Gold will be worthless in a SHTF scenario

reply to post by Drezden


If SHTF, I'd rather have 10 lbs of beans than 10 lbs of gold. Cant eat gold.

Gold has been a storer of value since the Roman Empire 2000+ years ago & the SHTF many times in many places since then - I don't see that changing.

Peace

Originally posted by prisoneronashipoffools


I disagree the problem is you are assuming a total economic collapse of America at this time, would look like Argentina or Russia or that global trade will still be continuing. The worlds economies are tied together now, meaning that if America goes it probably won't be an isolated thing and all the worlds economies will tumble. And, also it works the other way too, if to many other nations economies collapse than America's economy will go down. Meaning that it will probably be a global meltdown if it happens. At that point America's going to lose a lot of soldiers real fast, many will be stranded in foreign countries, the majority of those in country aren't going to serve for free.

Also unlike Russia and Argentina there are far more guns in the hands of the citizens of America, which in itself will cause a rapid degradation of society as panic sets in and will also create a huge problem for remaining military forces in the US in trying to regain and maintain control, basically what government left will probably have to fight the people for every region and state.Add to that fact that Russia was a communist country and use to complete control how do you think the American citizens will act when they see the government begin to exert martial law and complete control. Well, maybe you think I watch to many movies or play to many video games, but I also hang around ATS and see plenty of armed citizens who will rise up against and fight such actions; like martial law and complete governmental military control, whether they are necessary or not.

Maybe, it won't happen that way, but frankly I think the current factors and variables in the US, mean that a total economic collapse of America will not play out the same as the examples you have shown. At the very least if I were you I wouldn't so absolutely sure as you seem about the outcome. Both of our views are simple speculation after all.

And that is just an economic collapse, not even talking about a global or national wide natural disaster situation. And I do agree SHTF can mean many things and come in many forms, but I am basing my definition on a complete collapse of government and society, irregardless of the cause.

**Addition**

In addition your Russian example is assuming that the American government will try to maintain control, keep food moving to your local store and keep the American people fed. The sad thing is I don't know if that would even be the case, the government is busy building lots of underground bases for themselves, it could be sad reality, that if a SHTF situation occurs, the government may just disappear underground and leave the citizens to fend for themselves.

edit on 31-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo

edit on 31-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo

edit on 31-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: addition

i agree, in that kind of example gold would be worthless. there are alot of examples were gold would be worthless.. but what if we just go through a great depression like the one 90 years ago?? What if the economy just keeps going down till we become a second world country?? What if unemployment shoots up to 35%???

the way our economy is going something is ganna happen economically, 100% guarantee. we just don't know to what degree or how horrible it will be.

other things can happen like nuclear war, civil war, earthquakes, tsunamis, manbearpig, we just don't know so we have to be prepared for anything. do you really not think the u.s. economy can't fail?? with a scenario like the great depression where we'd still have internaitonal trade?/? it only happened 90 years ago..

Everything with delusional value will have to go.

Vintage cars must become simply transport if there is fuel or shelter if there is not enough fuel.
Antique furniture will be good as firewood. So will the worlds fine art paintings, no-one will see value in a picture on a wall if they are freezing cold, we will have to burn Rembrandt to survive. All art will have to go, no one is going to waste valuable time and resources painting, even in a cave like we did 30,000 years ago if that energy can be put into getting some food. Dancing is out for the rest of our lives, what is the value of a person moving about in a funny way, better to keep practicing hand to hand combat for the rest of our lives instead and teach our kids to fight.
Money will be gone forever, why spend time and effort making round metal discs with currency symbols when making a shelter provides protection from rain. Talking about anything like philosophy or even telling jokes will be frowned upon when we need to get to the business of surviving and raising a family. Enjoying a family meal will be seen as extreme weakness, when the priority of surviving is the raw caloric intake, we must teach our kids these values.

All of the delusional values will finally be gone and we will get on with the business of simply surviving forever.

A lot of people here underestimate the power of the market, and the speed with which markets spring up when there is no central authority. There were markets in the ghettos of Warsaw, while the Germans were trying to kill the last of the Jews there.

Markets asserted themselves all over Europe overnight. People who cannot understand a single word of each others' language can still bargain for what they want.

