Thailand government bans MMA

reply to post by getreadyalready

I don't like watching grappling, it is boring, but it is an important skill to learn and is one of the most useful for corrections and law enforcement and such. Its still boring!

I see your "boring" and raise you one flying triangle and two flying armbars.

reply to post by OrchusGhule


Okay, well it's just that I don't think what they practice in MMA is real Muay Thai. At least I don't think it holds a candle to traditional practitioners in Thailand.

Muay Thai also has grapples similar to Jiu Jitsu, some of them combined with some nasty strikes that would drop just about anyone. Some of them for putting the opponent back in striking range, etc. I'm sure you already know if you are a martial artist/study it.

In fact I remember one old, kind of famous match between a Thailander and a kick boxer where the Muay Thai practitioner kept grappling and throwing the boxer due to reflex. I think he ended up breaking the kick boxers shin in half after almost being disqualified for the grappling. I can't remember the name of guy, I'll try to find the video if I can.

I am of the opinion that Muay Thai is more effective than Jiu-Jitsu by the way. We'll have to agree to disagree, no reason to try and argue it and get off topic anymore than we already are.

Originally posted by ImaMuslim
I hate MMA anyway, it's damaging to the human body and nature, violence isn't a problem solver, especially your economical problems. Instead of trying to fight for violence, spend your time fighting for peace. Swings those arms for peace and swing the feet for peace.

I like MMA as a sport but I do not like what it has become. Another kool aid sport. When people see the sport they think its brutal and violence but it is much more... Its a puzzle of mixed emotions, pushing the body to its limits to show just how strong we are. We are not made of glass. Its discipline when tough and used properly. Its good and evil playing into our Animalistic nature witch we should not deny. To deny our animal instincts is to deny our connection with the planet and the universe.

I do understand the decision to outlaw MMA but I do not agree with because its taking away freedom that cannot be taken away. Cutlers eventually evolve. They cannot stay the same for ever.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

Your view is apparently correct because the grapplers are dominating mma/ufc. Can't argue with that, but I don't think they are the all that great.

 jiu-jitsu is most prob the most effective fighting style there is.
This was basically prove in the early ufc events. Its not all about
 jiu-jitsu . Look at the diaz brothers. Great with jiu-jitsu , but also
excellent with their boxing. Same as jon jones, who is a wrestler, but
excellent stand up.

reply to post by Jay-morris


MMA has shown that someone well versed in any style can be on top. Chuck Lidell, striking. Machida, Karate.

Both of these two with their victories turned MMA upside down for a bit. I don't think people in the West took Karate seriously with all the commercial, children oriented gyms around. And Chuck really took the breath out of the Wrestling community with his striking during his success.

Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

MMA has shown that someone well versed in any style can be on top. Chuck Lidell, striking. Machida, Karate.

Both of these two with their victories turned MMA upside down for a bit. I don't think people in the West took Karate seriously with all the commercial, children oriented gyms around. And Chuck really took the breath out of the Wrestling community with his striking during his success.

Thats what im saying. Its not just about one style. You have
to adapt because you mught be good on the ground, but then
you could come up against a fighter like chuck with amazing
takedown defence and amazing striking.

Ok wow people are very emotional over this subject .

I used to be an MMA junky, I watched allllllllll them time back when Chuck Liddell (who I'm not a fan of btw) first became champion.

I stopped watching because the respect the fighters displayed started to look more and more like boxing. Wearing jewelry coming out with entourages for some reason talking smack before the match...it was dumb.

But there are many excelent respectful martial artists in the UFC and other MMA organizations.

George St Pierre

Josh Koscheck

Fedor Emelianenko (one of my heroes)

Anderson "The Spider" Silva (one of the most respectful and honorable fighter I have ever seen)

Diego Sanchez (albeit he has a very short temper)

Martial Arts is about discipline if the practitioner does not show the respect and honor which the discipline teaches, then that practitioner is not a Martial Artist...they are a fighter.

reply to post by getreadyalready


I dont know about this getreadyalready, I have seen a lot of foreign MMA matches with boxers facing MMA guys and they all get taken to the ground and submitted. I have actually seen very few fights where a pure boxer or a pure grapple win consistently. The best fighters always mix it up. Confusing your opponent is part of the art, if your a one trick pony your going to put down like one.

