Would you want to be a Freemason?

reply to post by LeonoraTenen

Don't underestimate the elderly.

Personally, when approached by an anti-Mason I # with them as much as I can. I had a gal accuse the Masons of making the initiate kiss the Master's penis during the ritual. I said, "Yeah, so?". She started to freak out so I said, "It's not so bad when your the Master of the Lodge like I am." She didn't appreciate the joke at her expense.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
And it has never once been refuted or denied by a mason.

To the best of your knowledge.

There is plenty out there on Mason's out there that have talked about Hall's work.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
With him and Pike mentioning Lucifer so often, you'd think it had something to do with Freemasonry's teachings...

Well, if you actually read the 4 times Pike uses the word "Lucifer" in Morals & Dogma you'd see that nowhere does he say we worship Lucifer. He consistently denoucnes Satan, the Adversary. You should really read the actual book.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
And it has never once been refuted or denied by a mason.

Is there a rule that we need top post a disagreement with what every non-Masons writes?

I read Hall's book(s), I do not agree with a good portion of his assesments of Masonry. You should read the comments Hall made regarding himself after he joined when reflecting on this particular work.

Originally posted by KSigMason
You should really read the actual book.

Wait. You actually want someone to read Morals and Dogma before quoting it? How are they supposed to take things out of context then? Knucklehead.

Albert Pike is a heavy read for sure - snippets I have read echo other things I have studied.
I can not comment on old Albert's work having not read it fully though.
What ever floats your boat I guess - certainly a tricky subject to put across so hats of to Mr Pike

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Wait. You actually want someone to read Morals and Dogma before quoting it? How are they supposed to take things out of context then? Knucklehead.

Knucklehead huh? I see you're in NJ.. hang out at the Jersey Shores much? Huh bish?

I have M & D and have read it cover to cover once (10 years ago) and have read sections of it multiple times more recently. Have you ever thought for one second that maybe people will interpret his words in different ways?

Did I ever say Pike WORSHIPPED Lucifer? No I didn't.

Here is Morals & Dogma page 324 (I re-typed this page from the book in its entirety)... knucklehead.

It is by His uttered Word that God reveals Himself to us; not alone in the visible and invisible but intellectual creation, but also in our convictions, consiousness, and instincts. Hence it is that certain beliefs are universal. The conviction of all men that God is good led to a belief in a Devil, the fallen Lucifer or Light-bearer, Shaitan the Adversary, Ahriman and Tuphon, as an attempt to explain the existence of Evil, and make it consistent with the Infinite Power, Wisdom, and Benevolence of God. Nothing surpasses and nothing equals, as a Summary of all the doctrines of the Old World, those brief words engraven by HERMES on a Stone, and known under the name of "The Tablet of Emerald:" the Unity of Being and the Unity of the Harmonies, ascending and descending, the progressive and proportional scale of the Word; the immutable law of the Equilibrium, and the proportioned progress of the universal analogies/ the relation of the Idea to the Word; giving the measure of the relation between the Creator and the Created, the necessary mathematics of the Infinite, proved by the measures of a single corner of the Finite;--all this is expressed by this single proposition of the Great Egyptian Hierophant; "What is Superior is as that which is Inferior, and what is Below is as that which is Above, to form the Marvels of the Unity."

This is exactly what I am talking about. I shouldn't really need to break this down.. but since you guys are too effin thickheaded to either understand, or admit what he's saying (and you continue to ARGUE about it).. he is saying that the Creator and Lucifer/Shaitan/Ahriman are ALL ONE THING!!!

How flippin hard is that to understand?

Do I need to transcribe the other two Lucifer quotes in M & D to prove my point some more??

Also, if you read his writings on the 26º Prince of Mercy, you will find that, while he is talking about how Masons have no place to tell other people their beliefs are false, he is actually divulging a lot about his true beliefs in how he points out (what he perceives as) the flaws in the Christian belief that JC was the messiah.

Do I need to transcribe this or will you go read it (obviously you all own M&D or you wouldn't be arguing right?) for yourself and then come back and tell me I'm lying and falsifying and "taking words out of context"?

----------------------------------------------------

EDIT:

Do any of you Mason's know what your "Blazing Star" (the upside down pentagram in your lodge, well unless you're in New York and then it MAY be right-side up) is meant to signify??

