Ron Paul and Abortion " My thoughts" Please contribute

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by selfharmonise

 

"I have seen men push their agenda on trying to stop an abortion, not because they want the child, but they want a claim on the woman. "

Lay a claim, The woman let that man have a claim when they took off their pants and had intercourse.
You women will just make excuse after excuse for the women and not think twice about that child's life their ending or not ending not even letting begin. What a joke.

edit on 12-4-2012 by yoyoyoyo because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-4-2012 by yoyoyoyo because: (no reason given)

So women are 'spitoons', that by 'marking' with your seed gives you ownership rights? She lays down and takes it from a man, so she belongs to that man?

Women are purely vessels to you then? You think a fertilised egg has more rights than a living human being that is your equal?

This is an evergreen anger and arrogance topic... which of course... I have a few thoughts about that will casue me to throw my 25¢ in to the mix.

I'm "pro-life" if I had to be something or ruther. That said...

1.) It is an indisputable fact that every man on these boards can't say with 100% certainty, they could handle having a baby. If they were the sole care giver, I can say with certainty that it would be the challenge of their lives, to make good for that little being, and many would fail epically.

2.) Whatever creator there is or might be, made women the bearers and caregivers of offspring for a reason. If men were responsible for the survival of our offspring, the human race would be a distant blip in the long gone mists of antiquity, and known only to the mind of G-d. Women are, overall, tougher than men...

Religious folk clucking and raising hell, ought to spend less time arguing about abortion rights, and devote ALL their spare time to offering to help newly pregnant women decide to keep their babies, and back that ministry up by helping and providing emotional and practical help going forward, whether those women "believe right or not" FOR THE DURATION. That would be the Christian thing to do. You are not in charge of outcomes. You either follow Christ or you do not. If you do, you take the actions and leave the outcomes up to the God whom you are not. That job is already taken.

Jesus the Christ didn't make those suffering take a litmus test for Christianity. There WAS no Christianity as he practiced it. He spoke of "The Word" but didn't pass out New Testaments (for obvious reasons... although this comment I'm sure will stump some Christians...). He didn't even pass out Old Testaments... but he DID give the religious adherents of the time a whole lot of hell over their "scripturally reinforced hypocrisy." Time passes but human beings are predictably the same.

Way less judgement, and a WHOLE HEAP MORE action and follow up, would go a long way to making in-experienced potential parents bridge the gap of terror they face when realizing they are with child, and would make a whole lot more of them willing to follow through and become parents.

3.) I saw a bumper sticker a few years back that made me say "Wow." Because I knew it was true.

"If men could be pregnant... abortion would be a sacrament"

I also tend to believe, that if Jesus showed up next month, his life would be in grave danger, at the hands of Old Testament thumping Christians. If there was an attempt to kill him it would be at the hands of the zealots... no doubt pointing to scripture and saying "no he's not the Messiah... he couldn't be... look what the book says!".

That's how it's always been. The "religious leaders" of the time, always cause trouble/persecute/assassinate (for) those who serve at God's pleasure. If you really knew your scripture... and you stop and think carefully, those who believe in a literal translation of scripture should be very afraid of repeating the cyle again.

Jesus told you how he would appear to you, and how you should treat him when he does, and in what common form he is constantly among us. Frightened newly pregnant women are not who you think they are, are they?

How well are you following Christ's example?

If you don't believe in abortion; DON'T GET ONE!
Ron Paul is grossed out by seeing fetuses 7&8 months into nearly full term thrown in the trash while fighting to save preemies, -blame him?

You must be sick and crazy to force your beliefs on everyone else.

This was paradise we turned into a toilet because all these idiots had to breed beyond any expectation of responsibility to humanity, the child, society, or the planet, ALL of which are fouled beyond repair.

Keep churning out one litter after another till there are so many mutated, dependant idiots to shovel into the 'no child left behind' disaster welfare state of gov't protected mental and physical invalids. PERFECT for church, state, big pharma, and every crutch institution any thinking human beings abhor.

Don't come crying to us later, we're sick of trying to educate you.

reply to post by dasman888


Dasman888 - I really enjoyed your point of view on this. I dont think I have seen it put as well as that in a long, long time.

Your point on moving effort away from judgement to service to others is excellent.

reply to post by Star128


Star128 - yep. You're right. Your point on education is potentially a good one.

Read back through the quality of much of the content of the posts by pro-lifers and anti-abortion proponents.

There is a marked difference.

This sums up much of the anti abortion movement for me..

Originally posted by selfharmonise

Originally posted by Achey
To argue that MOST WOMEN are not using abortion as a form of contraception is naive to say the very least.