If you want see how hard some of these guys chins are look up the Forrest Griffin Vs Stephen Bonner fight one of the best nearly pure kick boxing matches ever.

reply to post by RSF77


Well certainly MMA is not pure Muay Thai, but in a sense, Muay Thai is not pure Muay Thai. The history of Muay Thai and its predecessor Muay Boran is very interesting and makes for a good evening study. I highly suggest it. The most successful MMA fighters are all highly trained in modern Muay Thai, and it is for a good reason.

About the grappling in Muay Thai, it is against the rules for a fighter to take a submission type hold on the opponent, such as an arm bar. The holds in Muay Thai, as you said, are only for putting the opponent in a position for a devastating strike, such as controlling the head for the purpose of a knee strike to the body or head.

I'm not saying Muay Thai is inferior to other martial arts or MMA. What I am saying is that when used in combination with submission grappling techniques, the MMA style that results is highly effective and can have many advantages over both styles simply due to the versatility. Opponent got you in a loose Muay Thai style head grapple? Someone trained in Jiu-Jistu can turn that into an arm bar with little effort. Opponent so focused on wrestling you to the ground that he neglects his guard? He needs a Muay Thai knee to the face.

As far as training goes, I think the level of dedication and rigor is unique from person to person in all styles and arts. Saying Muay Thai fighters are in better condition than MMA fighters is rather a generalization. I will admit though that there are some MMA fighters that step into the ring with fat all over them, and they generally are not very successful.

Thanks for the conversation, BTW.

Also, the debate about what is the most effective style is as old as the arts themselves. Its all in good spirit though.

Originally posted by ExploitedAliens

Originally posted by daaskapital


This decision is a very interesting one in my opinion. I do partially agree with this decision though. Through MMA, Muay Thai is mis-represented through the arrogant nature of the MMA fighters, something that has no place in real Muay Thai. Furthermore, there is no sign of tradition, respect or culture present in most MMA fighters who practice Muay Thai.

So, yes, i feel that MMA is damaging the image of Muay Thai. What does ATS feel? Was Thailand swayed by the Muay Thai community to ban MMA, or was it a credible decision?

www.fighterso nlymag.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Well said.

I was stating the truth. Rarely do you see a MMA fighter displayign the same type of respect that you see in Muay Thai. Have you even bothered to watch a MT bout? After the fights, it is completely about respect. The winning oppinent goes over, hugs him, wais him and is absolutely respectable. MMA, oh man, it is insane: Win - Carry on like an #wit - don't check if your opponent is alright.

Originally posted by Openeye
Ok wow people are very emotional over this subject

.

I used to be an MMA junky, I watched allllllllll them time back when Chuck Liddell (who I'm not a fan of btw) first became champion.

I stopped watching because the respect the fighters displayed started to look more and more like boxing. Wearing jewelry coming out with entourages for some reason talking smack before the match...it was dumb.

But there are many excelent respectful martial artists in the UFC and other MMA organizations.

George St Pierre

Josh Koscheck

Fedor Emelianenko (one of my heroes)

Anderson "The Spider" Silva (one of the most respectful and honorable fighter I have ever seen)

Diego Sanchez (albeit he has a very short temper)

Martial Arts is about discipline if the practitioner does not show the respect and honor which the discipline teaches, then that practitioner is not a Martial Artist...they are a fighter.

reply to post by getreadyalready

 

I dont know about this getreadyalready, I have seen a lot of foreign MMA matches with boxers facing MMA guys and they all get taken to the ground and submitted. I have actually seen very few fights where a pure boxer or a pure grapple win consistently. The best fighters always mix it up. Confusing your opponent is part of the art, if your a one trick pony your going to put down like one.

If you want see how hard some of these guys chins are look up the Forrest Griffin Vs Stephen Bonner fight one of the best nearly pure kick boxing matches ever.

I'll agree with you on the lack of respect. I think a huge motivator behind this move by the Muay Thai authority and government in Thailand is to keep that type of showmanship out of their sport. I have to agree that this is probably a good idea. Its my least favorite part about MMA. Some of these guys are just brawlers but, like Brock Lesnar who had very little martial arts training, those are generally the guys with very short careers.

Originally posted by sc13ntific
reply to post by daaskapital

 

Honestly this is one of the more ignorant post regarding MMA I have read in a long time outside of a boxing forum. If you look at the Muy Thai practitioners in MMA at the top level (UFC/Strikeforce) almost all of them travel or have travelled to Thailand to coach with very well respected Kru's there. Anderson Silva, probably the best Muy Thai practitioner in MMA, is very respectful of Muy Thai, as are guys like Kenny Florian and a host of others.

