Ron Paul and Abortion " My thoughts" Please contribute

Originally posted by Achey

Originally posted by selfharmonise
reply to post by Achey

 

I dont necessarily disagree with much that you have said here.

I do disagree with those who have an inability to understand other peoples' reasoning for making a very difficult decision. I do disagree with a lack of understanding and empathy for anyone who has made the decision to abort.

From your statement, it's clear your friends did not have an easy time going through the process.

If abortions were illegal, what would have happened in your Indian friend's situation?

And for those who don't feel that way, adoption is always an option. Life offers everybody challenges and how we deal with them defines us. Those who use lack of loving childhood as a reason to allow abortion or poverty are forgetting this. And just getting rid of an inconvenience that happens to be a human life is very defining.

Could you really give a baby away for adoption after carrying it full term? I couldn't.

Why expect others to do so?

Could I have an abortion? I couldnt say yes and I couldnt say no. I would hate to prove myself wrong.

Abortion isnt convenient. It is not a kind process.

But surely a very early stage abortion is kinder than making a woman go through pregnancy and giving away the child?

If we are so caught up in the 'sanctity of life', then how can we eat meat and how can we support the death penalty and how can we support war? How can one person support bombing and murdering abortion doctors and in the next breath say that killing is wrong when it comes to a fertilised egg?

The hypocrisy of some moral standpoints is mindblowing.

Overpopulation is one of the greatest risks facing the world.

The focus shouldnt be on stopping abortions, the focus should be on controlling conception.

We're human, we make mistakes. If your friend was strong enough to have an abortion because she was too weak to stop drinking, then she knew she was not fit to care for a child. I admire her.

I refuse to judge any woman for having an abortion.

My family foster children who come from abusive homes. Often the children are developmentally stunted by their mother's alcohol or drug abuse, or purely because of the lack of interaction their families give them in their very early years.

Some of the children do not even know how to use a toilet, or how it feels to be clean and cared for.

These children rarely ever catch up with their peers developmentally, no matter how good the adoptive or foster care is. Their emotional reasoning and coping mechanisms tend to always remain less developed.

I watch these children suffer. A key reason they suffer is because of the perceived rejection of them by the biological parent.

There are too many children seeking foster care and adoption.

Often those children are developmentally unable to cope because of the poor parenting/antenatal behaviour of the mother/father.

I would rather that society allowed early term abortion < 8 weeks to women who felt they absolutely could not support a child.

I would also rather we focused on stronger contraceptive support for young women and men, so that they are equipped and informed on sex.

I dont think any one person on this thread wants the abortion rate to increase. Across the thread the prolife and prochoice common ground has pointed to the fact that we would all like to see the number of abortions reduced.

It is my personal belief, that to do this, we need to educate and support our sexually active youth/adults in responsible sexual behaviour. Contraception is the biggest weapon in reducing the abortion rate.

A balanced, fair and supportive approach needs to be metered out on a sensitive subject.

Forcing a woman to give birth against her will, then hand the child over to someone else is simplistic, arbitrary and cruel in my view.

Alternatively, that woman should have had access to good contraception, a strong support network, and in the worst case, an early term abortion if it was felt appropriate.

There is no absolute in this world. There's no easy answer, no black and white. It really is about shades of grey.

The abortion rates wont reduce by making abortion illegal. They'll reduce by making sure less women get pregnant until they're ready to conceive.

My vote is on Pro Choice. Luckily i live in Norway so i don't have to deal with those Christianity fundamentalist of Politics you guys have.

the thing is... it might be murder however isnt that the choice of the couple? stop poking on other buisinss, say i like the same sex, is that something that affect your life style? No ofcourse not. just let it be, think that someday all masturbators and Abortion sinners goes to hell, the way i guess you think of most of the population.

Religion should never be in Politics.

reply to post by Achey

This is the point though, the fact is abortion is the termination of a human life, thats a biological fact. That its not viable, or not yet feeling, or doesnt deserve rights, thats the opinion/belief.

That killing a human life alone is wrong, that is also your subjective opinion/belief. All morality is subjective.

Originally posted by Achey

Originally posted by milominderbinder

OK...here is why you are mentally ill.

1. You are appalled that some women are coerced, berated, or outright ordered to have abortions against their will.

2. You see no problem in coercing, berating, or outright ordering women to NOT have abortions.

Either way...taking that choice away from women is sexist and discriminatory.

Calling me mentally ill because i observe the fact and discriminate against opinions that justify murder is'nt very nice.

1. I am appalled at murder
2. I see no problem with a woman taking responsibility for her actions.

Im sorry that man cannot have children but if they could Id say the same thing, im not sure if that could possibly make you feel better and resind your sexist and discriminatory accusation but i feel murder is the greater crime than being sexist.