What do you think it is? Can you tell? I will be happy to say it since I'm not under any oath to keep it secret.

Ever heard of the Order of the Silver Star?

EDIT 3:
I had better be clear here... I am NOT saying that the Order of the Silver Star is a masonic organization. It is clearly NOT a masonic organization. But the significance behind the name of this most highest and most secret Order of Aleister Crowley (one which the name is never written out as such) absolutely does explain the true meaning of the Blazing Star in the masonic lodge.

----------------------------------------------------

EDIT 2:

And one more thing.. I'm not saying Masonry is "evil"... just that it has no symbiotic or analogous relationship with Christianity, the belief that JC was the messiah and that Lucifer/Shaitan/Ahriman/Typhon/Loki/Ba'al/Molekh etc... etc... are SEPARATE from YHVH God the father.

Christianity is essentially a dualistic belief system (which I have my doubts about - even as a professed Christ-worshipper) and Masonry attempts to blend ALL of the world's belief systems about "God" into one system, which is a men's club, who are infatuated with titles, positions, climbing ladders and acquiring inflential roles in world affairs.

If the "religious" aspects of Masonry are so un-important... and if the "governmental" aspects of Masonry are also so un-important... then WHY do you guys spend SO MUCH TIME adorning yourselves in worldly regalia and titles? Why do masons constantly write about and brag about Freemasonic presidents and Politicians? ... and rewarding presidents with Masonic medals, which is, in essence: yet another way of many ways you guys exalt yourselves into the positions of Gods of this World..

Has the connection between Anders Breverik and the masons been explained yet in his trial?

This just occurred to me:

If Freemasonry has no interest in discussing "religion" in the lodge, then how come Morals & Dogma - a mostly-religious book, which proposes that the Hermetic religion, as well as the religions of the various ancient Mystery Traditions, (ie, Platonic, Kemetic, Osirian as well as the Canaanite) and their rituals are the highest order of truth - is one of, if not THE most essential book one can read as a Freemason??

It is a religious book which preaches the Hermetic religion: UNITY: it's all one thing...
And this is a non-Christian belief which, if one believes in the Bible, fulfills the prophecies about false prophets.
Being linked with government (but wanting to appear not to be) just takes it to the next level.. (because the bible says the deceiver will rule all the gov'ts of the world) then when you see the world governments' plan to bring about a One World nation-less state, it becomes a slam dunk for the biblical prophecies.
I'm not expecting this POV to be a popular one.. even with the non-Masons.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
You should read the comments Hall made regarding himself after he joined when reflecting on this particular work.

I have, and I'm sure that his reasons for making these comments (as you said "after he joined") are what obviously comes to mind when any sane person reads his comments, (after reading his books) and thinks about it for a second.
1) He was embarrassed for having written about it as a profane plebian piss-on and 2) he felt he squeezed a lil' bit of toothpaste out of a tube that he could not put back in the tube. So his nose had been rubbed in the pooh he did on the nice, clean, checkered floor and he was a bad doggy.

Yeah I'm sure he felt like after joining he learned some things from an inside vantage point that may have given him other perspectives, but that doesn't mean he was wrong in what he said and that "the seething powers of Lucifer" that he wrote about a Master Mason having "in his hands", had nothing to do with the powers conferred on a Theoretical level, from the allegorical play level, which Freemasonry cloaks its Craft behind. What is the Craft? It is not simply a play. Actors refer to their work as "The Craft" also for a reason. And the two masks of drama are analogous with the dual nature of other "Crafts". One for the outside, one for the inside. Façade, encoded meaning, esoteric & exoteric.

As with acting, if one suspends their disbelief in the mundane action being performed, they are transported by the actors, (this is the highest working of the Craft) to a higher level action being performed. This is where the true powers of any ritual-performing secret society are held. Well, also in the fact that they hold positions in places of power. To say anything otherwise, is either not giving credit where credit is due, or trying to deny an obvious guilt, to claim innocence.

