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Did the Christians lie about Jesus Resurrection? Jesus did not die by Crucifiction!

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posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:24 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 



He did not need to die to give his message... but he needed to die to return to them.... to prove life after death...


He died so our sins would be forgiven, He said that at the last supper account in Matthew. Also it's the reason in Isaiah 52:7- 53. And John the Baptist said that when he introduced Him as the "Lamb of God". Gabriel told Mary that also when he announced her pregnancy.


edit on 10-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


So again i ask...

How does his death... absorbe or resolve the sins of the world?

How can you become perfect through his death?




posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:28 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 



heheh... you still don't know me eh...

It won't piss me off... few things do...

So feel free... watch that Wrath though my friend....


Wrath?

You're my bro, disagreeing about this won't change that. Our friendship certainly isn't based upon this so our disagreement won't change anything.

It was a jest anyways, I'm not really going to keep calling it a "POLE", that would only confuse peeps. lol



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


So again i ask...

How does his death... absorbe or resolve the sins of the world?

How can you become perfect through his death?



We don't become perfect, I'll be the first to tell you that. and you know from watching us Christians that we certainly are NOT!!! We just get to be forgiven, and God is still Just because He judged all human sin already.

Remember my Socrates quote?

It's called "Penalsubstitutionary Atonement", He takes my sin, and in exchanges gifts me His righteousness under the law. I'm NOT righteous, I'm declared righteous because of His faithfulness.

You're gonna get your money's worth today, that's a $65 dollar word. lol



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


So again i ask...

How does his death... absorbe or resolve the sins of the world?

How can you become perfect through his death?



We don't become perfect, I'll be the first to tell you that. and you know from watching us Christians that we certainly are NOT!!! We just get to be forgiven, and God is still Just because He judged all human sin already.

Remember my Socrates quote?

It's called "Penalsubstitutionary Atonement", He takes my sin, and in exchanges gifts me His righteousness under the law. I'm NOT righteous, I'm declared righteous because of His faithfulness.

You're gonna get your money's worth today, that's a $65 dollar word. lol


Perhaps this is one of the issues with your "everyday Christian"... You accept the fact that we are all sinners but reject the fact that you do not have to sin...

Yes... you are forgiven... but all are forgiven, even the greatest of sinners will have their day in front of God... and be judged for their actions in THIS life...

Perfection is attainable.... If it wasn't, he wouldn't have suggested it...




posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:41 PM
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reply to post by MagnumOpus
 



Did he die from only 7 hours when others last 3 days. Logic says NO!


He gave up His Spirit freely when His mission was done. His mission wasn't to die a long agonizing death, it was to make atonement for sin. When that was finished He said it is finished, and "gave up" His ghost.

Also, death could be prolonged for people Rome really, really detested so they would make a seat and nail the man's penis to the seat with a 7 inch spike to prevent them from lifting themselves off the seat to just asphyxiate and die. Also the presence of the "clear fluid/water" along with the blood when the soldier thrust the spear in was evidence that his death was actually from "hypovolemic shock". (hypo = blood. volemic = volume) Which was massive blood loss which results in pleural and pericardial effusions, or ion layman's terms, built so much pressure up around his heart that it was prevented from pumping. Think of the fluid that accumulate in a burn that makes a bubble that extends the burnt skin away from the other flesh of your body.

The presence of all that clear fluid is how the Pathologists detail the exact cause of death as "hypovolemic shock via pericardial and pleural effusions".


edit on 10-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by MagnumOpus
 



You should notice that I used the term "Climate Change", which is not the same as "Global Warming". Climate Change speaks to the issues of alteration of the energy absorption distribution on the planet, not a general overall heating effect.


Increased Sun activity. Other planets are warming as well. Occam's razor.


There is an increase in solar irradiance, and that is a "Global Warming" associated effect. This is a small effect compared to the Climate Change issues.

Solar Irradiance is not a Climate Change effect from antoropologic effects. The Climate Change effects speak to the changes in the energy deposition distribution on the planet due to the changes in cloud formation patterns that affect IR deposition into the Southern Oceans due to anthropolic effects.

All the loss of cloud seeding effects from the Southern Oceans causes some of these effects called out in Revelation per things like more damaging storms, loss of the seasons, and ocean's dying. Revelations also speaks to Jesus returning being connected to cloud formations returning.

So, these Freon, Ozone Hole issues, and Climate Change effects speak to the issues of cloud formation problems over the Southern Oceans and this effect then connected with the Second Coming theme.

Jesus is going to return the cloud Gaia effects to the planet, or so it sounds from the imagery theme.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 



You accept the fact that we are all sinners but reject the fact that you do not have to sin...


Absolutely false, if I didn't see my need for His remedy for my sin I would not have run to His cross for the redemption He offered for it.

