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Gold will be worthless in a SHTF scenario

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posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 11:34 AM
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reply to post by Domo1
 

and only one star off me of cause




posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 11:42 AM
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I stated in my original post that depending on the ShTF scenario gold might not be worthless.. i.e. if a strong government remains in control.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by Drezden
 



...women abandoned their jewels as worthless, and desperate people resorted to cannibalism—even selling human flesh in the market place. Babies were kidnapped for food, if not eaten by their own parents. Even the graves were ransacked for food..

guoted from: In an article that appeared in National Geographic magazine in 1917, Ralph Graves surveyed historical occurrences of famine all the way back to the Egyptian pharaohs.

www.apologeticspress.org...



In teotwawki, people will hold on to every edible scrap they have. It WON"T be for sale, at any price.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 12:17 PM
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agree

the currency will be water, food, fuel, ammo, pharma



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 12:41 PM
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Gold has survived through many SHTF situations. Today people put themselves in debt to wear such a cheap looking tacky color jewelry.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 03:30 PM
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Livestock, medicine and hygienics are definitely the essentials, but once people can readily trade for these and these basic needs are met, people are going to place value on other things. Gold will never devalue. It's worth depends on the SHTF scenario. If society still retains some structure immediately after, the people who have gold are going to save it until they think it can be honestly redeemed. As human beings, our civilization and others before us, it's fixated in our minds that gold is one of the most prized things on Earth. Society will always form around a product like gold.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by CaptainNemo
Livestock, medicine and hygienics are definitely the essentials, but once people can readily trade for these and these basic needs are met, people are going to place value on other things. Gold will never devalue. It's worth depends on the SHTF scenario. If society still retains some structure immediately after, the people who have gold are going to save it until they think it can be honestly redeemed. As human beings, our civilization and others before us, it's fixated in our minds that gold is one of the most prized things on Earth. Society will always form around a product like gold.


I disagree, it is not fixated in all humanities mind only a few. The fact is many ancient civilizations and tribes didn't use gold as a currency and it wasn't because they didn't have gold, they actually did and we find jewelery and etc from them. The reason they didn't use it as a currency is just because it wasn't fixed in their mind as having real value. Many ancient cultures used pretty shells and meso america they primarily used cocoa beans as a system of currency. It's one of the reasons why when the gold crazy spanish showed up, at first the leaders of the meso american empires just gave them gold, they didn't really see any value in it. It was only after the spanish turned around and wanted more and more of it and started killing them and enslaving them to get it, that the meso americans started getting gold forcibly fixated in their mind. The fact is gold is delusion and frankly it can and will lose value.

And,I would say even if you are all right and gold becomes valuable again one day, after the collapse, when we start rebuilding civilization, that is going to take a while and people with gold or going to have to hold it for a long time and hope they have enough other stuff of real value to see them through the collapse times.

The sad truth is, though gold may be fixated in the minds of many humans, it is still a delusion and only valuable if others share the delusion. Will some trade for gold during a SHTF situation, sure maybe, but all the gold holders shouldn't be surprised when many of us won't. I don't share the delusion, of course I could be a minority, I don't buy diamonds either, because I don't like getting ripped off by others perpetuating a false value game. Though I may be a minority, I would say more and more people are waking up to the scam of usless or not all that rare materials like gold and diamonds though and many more will when they are starving. And really if a SHTF situation does happen, don't be surprised if all the people become fed up enough with the whole world empire system that has been rolling since Sumeria and they just chuck all the old values and beliefs overboard; the belief and love of gold with it.
edit on 31-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo

edit on 31-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo

edit on 31-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo

edit on 31-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 04:57 PM
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If the SHTF then gold and other rare items would be used as a medium of exchange on the basis that direct barter may not always be appropriate. I know people think that money is the source of all evil (and all that) but there is a reason why money exists and money could be gold, emeralds or anything of universal value.

Simple economics and human experience creates a need for a medium of exchange, because simple bartering does not always work, as bartering assumes you will have what someone else wants and visa-versa.

For example, in a bartering situation, if I have diesel and chickens and you have diesel, but want chickens then you have nothing to give (because I don’t want more diesel), so there is no deal and you go hungry.

With gold (el al) in the equation, I have chickens and diesel and you have diesel and gold, but want chickens. The gold represents an item of understood value which I could take in return for chickens. I could then use the gold for something I want from the next person who does not want my remaining diesel. Simple really.

Hope this lesson in basic economic is insightful and shows gold would have a use when SHTF.