It's not only about the fighters mate. I am not disputing that some MMA fighters are respectable, it is just that, most aren't. They carry on like dickheads, which, in turn can hurt MT's image, as the publics conception may become misconstrued.

Originally posted by daaskapital

Originally posted by sc13ntific
reply to post by daaskapital

 

Honestly this is one of the more ignorant post regarding MMA I have read in a long time outside of a boxing forum. If you look at the Muy Thai practitioners in MMA at the top level (UFC/Strikeforce) almost all of them travel or have travelled to Thailand to coach with very well respected Kru's there. Anderson Silva, probably the best Muy Thai practitioner in MMA, is very respectful of Muy Thai, as are guys like Kenny Florian and a host of others.

It's not only about the fighters mate. I am not disputing that some MMA fighters are respectable, it is just that, most aren't. They carry on like dickheads, which, in turn can hurt MT's image, as the publics conception may become misconstrued.

I don't know if I would say most of them carry on like idiots, but some of them do which makes the entire organization look negative. It would be nice if they had a code of conduct in MMA organizations, and originally it was like any other martial art; respect and discipline were the first priority. Unfortunately, that type of negative and disrespectful behavior is the result of the pursuit of money that took place when Dana White came into the picture. I have never liked him, and I think he is a bad spokesperson for the sport. He becomes involved in a great deal of s**t talking in his video blog, and its just disgraceful. So I guess its no surprise when that type of behavior leaks into the rest of the organization, which no doubt is why Thailand wants no part of it.

reply to post by daaskapital


Is it really like that now? I used to watch it once in a while before I killed my TV. Before the fight there was a lot of smack talking and head games, but after most of the fights I saw it was respectful as hell.

reply to post by DavidWillts


So Mayweather isn't a native (not at all the point). He IS now a local hero. If you would have said Pacquiao I would have less of an argument.

It's "painfully" obvious that I don't know what I'm talking about? Either you should see a doctor or I just inventrd a new hands off, mind based martial art.

Your still missing my point of OVERALL profit on MMA. You keep siting one specific boxing match against one specific MMA fight. Great! But that's not how wealth accumulation works. You get to add it all up. As far as advertising I mean that companys give fighters/clubs money to wear the company name so it will be seen on t.v.

I don't mean to digress from the thread topic, but some of the comments here have left me baffled. It seems the legitiamcy of the sport and fighters has become questionable.
Anyone who does not think people like Wanderlei Silva , Fedor Emelianenko, Anderson Silva, Kazushi Sakuraba, Bas Rutten, Jon Jones, Nick Diaz, Marco Ruas or BJ Penn are anything short of warriors that eat live and breath MMA at the most supreme levels, and are masters of their craft, are not familiar enough with the sport and history, imo.

Remember Bruce Lee, the innovator of mma? Granted, there is 'fluff' too, as in any sport, and there is political BS as well, but today's mma fighters train incredibly hard and their dedication and discipline are second to none. Brian Stann, a decorated Marine would surely defend mma as a noble sport that brings the cream right to the top. As far as competition with ones self and others, nothing else compares to the mental, physical and spiritual cultivation these guys endure and create.

Bloodsport and danger? Do some homework and you will find boxing is significantly more dangerous than mma. I think it is the ultimate personal challenge for a warrior, other than actual war I suppose. For those that seek their optimum abilities, phy, mentally and spiritually, imo nothing else compares.

MMA has provided a means of earning a living too. The sport is here to stay and will continue to flourish because the fan base and competitors continue to grow in numbers.
Bruce Lee did not gain his popularity by his acting abilities and looks alone ya know.

My .02

spec

reply to post by boncho


I'm sorry man, but I have had people try all 3 of those moves on me, and they ended up really hurt. It just isn't impressive. I don't understand how the guy on top can just tap out? I've had my head in a figure 4 like that, and I picked him up and slammed him to the ground until he let go, and then I proceeded to beat on him until he crawled away and ran off, LOL! I've seen a friend of mine, actually the guy that the charity would benefit, when he was still playing football, he got in a fight at a party, with a Muay Thai and BJJ "expert" and he was obviously outmatched skill wise, and eventually he got into some kind of hold where he was basically helpless, but he didn't give up, he just stood up, with the guy hanging off his neck, and he smashed the guy against a door frame 4 or 5 times until the guy dropped off of him and fell to the floor in a heap of pain and broken pride, LOL!