It's not about your opinions...it's about the fact that you can't see how schizophrenic and diametrically opposed the logic is that you are using to make them.

If it's "wrong' to force a woman to have an abortion against her will...isn't it equally "wrong" to prevent them from getting one also against her will?

This is precisely why "pro-choice" makes sense. It allows that you can fell however you want about the issue...but agrees that you will not impose that will upon others.

Seems rationale to me.

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Achey

 

This is the point though, the fact is abortion is the termination of a human life, thats a biological fact. That its not viable, or not yet feeling, or doesnt deserve rights, thats the opinion/belief.

That killing a human life alone is wrong, that is also your subjective opinion/belief. All morality is subjective.

EXACTLY!!!

Hence...perhaps each individual knows what's best for their own situation for fetus and parent(s) alike and we should just leave everybody alone and focus on something that actually matters....such as channeling that energy into making sure that our toxic soup of a planet will even be able to support life as we know it a scant 100 years down the road.

Originally posted by Psychedelica
My vote is on Pro Choice. Luckily i live in Norway so i don't have to deal with those Christianity fundamentalist of Politics you guys have.

the thing is... it might be murder however isnt that the choice of the couple? stop poking on other buisinss, say i like the same sex, is that something that affect your life style? No ofcourse not. just let it be, think that someday all masturbators and Abortion sinners goes to hell, the way i guess you think of most of the population.

Religion should never be in Politics.

As an American, I vote we toss the keys to the UN, the IMF, NATO, the WHO, and the WTO right over to a consortium of the Scandinavian countries and hope like hell they can save us from ourselves. At a certain point it's only responsible to acknowledge that we are not any longer capable of thinking clearly and appoint someone to make decisions in our stead.

I'm thinking Norway, Sweden, Finland, and maybe Denmark.

All in favor...say "Aye".

reply to post by yoyoyoyo


No one is "pro-abortion". Abortion is always a terrible thing and for most of the women who seek to abort, a very difficult decision. I am for choice because I am a pragmatist and am willing to face the truth of the human condition. Abortions have always happened and they always will.

The key to ending this argument is making sure EVERY girl is taught about her body and birth control. Abstinence only need not apply. It has always posed a cunundrum to me that the people who are the most vociferous regarding abortion are the ones who scream loudest regarding birth control and reproductive education for our young people.

And I would really appreciate it if those who stand up on the "life begins at concetption" soap box would go back to school and take a biology class or two. Life does not begin at conception, as both the egg and the sperm were alive when they fused. The resulting clump of undistinguished cells is not viable outside of its "incubator". It does not even resemble a human type being for several months. Most abortions occur in the first trimester during the time the zygote is not A) viable, B) recognizably human.

Originally posted by jaguarsky
reply to post by yoyoyoyo

 

No one is "pro-abortion". Abortion is always a terrible thing and for most of the women who seek to abort, a very difficult decision. I am for choice because I am a pragmatist and am willing to face the truth of the human condition. Abortions have always happened and they always will.

The key to ending this argument is making sure EVERY girl is taught about her body and birth control. Abstinence only need not apply. It has always posed a cunundrum to me that the people who are the most vociferous regarding abortion are the ones who scream loudest regarding birth control and reproductive education for our young people.

And I would really appreciate it if those who stand up on the "life begins at concetption" soap box would go back to school and take a biology class or two. Life does not begin at conception, as both the egg and the sperm were alive when they fused. The resulting clump of undistinguished cells is not viable outside of its "incubator". It does not even resemble a human type being for several months. Most abortions occur in the first trimester during the time the zygote is not A) viable, B) recognizably human.

Actually I have a Masters in Bio-Chem, what you learn each year you continue study is that the previous years lessons are dumbed down and generally incorrect and simplified so that one can be qualified for a specific profession. High school biology is not sufficient at all, and although i never practiced what i was trained in any professional capacity, i would have to say that on an observational level, it is very early that many of the recognizably human trains appear, within 4 weeks a brain, heart and spine is beginning to form and with that, the potential for pain and suffering.

Most women dont take a test on their due day for their period and usually wait a week or two prior to even testing. By this time it is 4 weeks. This is where many people are coming from who have an understanding of the biology, however simplified.

My arguments do not include left/right propaganda, religious belief, or sexist statements, or any new age kind of life being sacred dogma. I merely identify with the sort of person who if was pregnant and given the choice between my own life and my baby, would choose my baby. Abortion horrifies me.

