The Origins of Aleister Crowley's Thelema, and the possibility that its an elaborate hoax., page 3

reply to post by Lagrimas

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Sorry, were you ever considering that this all WASN'T a hoax??

It's all obviously a hoax.

Originally posted by Lagrimas
reply to post by Cuervo

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Yes very well said. I myself practice 'white thelema' the father of wicca. I think you are fooling yourself however if you don't realise that the book of the law's rules do allow for hedonism. They allow for whatever a star wants, no holds barred. Choices our ours. The doctrine leaves the gates very much open.

Living for the 93's and not just the 93 is commendable. It is the way of the wise. The way of the love magickian.

It's a big scary world out there though!

edit on 16-4-2012 by Lagrimas because: (no reason given)

I would point out that this is your interpretation. No elses. Every man and woman must interpret Liber AL vel Legis for themselves. Speaking of which, did you destroy your copy after reading the comment? ;-)

reply to post by Kantzveldt

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Thanks for your insights, Im no Egyptologist myself, just someone with a deep interest in Thelema. I guess if the Stele is real then the manner in which Crowley perpetrated the Hoax becomes a bigger mystery,

I still cant help but wonder about the whole Aiwass delivering a message from Horus aspect, perhaps Crowley really did have a conversation with his higher self/ subconscious mind. I suppose we will never know.

Thanks again for adding to the discussion.
And everybody else who added comments, stars and Flags. 93's to every one of you.
Lag.

reply to post by Lagrimas

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Perhaps just opportunism or inspired by synchronicity, take your pick, when his wife recognises Horus in the stele and Crowley becomes intrigued by the 666 exhibit number. He seems to have attempted to understand Egyptian religion in conjunction with biblical tradition, as did the Theosophists and Masons of his day, not to mention the Egyptologists...thus you see a curious merging of the likes of the Book of the Dead and Book of Revelations into one.

Perhaps just opportunism or inspired by synchronicity, take your pick, when his wife recognises Horus in the stele and Crowley becomes intrigued by the 666 exhibit number. He seems to have attempted to understand Egyptian religion in conjunction with biblical tradition, as did the Theosophists and Masons of his day, not to mention the Egyptologists...thus you see a curious merging of the likes of the Book of the Dead and Book of Revelations into one.

reply to post by Kantzveldt

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Yes I think this is a good take on the situation.
Perhaps there's some truth to the story of how the stele and book were revealed to Crowley, and he just embellished the story slightly to make it more exciting?

I still find it highly dubious that an entity called Aiwass dictated the Law of Thelema and not that Crowley wrote it himself.

Specially taking what you've said in to account, that Crowley would have been well versed in knowledge of the Bible and books like the book of the dead. This combined with his knowledge of Buddhism would have given him a fine platform to write the book of the law, i would imagine.
rice n peace.
Lag

reply to post by ThinkingCap

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I doubt that Crowley had a puppet master or a group who manipulated him. People like him, in my experience, are self-directed and even as they push the envelope of civilization they push their own envelopes, and there is usually nobody around who can keep up with them. From what I've read about Rose she gave a lot of her energy up after their child died, and led a probably nonexciting life after that, except for the drinking (although I may of course be totally wrong).

[en.wikipedia.org... Rose's wikipedia entry], which has some data about the background of the writing of the Book of the Law.

Originally posted by Lagrimas

Perhaps just opportunism or inspired by synchronicity, take your pick, when his wife recognises Horus in the stele and Crowley becomes intrigued by the 666 exhibit number. He seems to have attempted to understand Egyptian religion in conjunction with biblical tradition, as did the Theosophists and Masons of his day, not to mention the Egyptologists...thus you see a curious merging of the likes of the Book of the Dead and Book of Revelations into one.

reply to post by Kantzveldt

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Yes I think this is a good take on the situation.
Perhaps there's some truth to the story of how the stele and book were revealed to Crowley, and he just embellished the story slightly to make it more exciting?

I still find it highly dubious that an entity called Aiwass dictated the Law of Thelema and not that Crowley wrote it himself.

Specially taking what you've said in to account, that Crowley would have been well versed in knowledge of the Bible and books like the book of the dead. This combined with his knowledge of Buddhism would have given him a fine platform to write the book of the law, i would imagine.
rice n peace.
Lag

An entitity called Aiwass dictating to Crowley is of course highly dubious, reminiscent of Moroni dictating golden tablets to Joseph Smith founder of the Mormons, outright fraud in my opinion, but there were obviously people around prepared to believe in these direct revelations, and those who would take advantage.


