Would you want to be a Freemason?

Originally posted by W3RLIED2
reply to post by R0CR13

 

"........................... Any way, there's nothing creepy about our handshakes....... "

Just be sure to count your fingers afterwards...............joke.

Nope, don't want to be in their little "club".

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
Do any of you Mason's know what your "Blazing Star" (the upside down pentagram in your lodge, well unless you're in New York and then it MAY be right-side up) is meant to signify??

Originally posted by KSigMason
Blazing Star signifies Providence.

As usual, all exoteric.. "Providence" is the exoteric meaning. The esoteric meaning of the Blazing Star is Sirius, the Dog Star.
It is "Blazing" because it is 23 times brighter than our Sun. This is a fact. You can try and say there is only one meaning, which is "Divine Providence" and you are mistaken. Where does this providence come from and why is it represented by a "Blazing Star"? It is Sirius, period.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

The beautiful border which surrounds it is emblematical of those manifold blessing and comforts which surround us, and which we owe to the bounty of Divine Providence, which is hieroglyphically represented by the Blazing Star in the Center.

So it is fairly clear to anyone who has participated or read the ritual that the Blazing Star represents Divine Providence, because, you know, it actually says that. But nice try with the Crowley reference. Maybe you can further dazzle us with your vast wealth of knowledge regarding Masonic symbolism.

Hey God, (Augustus M) have you ever thought to admit that there are multiple layers of meaning to many symbols in your (and every masonic) lodge? Don't you think there are deeper levels of meaning to the Blazing Star?

You are a complete dunce, the Crowley reference (as I stated, which you ignored) was for *explanation*, of what is the Silver Star and Blazing Star, both representing SIRIUS! But you try to weaken my argument by distorting what I say.

The Thelemites named their most secret order after the same "heavenly body" that Freemasonry has ALSO chosen as it's main emblem. And *that* was my point, but you take every piñata pot-shot you can take. That is why I call you a "SLACKER of a debunker" because you have to resort to rabbit-punches and dirty fighting. You can't just take my points on in a clean fight, without playing word games.

Originally posted by KSigMason
We don't spend "so much time" adorning ourselves nor exalt ourselves to positions of godhood.

The entire time you spend together, is spent, adorned in regalia and exalted to heavily initialed positions.. as evidenced by your signature.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Morals & Dogma is not a religious text. It expresses tolerance of other unities, not exactly acceptance of their beliefs.

Meanwhile, it preaches the higher truth of the Hermetic doctrine (a form of dogma, or religion in itself).. which is exactly what Augustus M has said.. there is no Devil, it's all part of God, the divine equilibrium, unity or balance.
And that is exactly what I meant when I said "it's all one thing".

Originally posted by network dude
Not that I want or need to be involved in this, Augustus was playfully calling on of the other masons on this board a knucklhead. Not you. Put a bit of ointment on that knee, and the next time it jerks, it won't hurt so much.

It wasn't as obvious as you're making it out to be. Maybe you get his humor, but it was still a guess.
What you said obviously occurred to me, but it didn't make sense. So I went with the option that made more sense. You can call it knee-jerk, I will call it poor writing.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Sorry Mr. Potato Head, he is saying that God is responsible for both good and evil

That is the same thing as saying that the "human-invented Devil" is part of God. But you want to play semantics games as usual. You can do that all day... but it still shows and is annoyingly childish.
Pike speaks of all sorts of archetypes for evil throughout his books, he just believes God is responsible for it, because the theoretical "Lucifer" and all the other names of evil archetypes are just human personifications of someting which does not exist outside of God.

So God molests children and eats feces because that's what sick humans do.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Pike did not believe in the Devil/Satan.

Neither did Anton LaVey. Really, and neither does the Temple of Set.
They only spoke of Satan as the highest part of the human psyche and not the soul because they don't believe in a soul either. They are essentially radical humanist / atheists, just like Pike and all other believers in Hermetic philosophy.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
Hey God, (Augustus M) have you ever thought to admit that there are multiple layers of meaning to many symbols in your (and every masonic) lodge? Don't you think there are deeper levels of meaning to the Blazing Star?