Regards



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 05:06 PM
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reply to post by CaptainNemo
 


Gold could drop to 300 dollars an ounce within days. Look at history. Same with most the other precious metals. Don't assume that gold won't drop drastically. It's price recently isn't realistic even with the failing economies all over the world. I know the swings in metals pretty well, having friends who deal in scrap metals. Put some of your faith in things we and others need to survive in a world without reliable power and adequate food supplies. Buy a shovel , hoe, seeds, and garden rake and learn to grow and take care of food. the value of One ounce of gold can buy a lot of security if it's done right.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 05:11 PM
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Originally posted by paraphi
If the SHTF then gold and other rare items would be used as a medium of exchange on the basis that direct barter may not always be appropriate. I know people think that money is the source of all evil (and all that) but there is a reason why money exists and money could be gold, emeralds or anything of universal value.

Simple economics and human experience creates a need for a medium of exchange, because simple bartering does not always work, as bartering assumes you will have what someone else wants and visa-versa.

For example, in a bartering situation, if I have diesel and chickens and you have diesel, but want chickens then you have nothing to give (because I don’t want more diesel), so there is no deal and you go hungry.

With gold (el al) in the equation, I have chickens and diesel and you have diesel and gold, but want chickens. The gold represents an item of understood value which I could take in return for chickens. I could then use the gold for something I want from the next person who does not want my remaining diesel. Simple really.

Hope this lesson in basic economic is insightful and shows gold would have a use when SHTF.

Regards


I am not trying to knock you, but I think you are missing a very important point of simple economics, currency only really has value when you have abundance in society. If you look at when civilizations moved from barter to currency it was when they had so much stuff that barter become unwieldly, for instance a city state or empire had graneries full of grain or extremly large herds of cattle and etc, at that point it become more convenient to use currency then to move hundreds of pounds of grain or herd of cattle. In a SHFT situation there is not going to be enough to go around, not by a long shot and when you have mass scarcity and people starving, barter is not so cumbersome as to require currency, you will be trading small and limited numbers of items, not silos of grain or herds of cattle.

And the diesiel chicken idea, only functions if one of us assumes and takes the risk that whatever currency we trade will later be accepted by others. If I have diesel and chickens and you have diesel; which I don't want, but you do have some gold or some other currency, I still won't give up my chickens for your gold or currency either, because there is no gaurentee that later I can get anything for it and you will still starve.

Anyway just my opinion.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by paraphi
 


When a medium of trade is established it seems like it always gets off balance. A good laying hen is worth more than five gallons of gas in reality if things get rough. Look at the price of gold, it's ridiculous.

I know someone who because of their 300 or so chickens became pillars of the community during the depression. They supplied reasonable priced eggs to people and they became very respected after the depression ended. This kind of respect lasts a few generations unless someone renews it. We don't have to impress everyone to great extents. We have to gain the respect of those in our local communities. We should build up our communities so they can tolerate a SHTF scenario working with all citizens to create local security. Then we will be able to help other communities if we have excess food production capabilities. Buy from local farmers, don't put your full faith in the way things are.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 05:42 PM
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what shtf senario?
A financial collapse is vastly different than a meteor impact toasting most of the earth...or a zombie apoc, etc...

What is the most valuable resource in almost any scenario though is a worthwhile trade (say engineering or medical) and a working brain. You can be dropped naked out in the middle of a desert and survive fine, or can be dropped in a lush rainforest and die of dehydration..all depending on your survival understanding and what the scenario is.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 06:38 PM
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Originally posted by prisoneronashipoffools

Originally posted by CaptainNemo
Livestock, medicine and hygienics are definitely the essentials, but once people can readily trade for these and these basic needs are met, people are going to place value on other things. Gold will never devalue. It's worth depends on the SHTF scenario. If society still retains some structure immediately after, the people who have gold are going to save it until they think it can be honestly redeemed. As human beings, our civilization and others before us, it's fixated in our minds that gold is one of the most prized things on Earth. Society will always form around a product like gold.


I disagree, it is not fixated in all humanities mind only a few. The fact is many ancient civilizations and tribes didn't use gold as a currency and it wasn't because they didn't have gold, they actually did and we find jewelery and etc from them. The reason they didn't use it as a currency is just because it wasn't fixed in their mind as having real value. Many ancient cultures used pretty shells and meso america they primarily used cocoa beans as a system of currency. It's one of the reasons why when the gold crazy spanish showed up, at first the leaders of the meso american empires just gave them gold, they didn't really see any value in it. It was only after the spanish turned around and wanted more and more of it and started killing them and enslaving them to get it, that the meso americans started getting gold forcibly fixated in their mind. The fact is gold is delusion and frankly it can and will lose value.