Considering pregnancy a punishment is the most bazaar thing i can imagine, it wreaks of high school mentality and fear. 'Ewww.. ill get fat and have a discusting body', 'oh boys wont like me anymore', 'oh, i cant go party with my friends'. There is more to life is not just about having a nonstop party and decadence or making lots of money to buy things.

reply to post by Psychedelica

the thing is... it might be murder however isnt that the choice of the couple?

If it is a murder? Then absolutely not.

Dont try to frame the pro-choice movement as supporting murder. Abortion is morally and ethically very different from murder. If it wasnt, there would be no pro-choice.

reply to post by Achey


There are no brain waves before 20 weeks of fetal development. No brainwaves, no mind.

www.cirp.org...

Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and a neonatal electroencephalographic patterns, studies of cerebral metabolism, and the behavioral development of neonates. First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks.

Also, thalamocortical connections, required for ANY outside signal to reach higher brain (and thus mind) do not appear before the week 25. There is no possibility of suffering before this time.

paul-baxter.blogspot.com...

reply to post by Achey

within 4 weeks a brain, heart and spine is beginning to form

And those are organs unique to humans alone, and no other animal has said organs?

The fact is, all vertebrates early on in development look very similar.

Again, and I cannot say this enough, because it's the only thing that makes any sense on this issue:

If you are against abortion, don't have one, no one is forcing you to have an abortion because they are legal. At the same time don't force your ideology onto others, as that is just as irrational.

Originally posted by selfharmonise

Could you really give a baby away for adoption after carrying it full term? I couldn't.

Then you and anybody else with that attitude would probably be pleased they didnt have the abortion in the first place. Love rearranges priorities. I know my life changed dramatically when I had my first baby, i cant imagine life without my children.

...
Abortion isnt convenient. It is not a kind process.

Those where not my words.

But surely a very early stage abortion is kinder than making a woman go through pregnancy and giving away the child?

If we are so caught up in the 'sanctity of life', then how can we eat meat and how can we support the death penalty and how can we support war? How can one person support bombing and murdering abortion doctors and in the next breath say that killing is wrong when it comes to a fertilised egg?

The hypocrisy of some moral standpoints is mindblowing.

Its quite simple, it is murder, no gray area. This is the same as the murder commited durign war and the other things but worse since this person is a defenseless baby not even given a chance to experience life whatsoever

Overpopulation is one of the greatest risks facing the world.

The focus shouldnt be on stopping abortions, the focus should be on controlling conception.

Please go back to a former post i made in this thread regarding the depopulation agenda. There is an interesting video there regarding the above statement you have just made. I agree that concraception is good and should be used. My daughter gets her period, she's on the pill till she's ready to start a family, ill make sure she takes it every day as well. Parents should do this any parent that doesnt is being negligent.

We're human, we make mistakes. If your friend was strong enough to have an abortion because she was too weak to stop drinking, then she knew she was not fit to care for a child. I admire her.

You dont know her, she laughed about it.

I refuse to judge any woman for having an abortion.

But youd judge somebody for commiting murder of an adult?

There are too many children seeking foster care and adoption.

As i stated in another post earlier, this is a problem within the adoption system and nothing to do with abortion. My sister had to pay $20k and wait 5 years to adopt. No reason other than bureaucracy and unreasonable criteria, eliminate this and you eliminate the problem.

Often those children are developmentally unable to cope because of the poor parenting/antenatal behaviour of the mother/father.

And is their life less valuable because of this? Should they not be entitled to live? Sounds like eugenics to me.

It is my personal belief, that to do this, we need to educate and support our sexually active youth/adults in responsible sexual behaviour. Contraception is the biggest weapon in reducing the abortion rate.

I agree

Forcing a woman to give birth against her will, then hand the child over to someone else is simplistic, arbitrary and cruel in my view.

Nobody is forcing them to do anything, its a matter of letter nature run its course. It wasnt like somebody forced them not to use contraception. Why cant they parents take more responsibility and get their kids on the pill. For this I do blame religious piety.

The abortion rates wont reduce by making abortion illegal. They'll reduce by making sure less women get pregnant until they're ready to conceive.

Look at the figures in the previous source I gave for pre 1970. I think you see that statement is entirely wrong. Abortion rates where less than 1% before it was legal, it is currently 24%

reply to post by yoyoyoyo


Hi yo,

There is a place for control and that is before conception happens.
One of the major aspects of abortion and birth control in general is connected to overall population.
The government sell is, Americans should balance the population by limiting their birth rate.
Yet they then allow other countries to flood us with low cost illegal and legals
for gardeners, nannies, field workers, doctors, gas station and motel operators. etc.
American kids can't even find a house to paint or a lawn to trim on their summer breaks. Let alone their parents.
They leave the country wide open to outsiders that practice no control at all.
So in other words if you do not produce prodigy the outsiders will.
Your vote and resources will dwindle before your eyes by pure attrition.
If you do not fill the bio space, there are BILLIONS that will jump at the chance.
cheers ljb

Ok, I've been reading most of the posts in this thread, and most of them have nothing to do with Ron Paul. I was wondering why this thread turned into an abortion debate thread, and why the mods haven't closed this thread due to the high number of off topic posts that again have nothing to do with Ron Paul and everything to do with an abortion debate. Can we have this thread closed and just start an abortion debate thread that does not include any political figures names being associated with it? Because I'm beginning to think that the whole point of keeping this thread alive is to make sure that people associate abortion with Ron Paul subconciously. Thanks mods in advance.