I'm a sinner. Just a repentant one.


but all are forgiven


NO! Jesus didn't teach that. He said most would be in Hell. There is only one atonement offered, and it takes bowing that knee now instead of doing it on judgment day. You should just do it now and accept His forgiveness and Lordship. You're going to do it one day anyways whether you like it or not, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.




edit on 10-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by MagnumOpus
 



Did he die from only 7 hours when others last 3 days. Logic says NO!


Think of the fluid that accumulate in a burn that makes a bubble that extends the burnt skin away from the other flesh of your body.




Most educated people know that the clear liquid that forms under the skin from a burn or via excess friction to the skin is Lymph Fluid. So this bubble that you speak about is clear liquid that looks almost like water, but is lymph fluid.

It is made in the Spleen and if someone pokes a hole in that it also leaks this same clear lymph fluid that looks like water.


It will also be associated with the severe whipping Jesus got and there would be whip burns all over Jesus torso, all of them loaded with lymph fluid trying to repair the damage to the skin, just like the ones that happen from a fire burn. So, it would be expected to see lots of lymph fluids leaking out of any holes poked in the skin.



Go to the grocery store and buy a bucket of Chicken Livers and watch them for a week and you'll find the blood never separates into water, at least in the weeks after the chicken stopped living and the blood and liver was tossed into the bucket for sale.


edit on 10-4-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Utter made up non-sense to dodge reality of lymph system clear liquid effusions.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon
 



You accept the fact that we are all sinners but reject the fact that you do not have to sin...


Absolutely false, if I didn't see my need for His remedy for my sin I would not have run to His cross for the redemption He offered for it.

I'm a sinner. Just a repentant one.


but all are forgiven


NO! Jesus didn't teach that. He said most would be in Hell. There is only one atonement offered, and it take bowing that knee now instead of doing it on judgment day.


edit on 10-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)


Im more inclined to take "hell" as another incarnation in the physical world... not the firey torture of myth...

you call your God Just... A just Father would NEVER torture his children... A Father does not punish... he teaches...

The only Just way would be an eye for an eye, as it says... What you do to others in this life... will reflect upon your next... that is just... and HELL... is not.

All are forgiven... meaning everyone without exception will pass into the afterlife... but not everyone will be happy with what happens afterword... HELL is not an option for a Just God logically...

That is only justice for the "Demons" that can be read about in the OT...




posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 



Perfection is attainable.... If it wasn't, he wouldn't have suggested it...


Go back and read that. He ws telling a person what he (that person) needed to do to inherit eternal life.

"Master, what must "I DO" to inherit eternal life?"

There are two paths to salvation, plan A and plan B:

Plan A: Never from the time you are born violate a single command of God, never sin by omission, commission, by thought, by speech, even doing the right things for selfish reasons. even when you are angered, or tired, at any time, never once making an error. Then you can walk straight up to the throne in heaven and say: "Move over Jesus, now there's two of us."

or:

Plan B: Accept the remedy God's already made for us in Christ and live a humble life of joy.


That's a very irreverent example, but I feel it illustrates the point quite well. Jesus didn't say that to affirm it's possible to be perfect, He said that as an illustration that it's impossible for a man to "inherit eternal life" on their own efforts.


edit on 10-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:56 PM
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This just falls along the lines of the concept of Original Sin. Christianity alleges that God created humans to live eternally in Heaven, and that when Adam ate from the tree from which he had been forbidden, God punished him through death and banishment from Heaven. They further assert that as death was inherited by his progeny, so too was the sin of their father, which was a permanent stain on the hearts of humanity, never to be removed except through a sacrifice so great that it would oblige God to forgive humanity. This sacrifice would be nothing other than the sacrifice of God himself, incarnate in His “son” Jesus. Therefore Christianity deems all of humanity as damned to Hell for the sin of Adam from which they could never be cleansed, except through the belief that God became incarnate and died for Adam’s sin, ritualized as Baptism, through which Christians are 'born again' into the world, but this time free of sin. So we see that the theory of 'Original Sin' forms the basis of various Christian beliefs, from the crucifixion of Jesus to the concept of salvation and savior from Hell. It forms the very basis for the mission of Jesus himself. Am I right?


“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” (Deuteronomy 24:16)


Doesn't Christianity say that God even repented from the creation of humans? In Genesis 6:6 (King James Version), it says:


“And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart" (Genesis 6:6)


Now, to agree to this would mean that Adam did something which was out of the Will, Power, and Knowledge of God, and that God regretted His creation of humans. God is All-Perfect and so are His deeds, and there is no defect or shortcoming in them; he does nothing except with total and complete perfection and wisdom.

