It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Waaay off topic my friend....
Creationism and evolution co-exist... Christians just have to move the idea back a few billion years... evolution is a slow process.... Not instantaineous as the bible suggests.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon
There was no war in heaven ( in my humble opinion)...
Do you think the angels kicked out went peacefully? It doesn't say they were politely asked to leave friend.
This is truth... but its not "another place"... you return to the physical world for another go... because said person has not learned what it takes to live as God wants...
Why would they do anything to get themselves kicked out of "heaven"...?
If that were the case Jesus never would have had to die for our sins
He could have stayed on the throne.
And secondly, how can i pay off my sin debt to the Father is I reincarnate and add new sins to my former life's sins?
You already stated a man cannot be perfect to inherit eternal life himself.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon
Why would they do anything to get themselves kicked out of "heaven"...?
Rebellion. Following their leader Lucifer. And He was kicked out because of pride.
"I will be like the Most High"
I don't really know why. It doesn't matter to me really. I can't fathom why Eve would be deceived by the serpent either when her and Adam were clothed in light and walked in the garden with Jesus every day and He only gave them 1 rule.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon
Waaay off topic my friend....
Creationism and evolution co-exist... Christians just have to move the idea back a few billion years... evolution is a slow process.... Not instantaineous as the bible suggests.
I totally agree about it being off topic, I suggested we not start a while ago because it's a massive rabbit trail. And I completely disagree with Liberal Christians, evolution is inconsistent with Genesis 3. There couldn't be billions of years of death and natural selection if death was a result of the fall from Genesis 3.
Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical
If that were the case Jesus never would have had to die for our sins
It was the fathers will... He didn't want to die for anything... he wanted to live and continue on... But this wasn't to be...
He could have stayed on the throne.
It was not his kingdom...
[
And secondly, how can i pay off my sin debt to the Father is I reincarnate and add new sins to my former life's sins?
You owe him everything and nothing... At birth your sins from your previous life are resolved save the worst ones... which will manifest within your lifetime... or even at birth depending on what YOU deserve... that is up to him...
You already stated a man cannot be perfect to inherit eternal life himself.
No i said perfection is attainable... and we already have eternal life...it is Gods Gift...
WE always have and always will...
Originally posted by Akragon
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon
Why would they do anything to get themselves kicked out of "heaven"...?
Rebellion. Following their leader Lucifer. And He was kicked out because of pride.
"I will be like the Most High"
I don't really know why. It doesn't matter to me really. I can't fathom why Eve would be deceived by the serpent either when her and Adam were clothed in light and walked in the garden with Jesus every day and He only gave them 1 rule.
See what i mean... it makes no sense...
Now logically... IF satan exists, he has a job his creator gave him... he is the deciever and his position is to test us... as he did Jesus
Tempt us to turn from the creator... correct?
It just all goes to show that Christians could not hold an organzed Forum discussion on anything without breaking into every excuse under the Sun to drift off discussion's target theme, generally with the intentions of derailing the entire theme.
Christians are inherently destructive of logic and order, and maintain an extreme level of ignorance and trumped up non-sense from organized religion's marrage to Satan.
What did Jesus say to the apostles minutes after He had transformed a whore into an evangelist with one conversation?
"Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of Him that sent me, and to finish His work."
Or how about this:
"For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me."
Which words of Jesus did you mean when you told people to only believe and trust what He said in the Bible. I'm having a hard time finding one's you agree with when you post.
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
Almost right, I owe Him everything and HE owes me nothing. Sorry, I have seen firsthand what countries the believe in reincarnation and karma do. When Christians go into these nations they see squalor everywhere, children eating from garbage cans, no one will help a soul out because they think if they are having a difficult life they are working off karma from a past life and do not want to interfere with another person's ascension.
It's absolutely disgusting. Christians go into those places and help people, not New Agers and Bhuddists and Hindus.
When I say eternal life you know I'm not speaking in a general sense, so please don't answer me in a general sense. I know the spirit and soul live eternally. I meant the context Jesus used the term, to be eternally present with the Father in heaven. And if perfection is attainable Christ would have said that. He didn't attain it, HE was perfect sinless Lamb of God who came to take away the sins of the world.
It doesn't make sense, neither does it make sense that Peter denied Christ, or that the Pharisees didn't see Him as the Messiah, it doesn't make sense that a Man raised Himself from the dead, if any of it made sense none of us would have FAITH. And without faith we cannot please God.
That's not logical for one, that's a false dichotomy fallacy and for two just because God is always 100 steps ahead of satan's plans doesn't mean God gave him that job. It means He thwarts everything the devil does.
I agree there, really to deceive us with temptations. But it's not the "job" God gave him like he is some sort of faithful servant always doing the Father's will like His Son Jesus. He hates God and hates you and I because we are created in God's image and likeness and we are thrilled to do his old job, praise and worship leader in heaven.
Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical
I don't quote exclusively from the bible... as a matter of fact i try to avoid using it when posting unless its necessary...
You know he begged the father to "take this cup from me"...
Correct... thats what i said..
Rubbish...
And since when is this discussion about who is out to save the world anyways?
Did he not say "be perfect like your father in heaven is perfect"?
And again... HOW does his death take away the sin of the world?