Bacon and Shakespeare is a perfect example. The Shakespearean plays are a level of encoding of freemasonic ritual, that is a layer of encoding, upon another layer of encoding. If one decodes the second level (actual ceremony) then they get past the play(s) into the inner meaning which is an occult pathworking.
The Keys of King Solomon and the banishing and invocation rituals of the hexagram and the pentagram.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
This just occurred to me:
I'm not expecting this POV to be a popular one.. even with the non-Masons.

The last two posts definitely win me over.
I am not a Freemason and I do not ever intend on becoming one. For sure!
However, I am pro mason. It's just that with you I find it hard to continue to go on like that.
You have'nt spooked me in a while, but I'll always remember you as "Spooky Pal"
Now I must go and read that 600 page book M&D. I too had it ten years ago and coudln't find the patience needed to get past the 1st degree lecture. I threw that one and five other books to garbage.
BUT! I believe about Freemason that in the 13th Degree: The finite Lesson is "STAND MY GROUND!"
With you it's hard to do so....

You're a Grand and Great Addition to "ATS"... AND! Also... You're a "Spooky Pal"...

Originally posted by Pinocchio

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
This just occurred to me:
I'm not expecting this POV to be a popular one.. even with the non-Masons.

The last two posts definitely win me over.
I am not a Freemason and I do not ever intend on becoming one. For sure!
However, I am pro mason. It's just that with you I find it hard to continue to go on like that.
You have'nt spooked me in a while, but I'll always remember you as "Spooky Pal"

Now I must go and read that 600 page book M&D. I too had it ten years ago and coudln't find the patience needed to get past the 1st degree lecture. I threw that one and five other books to garbage.
BUT! I believe about Freemason that in the 13th Degree: The finite Lesson is "STAND MY GROUND!"
With you it's hard to do so....

You're a Grand and Great Addition to "ATS"... AND! Also... You're a "Spooky Pal"...

Thank you for the much needed support here... I do appreciate somebody "getting it"!
I just want to stand my ground for *my personal truth*, because each time I bring up these valid points, they cherry-pick my posts for errors like an attorney investigating someone's life to find discrepancies which they could use to weaken their credibility, which would prevent them from operating.

I have edited my last few posts to fix typos, clarify certain areas which may have been unclear and to add points which reinforce what I am trying to say. Just pointing out my own edits (errors) to level the playing field.

reply to post by LeonoraTenen

That's not what I see when I read that paragraph.

You're going to have your interpretations, but don't presume to think that it is the interpretation or policy of the Masonic fraternity, particularly that of the Scottish Rite which seems to be your focus.

Blazing Star signifies Providence.

Order of the Silver Star? Isn't it another Crowley group? Who cares?

We don't spend "so much time" adorning ourselves nor exalt ourselves to positions of godhood.

reply to post by LeonoraTenen

Again, you're confusing Scottish Rite Masonry, a branch of the tree, with the Blue Lodge. Contrasting, in the York Rite it is predominately Christian, particularly in the Chivalric Orders which requires one to be a Christian and we pray to Christ.

Morals & Dogma is not a religious text. It expresses tolerance of other unities, not exactly acceptance of their beliefs.

reply to post by LeonoraTenen

Well, you're going to believe whatever you're going to believe - right or wrong.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Wait. You actually want someone to read Morals and Dogma before quoting it? How are they supposed to take things out of context then? Knucklehead.

Knucklehead huh? I see you're in NJ.. hang out at the Jersey Shores much? Huh bish?

Not that I want or need to be involved in this, Augustus was playfully calling on of the other masons on this board a knucklhead. Not you. Put a bit of ointment on that knee, and the next time it jerks, it won't hurt so much.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
I see you're in NJ.. hang out at the Jersey Shores much? Huh bish?

Mostly Cape May, the restaurants are better there.

I have M & D and have read it cover to cover once (10 years ago) and have read sections of it multiple times more recently. Have you ever thought for one second that maybe people will interpret his words in different ways?

What does 'interpreting his words different' have to do with your throw away comment about Lucifer mentions? Unless of course from your cover to cover digestion of the tome you had some reading comprehension issues and became confused with the words actual usage.

Did I ever say Pike WORSHIPPED Lucifer? No I didn't.

Irrelevant non-sequitor strawman, I never said you did.

Here is Morals & Dogma page 324 (I re-typed this page from the book in its entirety)... knucklehead.