Not in Masonic ritual which clearly explains its symbolism to Divine Providence.

You are a complete dunce, the Crowley reference (as I stated, which you ignored) was for *explanation*, of what is the Silver Star and Blazing Star, both representing SIRIUS! But you try to weaken my argument by distorting what I say.

Actually the dunce is the one who has the explanation in black and white handed to them on a platter an insists that it is something else.

The Thelemites named their most secret order after the same "heavenly body" that Freemasonry has ALSO chosen as it's main emblem. And *that* was my point, but you take every piñata pot-shot you can take. That is why I call you a "SLACKER of a debunker" because you have to resort to rabbit-punches and dirty fighting. You can't just take my points on in a clean fight, without playing word games.

Sorry, the Blazing Star is not Masonry's 'main emblem' (which would be the Square and Compasses) nor is there any reference to such in the ritual. You continually invent strawman fallacies such as this to try and support your egregious and rather pathetic attempts to explain ritual of which you only have a passing knowledge.

You can call it knee-jerk, I will call it poor writing.

I prefer to blame your poor reading comprehension as the post was a repsonse to Ksig as evidence by the quotation above what I wrote, but feel free to be hyper-sensitive.

So God molests children and eats feces because that's what sick humans do.

No, God set the laws of the Universe in motion and man is responsible for his own actions, whether they are good or evil.

Neither did Anton LaVey. Really, and neither does the Temple of Set.

Neither of those groups is relevant to Masonry

They are essentially radical humanist / atheists, just like Pike and all other believers in Hermetic philosophy.

Pike was far from being an atheist.

The star symbol of Isis which is Sirius is a 5 pointed star and is NOT upside down
The five points represent the elements of Earth Fire Water Air and the top point represents soul or spirit.
Or can be seen as 4 limbs as in Leonardo's proportions of Man with head at top point.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen


As usual, all exoteric.. "Providence" is the exoteric meaning. The esoteric meaning of the Blazing Star is Sirius, the Dog Star.

I have heard this before from several Masonic authors (Most notably Pike and Foster Bailey), but I remain unconvinced. In my opinion, the Blazing Star was adopted from Hermetic philosophy, and represents the Microcosm of Pythagoras. Pike agrees with this as well....why he had to drag Sirius into it, I have no idea.

the Crowley reference (as I stated, which you ignored) was for *explanation*, of what is the Silver Star and Blazing Star, both representing SIRIUS!

Where did you get that Crowley considered the Silver Star to be Sirius? I'm not saying that he didn't say that, only that I wasn't aware that he did, and if he did, I'd be interested in reading his comments.

It's important to remember that Crowley just didn't make the name up...it was always the title of the Third Order in the Hermetic school which manifested as the Order of the Golden Dawn. Technically, the Golden Dawn was only the name of the Outer College. The Inner College was the RR et AC, and the Third College was the Silver Star.

In 1909, when Crowley and George Cecil Jones attempted to reorganize the grade structure, they simply called the whole thing "Silver Star" instead of "Golden Dawn". It's also important to remember that this wasn't really an organization at all, and for the most part existed only on paper. The Caliphate Ordo Templi Orientis has a pseudo "A.A." going on these days, but it bears little resemblance to what Crowley had in mind.

Meanwhile, it preaches the higher truth of the Hermetic doctrine (a form of dogma, or religion in itself).. which is exactly what Augustus M has said.. there is no Devil, it's all part of God, the divine equilibrium, unity or balance.
And that is exactly what I meant when I said "it's all one thing".

Yes, in the big picture, I suppose we could say "it's all one thing" because, ultimately, all things are One. But in the practical matter of manifestation there are differences. For example, the serpent and the Christ are depicted as antagonistic in exoteric religion. But there is a higher mystery involved in the esoteric sense because the serpent is a type of the Christ. "Even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so also must the Son of Man be lifted up."

Sorry Mr. Potato Head, he is saying that God is responsible for both good and evil

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

They are essentially radical humanist / atheists, just like Pike and all other believers in Hermetic philosophy.