With civilizations like the Mayans and Incans, gold was exclusively entitled to be possesion of the king. That's why we don't see it being used as a currency. They valued gold for asthetic and religous reasons. When the conquistadors first saw the abundance of gold the Incans were sitting on, they instantly thought money.
edit on 31-3-2012 by CaptainNemo because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by rickymouse
reply to post by CaptainNemo
 


Gold could drop to 300 dollars an ounce within days. Look at history. Same with most the other precious metals. Don't assume that gold won't drop drastically. It's price recently isn't realistic even with the failing economies all over the world. I know the swings in metals pretty well, having friends who deal in scrap metals. Put some of your faith in things we and others need to survive in a world without reliable power and adequate food supplies. Buy a shovel , hoe, seeds, and garden rake and learn to grow and take care of food. the value of One ounce of gold can buy a lot of security if it's done right.


You're right, and I've been watching the gold market for a 5 years now. In all fairness, in that post I should have said, that gold historically overwhelmingly follows an increasing trend. My idea is that you should be prepared for any type of SHTF scenario. When one happens, gold won't be of much relevance to the vast majority of surviving people, but definitely not worthless.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 07:50 PM
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Gold will always be valuable. because when shtf, there will undoubtedly be some people with allot of resources and they will be willing to part with it for gold.

gold, throughout history has been a source of power and wealth.

then the cycle will start all over again.

no, when shtf, not even gold will help you, it will be the extinction of mankind.

how many of you know how to build a hydro-electrical damn and a power grid. imagine there are no more universities. the majority with that knowledge are either dead, or scrapping for rats to feed themselves.

that's one example.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 08:03 PM
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whenever i come on ATS it seems like people are talking smack on gold.

you sirs, have watched one to many movies and played one to many video games.
you should study some HISTORY of shtfs and the many DIFFERENT DEGREES of a SHTF as posted by SilentThundersGF.

if you want a good modern example look at ARGENTINA AND RUSSIA. in 1990's

SITUATION- civil war/ infrastructure collapse
money deflates to 1/5th its value.
robberies and propert crime, kidnappings increase exponentially
groceries stores are still open but lines are an hour long
all money goes to keeping you and your family fed
police are still around to stop looters and are some of the most corrupt people around
national and international trade is ongoing


IN THIS SCENARIO YOUR ONLY USING YOUR GUN A COUPLE TIMES A YEAR!!!
GOLD WILL BE WORTH YOUR DAUGHTER!!!!

I am not one to say this will 100% happen; as opposed to a TEOTWAWKI.
you guys are talking more about a TEOTWAWKI.
there are alot of OTHER SITUATIONS to remember. there are alot of inbetweens. look at the great depression for example.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 08:03 PM
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remember, many different scenarios and you should prepare for them all. you can't just say how the S will HTF for sure. so its best to be rounded.

good thing; over all; is to look at history and see what is some of the most likely scenarios.
edit on 31-3-2012 by Nephlim because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 08:21 PM
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There will be no post shtf society. I think it is presumptuous to believe that peaceful trade will exist considering the vast majority of sheeple have no survival supplies, nor skills. Perhaps if you could survive the first few months... You might be all by yourself, humans will revert to animals quick. Just watch a black Friday riot



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 08:29 PM
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Originally posted by CaptainNemo

Originally posted by prisoneronashipoffools

Originally posted by CaptainNemo
Livestock, medicine and hygienics are definitely the essentials, but once people can readily trade for these and these basic needs are met, people are going to place value on other things. Gold will never devalue. It's worth depends on the SHTF scenario. If society still retains some structure immediately after, the people who have gold are going to save it until they think it can be honestly redeemed. As human beings, our civilization and others before us, it's fixated in our minds that gold is one of the most prized things on Earth. Society will always form around a product like gold.


I disagree, it is not fixated in all humanities mind only a few. The fact is many ancient civilizations and tribes didn't use gold as a currency and it wasn't because they didn't have gold, they actually did and we find jewelery and etc from them. The reason they didn't use it as a currency is just because it wasn't fixed in their mind as having real value. Many ancient cultures used pretty shells and meso america they primarily used cocoa beans as a system of currency. It's one of the reasons why when the gold crazy spanish showed up, at first the leaders of the meso american empires just gave them gold, they didn't really see any value in it. It was only after the spanish turned around and wanted more and more of it and started killing them and enslaving them to get it, that the meso americans started getting gold forcibly fixated in their mind. The fact is gold is delusion and frankly it can and will lose value.


With civilizations like the Mayans and Incans, gold was exclusively entitled to be possesion of the king. That's why we don't see it being used as a currency. They valued gold for asthetic and religous reasons. When the conquistadors first saw the abundance of gold the Incans were sitting on, they instantly thought money.
edit on 31-3-2012 by CaptainNemo because: (no reason given)


Interesting points, but your statement actually supports my argument against relying on the value of gold or any currency really in a SHTF situation.