I'm also curious as to what the outcome of the inane amounts of individuals who were alive before Jesus came to be, as well as the fate of those who were not baptized, as baptism is the rite which all Christians must perform in order to be cleansed of Original Sin. In Christian belief, all humans previous to the incarnation of God, including the Prophets and infants usually regarded as sinless, are not free from the Original Sin of Adam, and therefore cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, As Augustine said:


“Do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin.” [De Anima (III)]


Also, we know that the verse in the Apostles’ Creed, --


“… and (Jesus) descended into Hell” (The creed based on the Catechism of the Council of Trent)


-- is said to mean that Jesus descended to Hell to free the righteous souls who were there due to the sin of Adam. This leads us to believe that all those before the coming of Jesus are in Hell, even if they were from the righteous. Paul mentioned this himself in Galatians:


“… a man is not justified by the works of the law ... for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16)


Here it is clear that adherence to the commandments of God is not enough for salvation, even for those before Jesus. This also holds true to all those who have not received the message of Christianity. We must ask;

1. Why did not the Prophets before Jesus call to this notion of original sin?

2. Did they lie when they said that it was enough to Worship One God and obey His commandments to achieve Paradise?

3. Why did not God come and free humanity from sin at the time of Adam so that the righteous and others would not be in Hell due to his sin?

4. Why are infants, humanity before Jesus, and others who have not heard about Christianity, held accountable for a sin they never committed, nor have knowledge about how to remit themselves from it?

I'm just wondering.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



He said that as an illustration that it's impossible for a man to "inherit" eternal life on their own efforts.


This is true... but its nothing to inherit... It Is given freely...

Eternal life has always been... all life is eternal...




posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



He said that as an illustration that it's impossible for a man to "inherit" eternal life on their own efforts.


This is true... but its nothing to inherit... It Is given freely...

Eternal life has always been... all life is eternal...





Context is eternal life in the presence of God or eternal life elsewhere apart from it.

"Fear not him who can only destroy the body..."

I know our spirits are eternal and cannot be affected by time, I know Physics. We're talking about the privilege to spend that eternal life with Christ or not.


edit on 10-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



He said that as an illustration that it's impossible for a man to "inherit" eternal life on their own efforts.


This is true... but its nothing to inherit... It Is given freely...

Eternal life has always been... all life is eternal...





Context is eternal life in the presence of God or eternal like elsewhere apart from it.

"Fear not him who can only destroy the body..."



When are you Not in the "presence of God" if ALL is God...




posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 04:05 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 



When are you Not in the "presence of God" if ALL is God...


Okay, eternal life in Christ's kingdom, or eternal like apart from it, outside it the lake of fire. The same kingdom Christ spoke of when talking to Pilate. Remember when people had NDEs and say the spiritual realm is "more real" than this reality we know? This reality is a digital one, that reality is analog.

Sorry to get all Quantum Physicy on ya bro, but it's truth. This reality we perceive, the physical one is a digital simulation, the metaphysical one is the "real" reality, and it's analog.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by XxForgottenLegendxX
 



1. Why did not the Prophets before Jesus call to this notion of original sin?


Because it's false doctrine. We are responsibly for our own sins. The doctrine of original sin wasn't around at the time of Christ. "Original Sin" doctrine is that Adam's sins passed to us all, that's false. We are born with sin nature's so it's a matter of "when", not "if".

Babies and mentally retarded people would go to Hell if Original Sin were truth. It's not, only people with the capacity to understand (knowledge of good vs evil) they have sinned against God can understand the atonement offered in His Son Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon
 



When are you Not in the "presence of God" if ALL is God...


Okay, eternal life in Christ's kingdom, or eternal like apart from it, outside it the lake of fire. The same kingdom Christ spoke of when talking to Pilate. Remember when people had NDEs and say the spiritual realm is "more real" than this reality we know? This reality is a digital one, that reality is analog.

Sorry to get all Quantum Physicy on ya bro, but it's truth. This reality we perceive, the physical one is a digital simulation, the metaphysical one is the "real" reality, and it's analog.


Why are you appologising?


Nothing i don't know already... My point being... Hell... is a myth designed to scare people into conversion...

You can not seperate yourself from what you are... part of HIM... THAT seperation is an illusion...

People freely choose to "seperate" themselves from God by not looking for him... Realization of the spirit is the "comforter" he spoke of... that which was given when HE came back and said "HEY guys im back... told ya"


We have a different way of looking at this whole situation... you believe there is heaven and hell... i believe in neither from a mytholigical perspective... Both are the afterlife... and both are directly associated with what you do in this incarnation.... The firey torture place is Not an option...(unless you believe this place exists... Maybe! ) Though "torture" can be associated with many peoples outlook on this life...

My line of work has forced me to consider "hell" to be something that is created by us... by means of actions or lack of actions within this life... and previous lives...

That is the reason i made THIS thread...


edit on 10-4-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 04:17 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Bro, the first verse in 2 Peter explains Penalsubstitutionary Atonement. Read the ESV version, it's easier to grasp than the KJV verse.

Peter says we all have the same righteousness before God through Christ as them the apostles do. We certainly don't have the same works or rewards, but on merit for the purposes of Justification before God we're all equal, we have Christ's righteousness. He took our sin at the cross, and gave us His righteousness earned under the law in return.



posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 04:19 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


So does that make you a righteous sinner?





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