How can Hermeticists be atheists when the Corpus Hermeticum is a collection of dialogues between adepts and God?

reply to post by LeonoraTenen

And what significance then "oh great one" does the Dog Star have to do with Freemasonry?

Also, those who speak in absolutes are usually absolutely foolish.

Symbols can have layers of symbolism, but one person's interpretations are not indicative of widespread acceptance or use.

You're again trying to tie Freemasonry with Crowley where nothing exists. Plus, the blazing star is not the "main emblem" of Freemasonry. Of all symbols I would say that the Square & Compasses is by the far the most prominent symbol in all of Masonry.

The entire time you spend together, is spent, adorned in regalia and exalted to heavily initialed positions.. as evidenced by your signature.

Not really. Statistically I spend more time "out of my regalia" with my Masonic Brothers than in tiled meetings.

Augustus is entitled to his beliefs as am I in regards to religious beliefs, but again, "Morals & Dogma" is not a religious text. One could say that all is one as God created the being who would eventually fall from grace and become the Devil.

It wasn't as obvious as you're making it out to be. Maybe you get his humor, but it was still a guess.
What you said obviously occurred to me, but it didn't make sense. So I went with the option that made more sense. You can call it knee-jerk, I will call it poor writing.

How could you mix it up as he replied to me?! How much more obvious can it get?

And no, Pike was not a "radical humanist / atheists".

Her is poem by Scotland's finest poet Robert Burns for all you Masons - Enjoy

1786
Masonic Song

Ye sons of old Killie, assembled by Willie,
To follow the noble vocation;
Your thrifty old mother has scarce such another
To sit in that honoured station.
I've little to say, but only to pray,
As praying's the ton of your fashion;
A prayer from thee Muse you well may excuse
'Tis seldom her favourite passion.

Ye powers who preside o'er the wind, and the tide,
Who marked each element's border;
Who formed this frame with beneficent aim,
Whose sovereign statute is order:-
Within this dear mansion, may wayward Contention
Or withered Envy ne'er enter;
May secrecy round be the mystical bound,
And brotherly Love be the centre!

Albert Pike was not and is not a spokesperson for all of Masonry. Now I like Pike. I quote him from time to time and I do like much of his writings. Pike was an EXTREMELY well read man...that said he read many things including many extremely not true histories, and some extremely poor books on history, religion and archeology etc....He was a well read man of the 1800's but he could not have known which sources were filled with more errors on certain topics....he did not have the massive breadth of information available now.....I'd give anything to see what he might have written had he had the internet, amazon and a credit card. .......the breakthroughs in historical textual criticism since the application of computers to this study alone is mind boggling, and has redefined our understandings of many different philsophies and theologies.........my point is Albert Pike is a fine read, but he does not nor has he ever spoke for masonry as a whole. I will defend him from attack, in that he is quoted out of context, but do not mistake that for his beliefs and mine or any other masons being the same.

Honestly if you want to understand the basis of Masonic philosphy you'd be far better off reading texts from the members of the royal society and the invisible college before them, when underground masonry was first coming into public light. Or perhaps it should be said when masonic light was first casting it's light on pubic darkness.... .

Originally posted by ForkandSpoon
Or perhaps it should be said when masonic light was first casting it's light on pubic darkness....

If you cast your light too often on pubic darkness will you go blind?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by ForkandSpoon
Or perhaps it should be said when masonic light was first casting it's light on pubic darkness....

If you cast your light too often on pubic darkness will you go blind?

No! But you will find a hoarde of tag alongs that never go away. Then... their shinanigans will pull you down and you'll be learning a new light that comes from a source you don't want to learn from.

George Michael: "Teacher"

Funny story i found a book about masonry and they talk about how theyd like to be more in the public's eye

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I have heard this before from several Masonic authors (Most notably Pike and Foster Bailey), but I remain unconvinced. In my opinion, the Blazing Star was adopted from Hermetic philosophy, and represents the Microcosm of Pythagoras. Pike agrees with this as well....why he had to drag Sirius into it, I have no idea.

