make it so.



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by miniatus
I don't think you proved that human consciousness is interfering with anything.. unless you're erasing the "which-path" information from your brain, you will still know it .. your consciousness will still know it .. but the fact this information can be erased.. ( erased from what, the measure device I would imagine? ) .. shows it's NOT human consciousness but still something to do with the measurement.. perhaps the act of measuring removes information from the particle itself and erasing it restores it on a quantum level? ( I'm not physicist ) ..

But still .. unless you're erasing it from your consciousness, I don't see how you did anything but prove yourself wrong..?


It doesn't matter where the wich path info is stored or erased, what matters is if it has the potential to ever reach the experimenters consciousness. I'll get back to you on this.

For now read this,


According to Kim, et al., "The actual mechanisms that enforce complementarity vary from one experimental situation to another."[1] In the double-slit experiment, the common wisdom is that complementarity makes it seemingly impossible to determine which slit the photon passes through without at the same time disturbing it enough to destroy the interference pattern. A 1982 paper by Scully and Drühl circumvented the issue of disturbance due to direct measurement of the photon,[4] according to Kim, et al. Scully and Drühl "found a way around the position-momentum uncertainty obstacle and proposed a quantum eraser to obtain which-path or particle-like information without introducing large uncontrolled phase factors to disturb the interference."[1]


en.wikipedia.org...

This seems to suggest that the eraser is not influencing the process.

And then again, to what non conscious thing would it matter if the info is available?
edit on 24-4-2012 by RandomEsotericScreenname because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 01:13 PM
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reply to post by miniatus
 





They are referring to erasing the information from the measuring device.. this tells me that the mere act of measuring has altered the state of the photon .. erasing that information from the measuring device allows the state to return to as it was before it was measured..


With the measurement one could say the particle is potentially influenced, but how is the particle influenced again if they erase it from the measuring device?

Yes it is allowed to return to the state it had before the wich path info was known, correct, by making the info unavailable, not by influencing the particle again.

This should tell you that measuring in the first place is NOT what altered the state of the particle, but the mere fact that the info is erased and unavailable, to something or someone.

Since there are no conscious things, I would say again that the only logical explanation is human consciousness.



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by miniatus
I don't see how that has anything to do with human consciousness.. it seems to have everything to do with the act of measuring..


But ultimately WHO (or what) is measuring?

Even using a measuring device of some kind requires a human to operate or set up...and not only that, but a human is necessary, even, to bring that device into existence in the first place!
And it goes without saying that both the inventor/designer as well as the operator are CONSCIOUS humans.

Right?


It does, but the point is the state of the photon ( the which-path ) is registered/recorded on the device itself.. erasing it from the device resets the photo to pre-measurement state.. if the human consciousness were at play, the human merely knowing what that measurement was would not allow it to be erased and the previous state couldn't be restored.. therefore as far as I'm concerned, that eliminates human consciousness as the cause and verifies the act of measuring and recording that information as the cause.. to me, that seems to be the "inescapable conclusion"



posted on Apr, 24 2012 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by RandomEsotericScreenname
reply to post by miniatus
 





They are referring to erasing the information from the measuring device.. this tells me that the mere act of measuring has altered the state of the photon .. erasing that information from the measuring device allows the state to return to as it was before it was measured..


With the measurement one could say the particle is potentially influenced, but how is the particle influenced again if they erase it from the measuring device?

Yes it is allowed to return to the state it had before the wich path info was known, correct, by making the info unavailable, not by influencing the particle again.

This should tell you that measuring in the first place is NOT what altered the state of the particle, but the mere fact that the info is erased and unavailable, to something or someone.

Since there are no conscious things, I would say again that the only logical explanation is human consciousness.


I don't see that as a logical conclusion for the reason I just posted .. however.. look at quantum entanglement .. you could say that the information about the photon's path has been entangled with the device that measured it's path.. thus setting a state in the photon causing it to STAY on that path.. when that information is erased, the state is unset.. how is that possible? I couldn't say.. but I also can't describe to you the mechanism that allows entanglement to work in the first place.. what I can say is that human consciousness does not seem to be a factor to me for the reasons in my last response a moment ago =)


This should tell you that measuring in the first place is NOT what altered the state of the particle, but the mere fact that the info is erased and unavailable, to something or someone.


I don't know why it tells you that, but that's not what it says to me.. it tells me that the known state was erased from the measuring device, which seems to unlink that state from the photon at the same time.. if your human consciousness were doing it, simply knowing the state would not allow it to be erased..
edit on 4/24/2012 by miniatus because: (no reason given)





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