...

This is exactly what I am talking about. I shouldn't really need to break this down.. but since you guys are too effin thickheaded to either understand, or admit what he's saying (and you continue to ARGUE about it).. he is saying that the Creator and Lucifer/Shaitan/Ahriman are ALL ONE THING!!!

Sorry Mr. Potato Head, he is saying that God is responsible for both good and evil as Pike did not believe in the Devil/Satan. But you knew this from your extensive research and comprehensive knowledge of Albert Pike because read a book by him ten years ago.

How flippin hard is that to understand?

Obviously for you, very.

Do I need to transcribe the other two Lucifer quotes in M & D to prove my point some more??

Sure, if it helps you convice yourself that Pike believed in something that he did not.

Also, if you read his writings on the 26º Prince of Mercy, you will find that, while he is talking about how Masons have no place to tell other people their beliefs are false, he is actually divulging a lot about his true beliefs in how he points out (what he perceives as) the flaws in the Christian belief that JC was the messiah.

I agree with him that the Christian belief that Jesus was the Messiah is flawed. Among a host of other issues.

Do I need to transcribe this or will you go read it (obviously you all own M&D or you wouldn't be arguing right?) for yourself and then come back and tell me I'm lying and falsifying and "taking words out of context"?

I think I would describe it as more 'willfully ignorant' then out of context. Once again, Pike did not believe there was/is a Devil.

Do any of you Mason's know what your "Blazing Star" (the upside down pentagram in your lodge, well unless you're in New York and then it MAY be right-side up) is meant to signify??

What do you think it is? Can you tell? I will be happy to say it since I'm not under any oath to keep it secret.

Acutally, in our jurisdiction it has eight sides and its meaning is described in the Entered Apprentice Degree as:

The Ornaments of a lodge are the Mosaic Pavement, the Indented Tessel and the Balzing Star. The Mosaic Pavement is a representation of the ground floor of King Solomon's Temple; and the Indented Tessel, of that beautiful tessellated border which surrounded it.

The Mosaic Pavement is emblematical of human life, checkered with good and evil. The beautiful border which surrounds it is emblematical of those manifold blessing and comforts which surround us, and which we owe to the bounty of Divine Providence, which is hieroglyphically represented by the Blazing Star in the Center.

So it is fairly clear to anyone who has participated or read the ritual that the Blazing Star represents Divine Providence, because, you know, it actually says that. But nice try with the Crowley reference. Maybe you can further dazzle us with your vast wealth of knowledge regarding Masonic symbolism.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
...then how come Morals & Dogma - a mostly-religious book...is one of, if not THE most essential book one can read as a Freemason??

Really? How is a book titled Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of the Southern Jurisdiction relevant to non-Scottish Rite Masons (which the majority of Masons happen to be) and to Northern Jurisdiction Scottish Rite Masons who do not share all of the same degrees with their Southern Jurisdiction cousins?

...it becomes a slam dunk for the biblical prophecies.
I'm not expecting this POV to be a popular one.. even with the non-Masons.

'Bible-prophecies'? Really? Maybe we can cite Miss Cleo as well. Her predictions are just as accurate.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus








@ network dude

Originally posted by network dude
Not that I want or need to be involved in this, Augustus was playfully calling on of the other masons on this board a knucklhead.

Actually it was just Ksig. I like the rest of you.

Thank you Masons on this thread - I feel I have a lot better understanding of what you (Masons) are about and also what you are not about.

.

My grandfather was also a 33rd degree mason who worked for Nasa engineering platforms ...

On a basic level they all seem to be decent people sure they have their percentage of sociopaths like every other group .

I dispute their level of involvement in the pyramids other than some discontinuous lineage ... and I doubt their knowledge of its true working form .

I'm also sure they do have a nefarious element in their midst ...

And No I'm not a fellow .... bla bla bla

So forget the creepy handshake

.

reply to post by R0CR13


Most masons who have done the research would agree with your assessment, we didn't have anything to do with the pyramids.

Aside from that, if its true your grandpa was a 33* that's pretty awesome. A rare degree to attain in the Masonic world. Any way, there's nothing creepy about our handshakes.......

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

Huh?! Awe, I'm a sad panda now.