Pythagoras' Microcosm, (aka Pentalpha or Pentacle) is where the Eastern Star comes from. And it is Sirius. To the ancient Egyptians, Sirius was a negative omen. When it rose over the nile, it signaled the nile flooding. The Dogons were more favorable of Sirius, as is Islam.
Look in the Qur'an (53.49), Allah is called "The Lord of Sirius" in subtlely-varying ways, depending on translation.
The word "Dog" star, some say came from Anubis being depicted as a dog. Some debate this and say it is Isis that represents Sirius to the Egyptians. Either way, Sirius is a constant figure head.

On July 4th 1776, Sirius was rising and would've been in a direct line with the Capitol Bldg, as well as the Egyptian Obelisk (Wash. Monument) and would reflect off the water of the Lincoln Mem. Reflecting Pool. As depicted here by the Super Friends.



As you may know, this information wasn't widely divulged by occult philosophers, until recently (1990's).
However, if any one of us were to research this, they would find a lot of pertinent and compelling data.
You mentioned Foster Bailey.. well, his wife Alice wrote quite a bit about Sirius.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Where did you get that Crowley considered the Silver Star to be Sirius?

I don't believe that Crowley ever divulged the meaning of "Silver Star" in writing. Thus he wouldn't have divulged in writing that it was Sirius.

I have read it in many books and have been told this, orally, from the mouths of numerous Thelemites and a slurry of other various religio-mystical scholars. As you I'm sure know, there is an oral tradition of wisdom that isn't linkable to web pages.

Obviously that's harder to prove, but I'm not really trying to prove what I say as much as inspire interest in those who will do their due diligence to find their own conclusions. This will require interfacing with the real world more than the digital ethers.

But here's one example of a Thelemite who proclaims it:
avalonianaeon.blogspot.com...

Originally posted by Masonic Light
It's important to remember that Crowley just didn't make the name up...it was always the title of the Third Order in the Hermetic school...

Thanks for clarifying. I should've put this disclaimer in my post, but I am trying to make my posts shorter, not so long-winded. We can all agree that alot of what Crowley espoused, was plagiarized.
"Do what thou wilt."? Anyone know where that came from? Not Crowley.

Either way, I'm drawing no straight line from Crowley to Freemasonry, not that I shouldn't, since he was so obsessed with being given his cred from the GL of England. I'm just using him as re-inforcement that Sirius is a very important 'power source' for many occult (esoteric/secret) sects - based on Sirius' significance to the ancient mystery traditions, which most of these sects heavily base their teachings on.

This helps me to show why Sirius is what "Providence" and the "Blazing Star" symbolizes to all of free masonry, which in turn re-inforces the wide range of material that focuses upon Sirius.

Crowley sought so hard for masonic recognition, because he HIMSELF saw that the masonic rituals were, to the "T", taken from, and represented in more allegorical form, the same ancient ceremonial magick which he already performed? Are all of you saying I'm stupid (Potato Head w/ reading comp issues) to think this?
Was Crowley also a stupid reading-challenged Potato Head?

Why did Aleister Crowley call his group "Argentum Astrum" or "A.·. A.·." (when he co-opted the name "Silver Star" and "A.·. A.·.")? Why do Ancient & Accepted Esoteric Freemasons choose to use "A.·. A.·." instead of "A & A" in many cases?

www.esotericmasons.com...

Check this out, it's pretty good:
www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

I've been seeing this quote come up a lot the past few days.
It's one that takes a lot of contemplation and I still can't say I understand all that the Bible says, enough to know why this doesn't contradict with other things the Bible says.. either way, some Jews believe in the Devil and some don't. I'm humble enough to know it's not for me to reconcile, if they can't do so after thousands of years without my help.

I'm out of space for this post. Gotta start another. To be continued maybe...

Originally posted by OurSecretHouseCLUB33
Funny story i found a book about masonry and they talk about how theyd like to be more in the public's eye

Perhaps they should do some rituals in public - bet they could fill Huge Stadiums (Bums on seats)
OR - Maybe enter one of their talented members on American Idol
Or create a long running Soap Opera for TV - "The Masons"

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
have you ever thought to admit that there are multiple layers of meaning to many symbols in your (and every masonic) lodge? Don't you think there are deeper levels of meaning to the Blazing Star?