Those wrestling moves and submission holds just don't hold up outside of a ring, and they shouldn't hold up inside an "ultimate fighting" ring either.

I've been corresponding with several people privately, and I'll admit there is every possibility I am wrong, so I promise to go and see for myself, and I will video it, and I will post it to ATS! It might take a couple of weeks or a month to find a gym that will let some stranger come in and spar, but I will do it.

reply to post by getreadyalready

Those wrestling moves and submission holds just don't hold up outside of a ring, and they shouldn't hold up inside an "ultimate fighting" ring either.

Hey gra, I just wanted to address this. My roommate was a bouncer for a few years and he confirmed what I had already heard and witnessed, that 70%(ish) of all fights wind up on the ground, and I promise you, a heel hook, arm bar, rear naked choke or knee bar will fully disable an opponent. Granted, they will have to know how to properly administer the moves, but there is not much defense to r n choke, and defending arm/knee bars takes the knowledge and proper skill to defend.
I was reflecting on my own street fights back in the day, and out of 9 total, 6 of them went to the ground. There are certainly times when a one punch KO plays out too, but imo the fight more often goes to the ground, by circumstance.

This is not an all definitive example, but a good sample of some of these moves. The thing is, a person can lock these things in pretty darn fast. I guess a big factor too is if the opponent at the bar, or wherever, has any mma skills or not , and with the growing popularity of the sport, I would be willing to bet that even more people would "shoot" for a takedown these days in a street situation, because that is what they are seeing in mma fights.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


There is one Diaz that I like. The younger skinnier one. Is that Nick?

Lesnar turned out to be a big softy, his last fight was embarrassing. Penn is 11-6-1? That isn't impressive. Couture is 16-7, but he is 47 years old, so that is pretty good!! Is he proof that someone 38 years old (me) might have a chance to compete? Liddell is also 16-7, and as I read their resumes I notice that all of them have the same notable accomplishment of beating Wanderlei Silva, so Silva is good enough to be a benchmark, but bad enough to be beat by all of the other contenders, LOL!

Now, I have to admit Anderson Silva and Matt Hughes look very impressive, and maybe they are the real deal, and maybe Gracie used to be the real deal, but we are talking about the elite of the elite here. They are the Mike Tyson's of this sport and their skills and toughness are not indicative of the regular fights I see on USA or Spike or even the typical PPV.

Originally posted by Chi-and-Me
reply to post by DavidWillts

 

So Mayweather isn't a native (not at all the point). He IS now a local hero. If you would have said Pacquiao I would have less of an argument.

Yeah, kinda was your point remember what you said?

Your still missing my point of OVERALL profit on MMA. You keep siting one specific boxing match against one specific MMA fight. Great! But that's not how wealth accumulation works. You get to add it all up. As far as advertising I mean that companys give fighters/clubs money to wear the company name so it will be seen on t.v.

Yeah professional boxers get paid to do that to, and much more i might add. Boxing makes more money hands down all around. "Boxing is dead" is just a meme
www.karatemart.com...

Originally posted by ImaMuslim
I hate MMA anyway, it's damaging to the human body and nature, violence isn't a problem solver, especially your economical problems. Instead of trying to fight for violence, spend your time fighting for peace. Swings those arms for peace and swing the feet for peace.

Oh god there are so many ridiculous posts in here. Lets start with this one.

i was involved in MMA before health problems barred me from competing. The gyms Ive been too have had some of the friendliest down to earth people people ive ever met and really fostered a bond between the martial artists there.

Its nothing more than another competition. Many of the guys who fight are friends going in and friends coming out. Stop over freakin reacting.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by daaskapital

 

I actually like Muay Thai, and I HATE MMA and UFC.

I'm 38, and I'd be happy to fight any of those UFC punks for charity to benefit my buddy fighting cancer. I hope one of them read this, and I hope they take me up on the challenge. Punks.

They aren't fighters, they are grapplers. There is nothing "Ultimate" about what they do. There are of course a few exceptions, but in general I see the sport as a bunch of nerds with some fight training.

Why dont you then? Theres plenty of legit gyms in most states so you can go down there with your bad self and show them a thing or two

and LOL at you saying these guys arent fighters.