So you admit the bible makes little sense in some cases so you stick to "faith"?
He didn't raise himself... God did... And not Jesus himself... your God in the flesh...
Peter denied him out of fear... that is obvious... some rock eh.
Speculation... the bible says very little about Satan or lucifer...
And if you look in the "satanic bible"
Taking advantage of peoples fear of the unknown for conversion.
You only know God hates by the OT... and paul... I believe God is above such petty things...
You don't know that God hates satan either... or that he even exists....
Does "necessary" mean positionally supportive?
Study the Passover, it was the cup of wrath. His Father's will was for Him to die for the sins of the world, just as He says in Isaiah 52:7-53. And Jesus said numerous times He was there to do that, and had come to Jerusalem "for this hour".
And said He was there to do the will of His Father, and "to finish it". Then before giving up the ghost He said "It is finished!"
I asked you what was the purpose for Him leaving His throne in heaven then. Then you said it wasn't His kingdom. Then I showed that He said it was His kingdom He came down from. Yes it was His kingdom, and it was His throne.
So why did He leave His throne if man could work out their own salvation apart from Him incarnating as a man to die?
If you don't think so travel sometime to one of these nations. And I never denied there wasn't poor in other countries. I'm talking about the poor in countries dominated by reincarnation doctrine. Christians don't go over there with Jack Chick tracts and drop them over the land from airplane like Nazi propaganda.
We go there with blankets, food, water, clothing, medicine, we build shelters, schools, houses, lay water lines, et cetra, et ceta, et cetera. You have absolutely no clue whatsoever what you're talking about.
It's not about saving the world, the context is what the doctrine of reincarnation does to the actions of the people who live in those nations. No one wants to help out a suffering person for fear of prolonging their ascension. and if one does help out it's inconsistent with their stated beliefs.
Giving these people a helping hand, showing them the hands and feet of Jesus Christ is the catalyst for them wanting to accept Christ. Seeing His love in His ambassadors.
Didn't we go over this already? He wasn't saying it's possible to be perfect. The man asked what he himself could or had to do to inherit eternal life (in heaven in the presence of God).
Apart from the redeeming grace of God one does need to be perfect to inherit eternal life. (in heaven in the presence of God) I strongly suggest plan B. If you've never once made a mistake, keep it up till you die. Then you can bump Jesus off the throne when you get there.
What did the people have to do in the brass serpent account to live from the serpent bites? Jesus told the Pharisee that was a picture of Him.
I said that on purpose. Depends on which verse you read:
The Father:
The Son: (John 2:19-21, 10:17-18),
The Spirit: (Rom 8:11) or
God: (Heb 13:20,Acts13:30,17:31)
Trinity +1
It's not speculation, Lucifer isn't faithfully doing the will of God at all times.
Impossible for Him to be Holy and Righteous and NOT hate sin and wickedness.
Get saved someday and start radically serving Jesus Christ, you'll find out how real he is very quickly.
Whos Wrath?
And as i've said it WAS the Fathers will that he die.... Im saying that dying is NOT what he wanted to do...
I misunderstood... I thought you meant his throne on earth...
But this idea that the state of their country is because of what you call "reincarnation doctrine" is nonsense...
That same doctrine you speak of also says we should help our fellow man... It says nothing about not helping someone because you'll prevent their ascension...
Please refer to the above post for an answer to said BS...
one does not "inherit" eternal life... it is already given..
And i have no agenda of bumping anyone off of any throne... i am who i am... nothing more.
explain with references please... im sure we've been over this
John 2:19-21, 10:17-18...
And you know this... how?
He created the light and the dark... I believe God would be indifferent to sin and wickedness as you can clearly see all over the world...
No need...
The Father's. The Father placed all the sins of mankind on His Son and judged them right there at the cross. Think of the Abraham story with Issac, there was no angel of the Lord to stop Him from sacrificing His Son for us. Abraham was acting out prophecy.
He always desires to do the Father's will, and finish it. He said that was His "meat". If it was the Father's will it was also His will. That "cup" wasn't the cross.
I also said that if anyone acts contrary to that, or does help a fellow person then their beliefs are internally inconsistent.
Calm down, I'm just attacking one of your idols, not you friend.
Acts wasn't written by Paul. It was written by the same dude that wrote Luke, Titus's brother. And most scholars say Hebrews wasn't either.
What did Jesus say? Lucifer doesn't do God's will. Example: If someone gets cancer, is it God's fault? God doesn't have cancer, how can He give someone something He doesn't have?
You cannot get diamonds unless coal is crushed, wine unless grapes are crushed, fine gold unless it's purified with fire.
Practical example: There is a certain disease where the victim cannot feel pain. That person must have someone with them 24/7 to watch them at all times because they could hurt themselves and never know it. Their parents pray nightly that God will show mercy and allow their child to feel pain.
And you're forgetting this dude satan and his demonic legion, they are the authors of all the pain and suffering, but God uses it to glorify Himself in all situations.
All will not be saved, most will perish in eternal darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth.
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
And i have no idols...
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon
And i have no idols...
You're missing the biggest one. SELF
We all have it, I have to cast mine to the floor daily and break it to pieces.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon
Until you see it, it's still there.
We all have it. Me too friend, me too.
Pride isn't a virtue, it's a vice.