Not in Masonic ritual which clearly explains its symbolism to Divine Providence.

So you're saying masonic rituals clearly explain all of the meanings behind symbols? That's humorous.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
the dunce is the one who has the explanation in black and white handed to them on a platter an insists that it is something else.

Luckily there is one who knows here who can help shed the "masonic light" where you cannot.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Sorry, the Blazing Star is not Masonry's 'main emblem' (which would be the Square and Compasses) nor is there any reference to such in the ritual. You continually invent strawman fallacies such as this to try and support your egregious and rather pathetic attempts to explain ritual of which you only have a passing knowledge.

It was neither a "strawman fallacy", nor a "pathetic attempt". Nor do I only have "passing knowledge".
I deserve more respect than you will ever give me, so I'm pretty much over the need to argue with you.. although you'll have to have the last word on all of this, so it'll probably continue because I will not back down as long as you keep twisting things to your favor. This requires endless responses from me, so expect it if you want to continue distorting reality... at least you're not the scholar of masonry around these parts... and the one who is, may be learning something new about this from me right now.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
It wasn't as obvious as you're making it out to be. Maybe you get his humor, but it was still a guess.
What you said obviously occurred to me, but it didn't make sense. So I went with the option that made more sense. You can call it knee-jerk, I will call it poor writing.

How could you mix it up as he replied to me?! How much more obvious can it get?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
I prefer to blame your poor reading comprehension as the post was a repsonse to Ksig as evidence by the quotation above what I wrote, but feel free to be hyper-sensitive.

Haha... OK you guys really want to push this point of "Reading Comprehension" even after I explained this "mis-understanding".

When I looked at AugM's post that *basically* said "you mean you want someone to actually read (something) before taking it out of context? knucklehead." I had to think about who knucklehead was aimed at, for a while and what I kept asking myself was, "why would he choose to use the word 'knucklehead' to describe KSig's supposedly-unfair expectation?" As I said before, it made no sense. Maybe because he's from Joysey and they call everyone a knucklehead for everything... for all I know it's like Californians saying "dude" or "bro".

But it's over... move on already. Unless there's s'more on that you'd like to pick at.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
Neither did Anton LaVey. Really, and neither does the Temple of Set.

Neither of those groups is relevant to Masonry

Never said they were, just that they call themselves "Satanists" and have essentially the same view of the Devil as you and Pike.

Originally posted by KSigMason
And what significance then "oh great one" does the Dog Star have to do with Freemasonry?

I'm far from a "great one".. I'm not trying to say I know everything. I'm just a bit more informed and dedicated than your usual foe here on ATS.. and I'm smart enough to see that I don't know a whole lot, but I'm persistent and you don't like that. At least I don't use a barrage of letters to confer my authority over others.

You seem to disqualify people, forcing them to qualify themselves.. then you call them a "know-it-all" because you backed them into a corner and aren't willing to admit it. Dirty tactics.

I have done a partial job (which for now due to character limits will have to be good enough) of connecting Sirius with Freemasonry in my previous post.. if you require more from me, I will oblige.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Also, those who speak in absolutes are usually absolutely foolish.

Symbols can have layers of symbolism, but one person's interpretations are not indicative of widespread acceptance or use.

There are certain inner meanings that are agreed-upon. You're trying to hyper-relativistically subjectify your way out of it. If you're slippery and you know it, clap your hands!

It is also worth re-mentioning that the 584-day path of Venus is that of a pentagram. That was said earlier though.
This hints more strongly of the association of Lucifer, with Venus and perhaps even the pentagram with "the devil".

I'm just putting that out there. I'm open to hearing alternative interpretations.

This is Prince Hall of Arkansas, Grand Lodge material and, like two of the links I posted in my 2nd to last post, is from an *official masonic body*.

Home Page: www.arkphagrandlodge.com...
Eastern Star Page: www.arkphagrandlodge.com...

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
On July 4th 1776, Sirius was rising and would've been in a direct line with the Capitol Bldg, as well as the Egyptian Obelisk (Wash. Monument) and would reflect off the water of the Lincoln Mem. Reflecting Pool.