Crowley was of course well read and connected to the Theosophists of his day, to understand his approach to Egyptology, Gerald Massey needs to be looked at, in particular the 'Natural Genesis' published 1883 and Egypt 'Light of the World' published 1907


Natural Genesis


ANCIENT EGYPT...Light of the World

It may have been a million years ago
The Light was kindled in the Old Dark Land
With which the illumined Scrolls are all aglow,
That Egypt gave us her mummied hand:
This was the secret of that subtle smile
Inscrutable upon the Sphinx's face,
Now told from sea to sea, from isle to isle;
The revelation of the Old Dark Race;
Theirs was the wisdom of the Bee and Bird,
Ant, Tortoise, Beaver, working human-wise;
The ancient darkness spake with Egypt's Word;
Hers was the primal message of the skies:
The Heavens are telling nightly of her glory,
And for all time Earth echoes her great story.

That's the basis for Crowley's syncretism, Massey laid down the foundations which he adopted. It can be seen also in those works that numerology was an aspect of these 'revelations', thus Crowley latching onto a piece of numerology in conjunction with an image of Horus i don't find surprising for the mindset of the period amongst his circle.

reply to post by Masonic Light

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I guess then a simple anagram 'As i saw' or 'As i was' or 'I was as' or 'i saw as' , suggests the inspiration for Aiwass.

reply to post by Lagrimas

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Looked up Rose Kelly. Seems Aleister had her committed to an asylum in '11 for "alcohol dementia", and when she was released, ended up marrying a doctor Gromley. (PO'd about being silenced to an institution?

reply to post by Iconic

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Haha a bit of independent research. Love it.
Who knows maybe Rose decided she was going to spill the beans on the whole Hoax and Crowley found a way to silence her... Great stuff. Thanks for the input Iconic. Star for you.

reply to post by sdocpublishing

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Just thought it would be worth mentioning that it's not a good idea to go traipsing around the astral plane untrained and on your own.

reply to post by Lagrimas

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First of all, star and flag for the research and well written post. Good job.

That said, I think you're over-thinking a few things. Specifically, times and places that you take as being more than just a coincidence. For example the moving of the Stele in 1902, his marriage to Rose in 1903, and his finding it in 1904. It sounds to me like you're taking "time stamped" instances and turning them into something more than what they are.

And then there's Baddicombe Gunn. You say that Crowley's association with him was "too close for comfort." I say that people travel within their circle of people who have a lot in common with each other. Birds of a feather. That's all that sounds like it is to me.

You seem to have good research skills so I would suggest the same thing another poster did and start getting in contact with the authors of the Wiki article you heavily referenced. It's no secret that anyone can go and edit articles there so I would double check the information for authenticity.Especially if you're going to keep making posts like this. You know as well as anyone that people here are going to be quick to call you out when they smell BS. You seem to deserve better than that so just make sure all your I's are dotted and T's are crossed.

Something else I want to mention that might help you see things in a different light so as to help you get to the bottom of this is that we all know Crowley was pretty much a self made man. He made his own life what it was. No one else pulled the strings. He's not the only one who was ever like this and he wont be the last. In this day and age though people like him, who march to the beat of their own drummer, and getting to be found very few and far between. Perhaps this is why it's getting harder and harder to understand people like him.

If I were you I would imagine your own life kind of like his in that you do your own thing regardless of what other people say or do. Put yourself in his shoes and see through his eyes for a bit. If you do you might find that when people live the life of people like Crowley that things just fall into place. I wouldn't recommend the amount drugs and reckless sexual abandon that he did, very few people can do what he did and live to tell about it, just will your own version of what you think your life should be by doing whatever it takes to make it so.

("Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". That's what I take it mean at least.)

If you do or imagine that kind of life you'll find that it gets easier to do whatever it takes as time goes by. It's just like anything else in that the longer you do something the better you get at it. And I think that's the main reason why, 100 years after the fact, we can send probes to Saturn and figure out how big our galaxy his, but we still can't get a firm grip on whether Crowley was a fraud or not. It's that way I think because Crowley was one of the best at what he did. And that, simply put, is the fact that he made his own life by whatever means it took. People, for the most part, don't do that anymore. For all of the mans faults, you gotta give him that.

So was he a fraud or was he genuine? He was both IMO. If deceiving people got him what he wanted out of life then that is what he would do. And I far as I can tell nobody got hurt by those actions. Either confused or awakened....but not hurt. He didn't do it all the time of course, if that were the case he would've been found out a long time ago. People may not be on his level, but they're not stupid. The fact remains though, and I think it's self-evident based on the outcome of his life, that the ends justified the means. And the ends in this case is that he will go down in history as possibly the most influential occultist there ever was and also as somebody that no one could ever fully figure out.Those two will always go hand in hand because his intentions were genuine but he had to bend the rules from time to time to make those intentions reality.

When you can do what he did and produce a good, solid outcome, then you're a magician of the highest order. That's my take on it at least.

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