Gold is useless if you are trying to start a fire in the middle of a snow storm. And you cannot eat it. But once I had a fire and some food....

Someone mentioned trading diesel and chickens for gold. In the scenario stated, the purchaser wouldn't trade for gold, diesel or anything else, because the few chickens are to valuable to trade away. You have to have SURPLUS to make any kind of barter or trade possible.

Gold is valuable as a PART of a stockpile because it doesn't corrode, and is accepted as a store of value around the world. The real problem is that it's too valuable to trade for small items.

Silver would be better for that.

reply to post by inthewinterdark


i really can't tell if your being sarcastic or not..

but anyways, have you guys ever tried bartering?? its a really ineffecient tool trying to trade rice for chickens and pigs for wiring. they'res a reason we use money, and its because it makes trade alot easier..
what if you only have chickens and the person who has all the rice is a vegetarian?? you walk 5 miles through danger carrying 10 clucking hens to look for someone else to trade with..
your chickens are worthless to the next farmer with 100 pigs but they'll give you a working generator for a rifle which you only have two of..(what if you need a spare part for your gun later?) but you know someone 15 miles away with an extra rifle. you go out to the your friend with the rifle carrying your 10 chickens with you this whole time, and you find out he just needs rice too, and on top of that his extra rifle is in 7.62x39 not .308 like you remembered. will the pig farmer take this?? etc etc etc. its complicated.

something besides gold that keeps value when currency deflates is guns. guns are always getting more expensive, guns are a pratical tool, guns stay good if taken care of for a really long time, guns are a higly sought after commodity item. i think we can ALL agree on this. still goes back to the small pain in the rear of bartering with no currency though, but thats a minor inconvenience compared to dying for lack of items to trade

reply to post by Nephlim


Well, Nephlim, if that vegetarian doesn't want chickens he may need the chicken manure Open your mind.

reply to post by rickymouse


lol good point. its just an example though, its not a perfect example, just an example.
how hard would it be to take 20 wheelbarrow loads of manure 5 miles without a truck with gas????(some lightweight money/gold sounds good about now) it'll take you 5 days of work for a bag of rice that feeds your family for 7 days. what if he wants 40 wheelbarrow loads and won't budge because he has everything he needs while your sitting at home with no starch in your diet??

something i learned in business 101. we played a bartering game like that and it was COMPLICATED . it took forever and you had to go back and forth between people to figure out what they needed and what others had. had to do three way trades often to get what you want, shows WHY PEOPLE GO BACK TO MONEY/GOLD.

it becomes easier to give people gold/money after a while than to bring over 50 wheelbarrows of wheat or walk 100 cows 20 miles anytime you need to trade anything. thats why people have always historically done it.

there is a chance to win big if you have what others need though, at the end of the game i think i owned like a third of the commodities on the market by making the right deals and creating scarcities of certain items. and others obviously got jipped and didn't have enough items to live/pass

you can tell who has spent money on gold recently in this thread

tell me, did you buy paper gold or did they mail you some real gold ?

Once the masses have died you can collect gold from any bodies you find, deserted towns and shops, abandoned homes etc, collect as much of it as you can and when the aliens come along to investigate why we've gone silent you can use it to buy your way off the dead planet we used to call home, as apparently they use it to power their ships...

reply to post by Nephlim


Everything doesn't crash when a severe depression occurs. Money is recalled and metals take on values. Copper, silver, and other semiprecious metals are a better alternative unless you are trading in huge amounts of commodities. for the regular guy investing a little into these metals now can make trading easier later.. a pound of copper in small pieces is easier to buy food with than an ounce of gold. Who has change for the gold for a small transaction like buying a bushel of potatoes. An ounce of silver would buy them though. Why would a farmer want a bunch of gold around attracting big time crooks anyway. Gold attracts some types of people and I haven't figured out exactly why yet. I like copper and brass myself. Semiprecious gems have always been a traded commodity amongst the lower class. Diamonds and high end gems was traded amongst the rich in the past. Capitalism taught people that the diamonds were needed to portray wealth. Just a wizards ploy.

I don't even like the color of gold. I know, my perception is wrong. I'm lucky there aren't and nuthouses around because that is so abnormal. My kind is a threat to capitalism and present society Do they serve peanuts or cashews in those nuthouses?