Here is the statistics for 2000 (the most recent complete set of data)

Births 4058814
Abortions 1313000
Miscarriage 1029000

Source

Thats 3561 abortions a DAY

In many peoples eyes, mine included, thats genocide occurring, all those who don't agree, please.. you cant possibly claim that this is anything but abortions used as contraception. How can you write this sociopathic narcissistic drivel to people who believe this is going on, regardless of your own opinion.

How many people do you personally know who have had abortions, and what was their reason for it?

I know several, one her husband forced her into it because it was not convenient , he said 'she only cried for a month', apparently Indian wives do as their husbands tell them. Another woman who has had 7 abortions and a total of 11 pregnancies, and one who had plenty of support but just didn't want to give up drinking, probably more that have not admitted it.

The option for me is something I would never consider. For me the whole 'my body' thing is sickeningly narcissistic and those who give up themselves to save their baby are amazing, the other end of the spectrum. I wish most people where somewhere in between but the figures don't lie.

I think that raising your baby and being responsible for your own children and behavior, accepting the consequences for your actions is what being an adult is about.

reply to post by Achey


I dont necessarily disagree with much that you have said here.

I do disagree with those who have an inability to understand other peoples' reasoning for making a very difficult decision. I do disagree with a lack of understanding and empathy for anyone who has made the decision to abort.

From your statement, it's clear your friends did not have an easy time going through the process.

If abortions were illegal, what would have happened in your Indian friend's situation?

Originally posted by selfharmonise

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by selfharmonise

 

"I have seen men push their agenda on trying to stop an abortion, not because they want the child, but they want a claim on the woman. "

Lay a claim, The woman let that man have a claim when they took off their pants and had intercourse.
You women will just make excuse after excuse for the women and not think twice about that child's life their ending or not ending not even letting begin. What a joke.

edit on 12-4-2012 by yoyoyoyo because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-4-2012 by yoyoyoyo because: (no reason given)

So women are 'spitoons', that by 'marking' with your seed gives you ownership rights? She lays down and takes it from a man, so she belongs to that man?

Women are purely vessels to you then? You think a fertilised egg has more rights than a living human being that is your equal?

Jesus Christ.... "lay a claim"??

Ladies...On behalf of all men and Americans everywhere, please accept my apologies. I am deeply embarrassed.

...Somebody has to say it.

Originally posted by milominderbinder

Originally posted by Achey
To argue that MOST WOMEN are not using abortion as a form of contraception is naive to say the very least.

Here is the statistics for 2000 (the most recent complete set of data)

Births 4058814
Abortions 1313000
Miscarriage 1029000

Source

Thats 3561 abortions a DAY

In many peoples eyes, mine included, thats genocide occurring, all those who don't agree, please.. you cant possibly claim that this is anything but abortions used as contraception. How can you write this sociopathic narcissistic drivel to people who believe this is going on, regardless of your own opinion.

You are so amazingly bad at math it's scary.

The number of abortions per day is irrelevant unless compared in proportion to the total amount of potential pregnancies, given that we must factor in birth control.

There are approximately 200 million sexually active adults between the ages 18-49 (more or less child bearing years) and on average they have sex 2.5 times per week or so.

So...in a given year that's approximately 26 billion possible opportunities for a pregnancy. Of those total possibles...only 1.2 million end in abortion every year.

That works out to being .004615%. Far from being an "epidemic"...the frequency of abortions could increase by a factor of 500X (i.e. 5,000% MORE ABORTIONS) and we would STILL be well under the 1% range.

I really think we should stop being so alarmist here.

The subject matter here is not contraception, although i am suggesting that many women are using abortion as a form of contraception.

And Im very sorry for you if you dont think that 3500 deaths a day isn't an epidemic, according to the WHO 10,000 a year with swine flu is a pandemic. Abortion murder's more than that every 4 days.

It is a human life regardless of how you look at it.

Indisputable Fact
1> Its human, be it a bundle of human cells or a 7 month grown fully formed human baby.
2> Its alive

Just because a judge said it was okay and set a precedent doesn't change these facts. And the decision in the 70's came just about the same time the population bomb was written. Im sure that was probably a factor when this was decided.

Off topic
Im interested in meeting these 40+'s who are in their childbearing years. Since the population in the us is aging and not being replaced (the US population is aging and shrinking btw and still would be if abortion was illegal), im sure the 40+ people you mention make up a large portion of your 200 million. Why do you think there is a need for immigration?

[SNIP]

1. You are appalled that some women are coerced, berated, or outright ordered to have abortions against their will.

2. You see no problem in coercing, berating, or outright ordering women to NOT have abortions.

Either way...taking that choice away from women is sexist and discriminatory.



Mod edit: Removed personal attacks.

Please remember that civility and decorum is required at all times.

Originally posted by selfharmonise
reply to post by Achey

 

I dont necessarily disagree with much that you have said here.