Those buildings didn't exist then.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
Either way, I'm drawing no straight line from Crowley to Freemasonry, not that I shouldn't, since he was so obsessed with being given his cred from the GL of England. I'm just using him as re-inforcement that Sirius is a very important 'power source' for many occult (esoteric/secret) sects - based on Sirius' significance to the ancient mystery traditions, which most of these sects heavily base their teachings on.

This helps me to show why Sirius is what "Providence" and the "Blazing Star" symbolizes to all of free masonry, which in turn re-inforces the wide range of material that focuses upon Sirius.

Anyone else see the contradiction here?

I wonder if you realize that symbols are ambiguous and arbitrary.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
I'm just a bit more informed and dedicated than your usual foe here on ATS.. and I'm smart enough to see that I don't know a whole lot, but I'm persistent and you don't like that. At least I don't use a barrage of letters to confer my authority over others.

Most people say they are "smart enough" or "more informed". My signature isn't really a barrage, but rather an alphabet soup.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
So you're saying masonic rituals clearly explain all of the meanings behind symbols? That's humorous.

What is humorous is that you have never particpiated in the ritual where all the relative symbolism is explained in detail so of course you have no concrete idea what it means. Oh, wait, I forgot, you read a book by Pike ten years ago.

Luckily there is one who knows here who can help shed the "masonic light" where you cannot.

Oh, good, because he agreed that the Blazing Star is not Sirius and had nothing to do with Crowley.

It was neither a "strawman fallacy", nor a "pathetic attempt". Nor do I only have "passing knowledge".

Then you should have no issue explaining, and demonstrating from the ritual, why the Blazing Star is, in your words, one of the main emblems of Masonry, when it is in fact, not. I stand by my comments, it is a strawman used to support your poor understanding of Masonic ritual which stems from you never having participated in the same or having sat through the lectures.

I deserve more respect than you will ever give me...

Than stop posting your OPINIONS on Masonic ritual and symbolsim as FACT because as has been shown to you, your opinion is wrong.

...at least you're not the scholar of masonry around these parts... and the one who is, may be learning something new about this from me right now.

Again, Masonic Light (and everyone else) disagreed with your premise regarding Sirius and Crowley, so your little ego-stroking is just that.

I had to think about who knucklehead was aimed at...

If you actually have to 'think' about who a reply is addressed to when it acutally has the poster's name preceeding it, what does this say for your ability to grasp the explanations of Masonic ritual that we are trying to give to you?

Never said they were, just that they call themselves "Satanists" and have essentially the same view of the Devil as you and Pike.

That is incorrect. The Temple of Set is a theistic-Satanist society where LeVay's is non-theistic. Codyoutlaw would be better able to explain the Temple of Set as he is a member.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
It is also worth re-mentioning that the 584-day path of Venus is that of a pentagram. That was said earlier though.
This hints more strongly of the association of Lucifer, with Venus and perhaps even the pentagram with "the devil".

You would only see this from well north of the solar system as the synodic cycle of the Earth and Venus would only be visble from that point. Additionally there is typically a 7* difference in the angles due to orbital ellipticity.

So what does this have to do with the OP........................
I believe he was asking if you would like to be a member, I think there are tons of threads on the symbols of masonry,

As for me, I would never want to be a Freemason, they sicken me.
Most of them follow these rituals, and these beliefs, that masonry makes you a better man than non-members.
Which in my experience is not very true. Especially when it comes to christian-mason's. they are supposed to act in their faith. Christianity preaches forgiveness and humility, very few of the mason ATS members have these virtues.

Another detractor for masonry is that racism is prevalent in many lodges.I don't know about you, but I don't want to be part of a racist organization, I should say the racism isn't a principle of masonry, just a bi-product of old white men sitting around together for the last decade.

The nail in the coffin for me is the fact that they are expected to "be their brother's keeper", and their brotherhood surpasses their faith. Now some might argue this isn't the case, and perhaps it isn't so much anymore, but that is the way it was in the past, and there are still a lot of older members....



Anyways, not all freemasons are bad people, i just find a lot of the disingenuous, almost hypocritical.