Originally posted by rickymouse
I don't even like the color of gold. I know, my perception is wrong. I'm lucky there aren't and nuthouses around because that is so abnormal.

My kind is a threat to capitalism and present society

Do they serve peanuts or cashews in those nuthouses?

I have seen thousands of gold bars, all various colours from bright shiney 'what you'd think gold should look like' bars to antique (circa 1920's) dull almost bronze coloured ones ( from before the London Bullion Market Association decided that gold should look like gold). The novelty of seeing all these bars and there was about 300,000 of them at that time wore off after two days, and all I could think of is we are raping the planet of its natural resources so that a few can indebt the many.

So no your perception is not wrong, that you do not openly LUST after it may be seen as 'suspicious' behaviour by some.

reply to post by DataWraith

That's impressive, now could you answer the bit about the peanuts and cashews?

Think of it, You will need lots of beer. What else makes You feel so good?

Originally posted by Nephlim

Originally posted by prisoneronashipoffools


I disagree the problem is you are assuming a total economic collapse of America at this time, would look like Argentina or Russia or that global trade will still be continuing. The worlds economies are tied together now, meaning that if America goes it probably won't be an isolated thing and all the worlds economies will tumble. And, also it works the other way too, if to many other nations economies collapse than America's economy will go down. Meaning that it will probably be a global meltdown if it happens. At that point America's going to lose a lot of soldiers real fast, many will be stranded in foreign countries, the majority of those in country aren't going to serve for free.

Also unlike Russia and Argentina there are far more guns in the hands of the citizens of America, which in itself will cause a rapid degradation of society as panic sets in and will also create a huge problem for remaining military forces in the US in trying to regain and maintain control, basically what government left will probably have to fight the people for every region and state.Add to that fact that Russia was a communist country and use to complete control how do you think the American citizens will act when they see the government begin to exert martial law and complete control. Well, maybe you think I watch to many movies or play to many video games, but I also hang around ATS and see plenty of armed citizens who will rise up against and fight such actions; like martial law and complete governmental military control, whether they are necessary or not.

Maybe, it won't happen that way, but frankly I think the current factors and variables in the US, mean that a total economic collapse of America will not play out the same as the examples you have shown. At the very least if I were you I wouldn't so absolutely sure as you seem about the outcome. Both of our views are simple speculation after all.

And that is just an economic collapse, not even talking about a global or national wide natural disaster situation. And I do agree SHTF can mean many things and come in many forms, but I am basing my definition on a complete collapse of government and society, irregardless of the cause.

**Addition**

In addition your Russian example is assuming that the American government will try to maintain control, keep food moving to your local store and keep the American people fed. The sad thing is I don't know if that would even be the case, the government is busy building lots of underground bases for themselves, it could be sad reality, that if a SHTF situation occurs, the government may just disappear underground and leave the citizens to fend for themselves.

edit on 31-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo

edit on 31-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo

edit on 31-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: addition

i agree, in that kind of example gold would be worthless. there are alot of examples were gold would be worthless.. but what if we just go through a great depression like the one 90 years ago?? What if the economy just keeps going down till we become a second world country?? What if unemployment shoots up to 35%???

the way our economy is going something is ganna happen economically, 100% guarantee. we just don't know to what degree or how horrible it will be.

other things can happen like nuclear war, civil war, earthquakes, tsunamis, manbearpig, we just don't know so we have to be prepared for anything. do you really not think the u.s. economy can't fail?? with a scenario like the great depression where we'd still have internaitonal trade?/? it only happened 90 years ago..

edit on 31-3-2012 by Nephlim because: (no reason given)

I can see your point and I agree that there are many scenarios where gold still holds value. I also, will admit I have a small amount of junk gold, but as far as buying and storing gold I am not going to to do it. I see supplies and self sufficiency as being more important. In other words if I have an extra grand, that extra grand is going for more supplies and more things to make me self sufficient. If I have a 100,000 then all that will be spent likewise. AT the same time, if I have enough supplies for me and my family and also have as much self sufficiency as possible, and gold still retains value in one of the scenarios, then it won't bother or hurt me, because I will be able to pick up any needed gold from others, by selling any of my surplus to those who need it and I would wager I would probably would get more value for the gold with supplies then, then I would buying gold with dollars now.