I do disagree with those who have an inability to understand other peoples' reasoning for making a very difficult decision. I do disagree with a lack of understanding and empathy for anyone who has made the decision to abort.

From your statement, it's clear your friends did not have an easy time going through the process.

If abortions were illegal, what would have happened in your Indian friend's situation?

From what i gathered he marched her into a clinic run by an indian doctor who basically ignored everything she said. This was the same man who said that looking into my daughters eye's was like looking into the eye's of god when she when he visited us in hospital when she was born. Hard to believe he was like this, but just how it is, im sure if he had of seen his child for the first time he'd have been happy about it regardless of convenience.

That moment when you first hold your first baby and realize this is a whole other person that is depending on me for everything is a life altering moment for most.

And for those who don't feel that way, adoption is always an option. Life offers everybody challenges and how we deal with them defines us. Those who use lack of loving childhood as a reason to allow abortion or poverty are forgetting this. And just getting rid of an inconvenience that happens to be a human life is very defining.

Originally posted by Star128
If you don't believe in abortion; DON'T GET ONE!
Ron Paul is grossed out by seeing fetuses 7&8 months into nearly full term thrown in the trash while fighting to save preemies, -blame him?

You must be sick and crazy to force your beliefs on everyone else.

This is the point though, the fact is abortion is the termination of a human life, thats a biological fact.

That its not viable, or not yet feeling, or doesnt deserve rights, thats the opinion/belief. People are educated in this belief as if it is the fact because of a court ruling in the 70's, and not the belief.

In ancient times it was legal to be a pedophile and keep slaves more recently. Laws do not make something right or wrong.

Originally posted by Achey

And Im very sorry for you if you dont think that 3500 deaths a day isn't an epidemic, according to the WHO 10,000 a year with swine flu is a pandemic. Abortion murder's more than that every 4 days.

No need to be sorry....just work on your math skills and your understanding of English. A pandemic is not an epidemic...that's why they are spelled differently. Likewise, given that swine flu is a viral pathogen and not a specific action it's astoundingly logical why the WHO would pick 10,000 as being critical mass for a pandemic. It has nothing to do with the amount of people infected...it's about the ability to contain. What the WHO is saying is that once you go from "patient zero" to "patient 10,000" you will have a pandemic because at that point it will likely be impossible to contain. Algorithmically speaking, that is.

It is a human life regardless of how you look at it.

Indisputable Fact
1> Its human, be it a bundle of human cells or a 7 month grown fully formed human baby.
2> Its alive

Exactly. Which is precisely why I feel we should condemn these innocent souls to a lifetime of being unwanted in the first place. We aren't that cruel to stray dogs...and we shouldn't be that cruel and sadistic to humans either.

Just because a judge said it was okay and set a precedent doesn't change these facts. And the decision in the 70's came just about the same time the population bomb was written. Im sure that was probably a factor when this was decided.

Correct....I didn't know anybody was disputing the facts that a fetus is composed of cells which are both human in origin and alive. Likewise, I agree that were a judge to state that a fetus was made of some other material other than human cells or if they denied that these cells were alive...it wouldn't change a thing. To my knowledge...no judge in the history of the world has made this claim.
Similarly, I'm sure you can agree that just because the Bible says that a guy named Jesus could magically transubstantiate matter, reanimate the dead, and heal lepers and blind people it simply doesn't change the facts that these things are all quite simply and demonstrably impossible.

Off topic
Im interested in meeting these 40+'s who are in their childbearing years. Since the population in the us is aging and not being replaced (the US population is aging and shrinking btw and still would be if abortion was illegal), im sure the 40+ people you mention make up a large portion of your 200 million. Why do you think there is a need for immigration?

Is this a question or a statement? Are you expressing doubt that humans in their 40's can have children or expressing your desire to be introduced to some middle-aged folks who still know how to get it on? I understand abortion apparently doesn't figure into your understanding of population decline...but what the hell does immigration have to do with ANYTHING?
It's not that it's "off-topic"...It's that it's almost entirely incoherent.

Originally posted by milominderbinder

OK...here is why you are mentally ill.

1. You are appalled that some women are coerced, berated, or outright ordered to have abortions against their will.

2. You see no problem in coercing, berating, or outright ordering women to NOT have abortions.

Either way...taking that choice away from women is sexist and discriminatory.

Calling me mentally ill because i observe the fact and discriminate against opinions that justify murder is'nt very nice.

1. I am appalled at murder
2. I see no problem with a woman taking responsibility for her actions.

Im sorry that man cannot have children but if they could Id say the same thing, im not sure if that could possibly make you feel better and resind your sexist and discriminatory accusation but i feel murder is the greater crime than being sexist.