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Achey

 

This is the point though, the fact is abortion is the termination of a human life, thats a biological fact. That its not viable, or not yet feeling, or doesnt deserve rights, thats the opinion/belief.

That killing a human life alone is wrong, that is also your subjective opinion/belief. All morality is subjective.

Well thats debatable. Is Killing a human right or wrong, or is it just a matter of opinion. Its what this is all about really. Generally speaking of course. Its wrong to kill based on the situation, was it self defense, was it premeditated. I dunno, ask yourself. Do you think murder being wrong is a matter of opinion, seriously?

reply to post by Achey


So what does this have to do with Ron Paul? The title of the thread should be changed to "The great abortion debate" .....mods?

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
reply to post by yoyoyoyo

 

Hi yo,

There is a place for control and that is before conception happens.
One of the major aspects of abortion and birth control in general is connected to overall population.
The government sell is, Americans should balance the population by limiting their birth rate.
Yet they then allow other countries to flood us with low cost illegal and legals
for gardeners, nannies, field workers, doctors, gas station and motel operators. etc.
American kids can't even find a house to paint or a lawn to trim on their summer breaks. Let alone their parents.
They leave the country wide open to outsiders that practice no control at all.
So in other words if you do not produce prodigy the outsiders will.
Your vote and resources will dwindle before your eyes by pure attrition.
If you do not fill the bio space, there are BILLIONS that will jump at the chance.
cheers ljb

Absolutely, with the falling population of the US, governments have had to allow immigration to fill the jobs once taken by the now aging population. The birthrate is so low, i think last i read for the US, was 1.3 per woman maybe? Im not sure Id have to look it up, but its been constantly falling since the 70's and even with the all of the abortions that have happened since the 70s the US would still be shrinking if they where born.

This is just a small part of the depopulation agenda thats been well sold, im certain that all of the pro choice groups are well funded by the Gates, Rockafella's, and Ted Turner.

Originally posted by LaborofLove
reply to post by yoyoyoyo

 

Abortion is murder, I agree but a murder is to be considered as a means of self preservation sometimes. In some instances a woman is in no way able to take care of the child. Yes it is a viable life. Would I do it myself? I really don't know if I could ever. But some people are unable to raise a family, or unwilling even. Sometimes you see a situation where a woman has three children from three different men and all she is is a woman in constant labour as none of those men are anywhere to be seen. I admire a woman who can think that raising a child on her own is easy. It never is, you need support, you need endless money, you need sleep too. These things are not considered when abortion is pushed to the side, like you are doing. I really believe that the woman who decides to have an abortion is not a mother and her declaration of this is through the abortion. I hate to say that I agree with it, but I do agree with the fact that some people are just not meant to have children. Do I prefer that abortion is done? No I don't! I simply cannot see the reason why condoms are not more widely used. I do believe that most birth control pills are methods of abortion anyway. But condoms? For God sake! In this day and age you would think that people will at least be consenting enough to protect their lives. So why do you think abortion is so disgusting? It is mankind on the whole that is disguting! After all this time with the absolute freedom we have to excercise our rights, we still choose to be careless enough to warrant the killing of babes.

murder? how can a piece of flesh, that is inside and is an attached part of a woman be murdered...how about this...ALL boys upon birth have their testicles closed off....at the time of marriage, only then will a doctor reverse the procedure for procreation...see how many takers you have for that

Originally posted by AutOmatIc
reply to post by Achey

 

So what does this have to do with Ron Paul? The title of the thread should be changed to "The great abortion debate" .....mods?

edit on 13-4-2012 by AutOmatIc because: spelling

Hi,

Yes i agree, this thread did start out talking about his opinions and the policys he'd probably take regarding it but the OP didnt really make that the primary focus for the debate.

I have noticed however many ppl repeating statements made by earlier posters which have already been addressed as well as trolls who just ignore replys and name call.

reply to post by jimmyx


And yet another post that has nothing to do with Ron Paul and everything to do with debating the topic of just abortion. I vote again for thread title change and moving this from "political madness" to another more relevant area.