Anyway, thanks for the time and the reply.

Originally posted by rickymouse
reply to post by Nephlim

 

Everything doesn't crash when a severe depression occurs. Money is recalled and metals take on values. Copper, silver, and other semiprecious metals are a better alternative unless you are trading in huge amounts of commodities. for the regular guy investing a little into these metals now can make trading easier later.. a pound of copper in small pieces is easier to buy food with than an ounce of gold. Who has change for the gold for a small transaction like buying a bushel of potatoes. An ounce of silver would buy them though. Why would a farmer want a bunch of gold around attracting big time crooks anyway. Gold attracts some types of people and I haven't figured out exactly why yet. I like copper and brass myself. Semiprecious gems have always been a traded commodity amongst the lower class. Diamonds and high end gems was traded amongst the rich in the past. Capitalism taught people that the diamonds were needed to portray wealth. Just a wizards ploy.

100% agree. copper is definately a good one as are semi precious gems. i'm not supporting gold per se as much as i am supporting the idea of trade commodities to barter with in general. hell even oil might become the new dollar.
oil can be easily measured, oil can be divided into any ammount, oil is easily transportable, oil has pratical value just like copper.

you gota think in terms of how easy is this to trade, can i divide this in half and trade??? quartered?? eigths? how heavy is this new form of currency ganna be? is it useful to everyone? is it valued by everyone?

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
you can tell who has spent money on gold recently in this thread

tell me, did you buy paper gold or did they mail you some real gold ?

no i don't have any gold. i can just see how in some situations it would be usefull. like in argentian and russia 20 years ago. like during the great depression. etc etc.

as soon as i'm done building up my farm then maybe i'll worry about gold. i think in terms of immediate survival first, then economic crisis survival second. a producing farm will help with both.

Originally posted by Drezden
People cannot eat gold anymore than they can eat paper money. In a SHTF scenario seeds, oil, medicine, clothes..etc.. will be the most valuable trade goods. What are you going to do with gold if you need to trade for something. How much will the gold actually be worth to the people you are trying to buy things from in the theoretical SHTF world? I can have your gold coins which will be a weight in my pocket... and I give you medicine and seeds to start a garden.. no thanks, I'd rather hold out and trade for something more useful.

Thoughts?

I realize gold would be valuable if the economy crashes and there is a strong government (actually no.. the government will seize most of the gold.. you can still hide some I suppose)... but in a true SHTF scenario gold will be utterly worthless for several years.. or for however long it takes for a monetary system to become practical again.

Even in the Dark Ages...GOLD was second in value only to Diamonds. Gold value has increased mainly because of it's necessity in use of building Electronic Equipment and High Tech. Commmunication connectivity and Solar Shielding.
GOLD will ALWAYS have value even in a World Disaster. Platinum is also another element that is increasing in value due to it's High Tech. applications.
The ONLY way that GOLD would become worthless is if Humans ever Cracked the secrets to THE UNIFIED FIELD THEORY thus giving us the ability of Matter/Energy interchange. Unfortunately...we are still far too stupid to understand even a Glimpse of that concept.

Matter/Energy Interchange means for those of you who do not know....you can take the necessary amount of energy and convert it via the UNIFIED FIELD THEORY....into any ELEMENT or perhaps....any complex molecular thing you wish. So you could make as much GOLD as you wish given you have the Energy and the understanding. THEN....GOLD would be cheap. Split Infinity

Well your're talking about an absolute worst case scenario. Gold and silver has been a medium of trade for thousands of years. it's in our DNA. If food is scarce and people are starving etc. sure gold/silver would be worthless next to food. However as long as their are people that have any excess food goods etc. to trade gold and more likely silver will be the medium of exchange.

If we get to a point where things are so bad most are starving and food is scarce there won't be much trade if any going on at all period for food or gold/silver. Usually threads like this are made at least partially to justify not having any gold or silver. Well after you are prepared with food water clothing shelter etc it is still wise to have at least some silver. Because if there is any reasonable amount of barter going on anywhere gold and silver will be a medium of exchange for the same reason it always has been. it is a recognizable commodity that does not perish and it is more convenient to trade your goods for some gold/silver and then be able to trade the gold for what ever you need instead of just trying find someone who has the exact stuff you need and hope you have what they need to barter straight across.