Why did the Mayans and Incas use cocoa beans and other things instead of gold for their currency, because their leaders and kings chose other stuff as the currency. That is the point you and others seem to be missing; any currency; whether it is gold, shells, beads, bits of wood, feathers, paper or etc, only has any value because a chieftain or king of a society gives it value; they back it with their word and will. That is the true nature of currency; it is a creation of kings, to facilitate trade in a given empire or society.

The fact is in an SHTF situation, there is no government or society, there is no institution to enforce an arbitrary value on materials; whatever they may be. At that point all materials revert to their intrinsic value, which gold has very little. And the fact is at that point how much does gold become worth? It depends on what two parties agree upon in any given transaction.

If you have a farmer growing their own food and has an extra bag of vegetables and you have a starving man with a wheelbarrow full of gold, how much gold are those vegetables worth, a bit of gold, a coin, a bar, half the wheelbarrow, all of the wheelbarrow? Well, depends on what they agree upon, the thing is if they can't come to an agreement, the farmer can hold on to his bag of vegetables and eat them, the gold hoarder has to roll the wheelbarrow down the road and pray that the next farmer or person he meets will take some of it in trade.

As, far as the conquistadors seeing money, they only saw money, because their king and empire placed value on gold, it was one of the primary reasons the king of Spain sent them, was to find more gold and silver for their empire, which valued gold and silver. If the king and empire of Spain saw value in obsidian they would have been stealing and shipping that back to Spain instead of the gold and silver.

Currency is an illusion and when your starving you can't eat illusions.

Anyway thanks for your time and response.


edit on 31-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typos



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 09:13 PM
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Originally posted by Nephlim
whenever i come on ATS it seems like people are talking smack on gold.

you sirs, have watched one to many movies and played one to many video games.
you should study some HISTORY of shtfs and the many DIFFERENT DEGREES of a SHTF as posted by SilentThundersGF.

if you want a good modern example look at ARGENTINA AND RUSSIA. in 1990's

SITUATION- civil war/ infrastructure collapse
money deflates to 1/5th its value.
robberies and propert crime, kidnappings increase exponentially
groceries stores are still open but lines are an hour long
all money goes to keeping you and your family fed
police are still around to stop looters and are some of the most corrupt people around
national and international trade is ongoing


IN THIS SCENARIO YOUR ONLY USING YOUR GUN A COUPLE TIMES A YEAR!!!
GOLD WILL BE WORTH YOUR DAUGHTER!!!!

I am not one to say this will 100% happen; as opposed to a TEOTWAWKI.
you guys are talking more about a TEOTWAWKI.
there are alot of OTHER SITUATIONS to remember. there are alot of inbetweens. look at the great depression for example.


I disagree the problem is you are assuming a total economic collapse of America at this time, would look like Argentina or Russia or that global trade will still be continuing. The worlds economies are tied together now, meaning that if America goes it probably won't be an isolated thing and all the worlds economies will tumble. And, also it works the other way too, if to many other nations economies collapse than America's economy will go down. Meaning that it will probably be a global meltdown if it happens. At that point America's going to lose a lot of soldiers real fast, many will be stranded in foreign countries, the majority of those in country aren't going to serve for free.

Also unlike Russia and Argentina there are far more guns in the hands of the citizens of America, which in itself will cause a rapid degradation of society as panic sets in and will also create a huge problem for remaining military forces in the US in trying to regain and maintain control, basically what government left will probably have to fight the people for every region and state.Add to that fact that Russia was a communist country and use to complete control how do you think the American citizens will act when they see the government begin to exert martial law and complete control. Well, maybe you think I watch to many movies or play to many video games, but I also hang around ATS and see plenty of armed citizens who will rise up against and fight such actions; like martial law and complete governmental military control, whether they are necessary or not.

Maybe, it won't happen that way, but frankly I think the current factors and variables in the US, mean that a total economic collapse of America will not play out the same as the examples you have shown. At the very least if I were you I wouldn't so absolutely sure as you seem about the outcome. Both of our views are simple speculation after all.

And that is just an economic collapse, not even talking about a global or national wide natural disaster situation. And I do agree SHTF can mean many things and come in many forms, but I am basing my definition on a complete collapse of government and society, irregardless of the cause.

**Addition**

In addition your Russian example is assuming that the American government will try to maintain control, keep food moving to your local store and keep the American people fed. The sad thing is I don't know if that would even be the case, the government is busy building lots of underground bases for themselves, it could be sad reality, that if a SHTF situation occurs, the government may just disappear underground and leave the citizens to fend for themselves.



edit on 31-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo

edit on 31-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo

edit on 31-3-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: addition



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