Incompetent People Too Ignorant to Know It

reply to post by Azadok


You know Azadok I guess I would have to say yes, being in an extreme environment does allow you to appreciate the little pleasures/things in life. You tend to take in the small things and really observe whats around you, and I can say there is beauty in most things, a simple cup of bad tea has its rewards

Mainly however I remember the last time I held my wife, mother, father and brothers when on leave and the memory of this sustains me.

There is no room for negativity or pesamism here, only optimism and positivity, regardless of your situation...

Sniper

Having spent a fair bit of time in tech support, I have also noticed that incompetent people are also *generally* the quickest to anger.

Please explain to me how this is some new break through............

This is tantamount to tone deaf people not realizing they're horrible at singing.

Why bother to waste your time attempting to explain "color" to a blind person?

Originally posted by AlonzoTyper
Please explain to me how this is some new break through............

This is tantamount to tone deaf people not realizing they're horrible at singing.

Why bother to waste your time attempting to explain "color" to a blind person?

Frankly, it wasn't. I was mistaken when I thought this "news" was breaking because I failed to note that while both source articles were recently dated, they referred to a study done over a decade ago.

The truth is, it would be presumptuous for me to assume the original research was done for any other reason than to quantify for scientists the nature of the tendency for people to overestimate their personal attributes. A tone deaf person must surely recognize that their appreciation for music differs from others simply because of the social environment. Being tone-deaf or blind is recognize by most cultures and societies as a 'deficiency'... perhaps because it is easily compared by common experience.

Competence - however - is not a trait... it is a perception of ability. Therefore by making the study refer to competence it can be attributed to any person doing a 'self-assessment' of their own abilities. Blind people probably don't go around saying "I understand color and how people perceive it" any more than a deaf person can watch an MTV video and determine that a particular singer "sounds good."

But the ability to make a judgement, carry out a process, or create and apply a concept is a different matter entirely. Such self-assessments are important socially speaking because we traditionally separate ourselves into a hierarchy of responsibilities and authority... in theory this is directly related to an individuals competence to be in the position. Nowadays however, such positions are a matter of "selling oneself" or "being sold on an individual" - never more relevant than during an election maybe?

Sadly, this research serves to diminish anyone's claim of competence by demonstrating that people are generally incapable of correctly assessing their own level of competence. In fact, those who would question their own competence are more likely to be better equipped to deal with certain things than those who openly proclaim their superiority in terms of 'competence'....

It just contributes to the mind shearing Kafka-esque "newspeak" with which we are constantly being distracted.

Common sense should still prevail... presumably.

reply to post by navy_vet_stg3


Or "Welcome to CostCo, I love you".

That is another gem right there.

reply to post by Maxmars


I personally have few delusions regarding my intelligence and competency. While I have a very high IQ, I am far from the brightest bulb on the tree. There are thousands upon thousands of things in the world that I know nothing about and I am not at all afraid to admit that.

I love the timing of this OP because here in the US the current field of GOP presidential hopefuls is absolutely the best illustration of this phenomenon ever.

You can't know you're ignorant and be ignorant at the same time.

Originally posted by Merlin Lawndart
You can't know you're ignorant and be ignorant at the same time.

I wouldn't be too hasty in affirming that theory.

Our political thespians and their masters seem to challenge that position more frequently than not.

I have a suspicion that nearly every committee in government is replete with people whose only competence to deliberate policy is the stake they hold in it's final products .. not the subject matter itself.

Hence the routine nature of their apparent "cooperation" in destroying the fabric of the nation. The ignorant can be 'directed'... especially if you convince them that - by decree - they are the "authority" on the matter.

My kids and my dog still think I am a demigod so that's all that matters. My wife figured out a long time ago that I am a little less than godlike to say the least. For some reason I can't quite comprehend, she still loves me anyway.

Seriously though, I hire new people all the time, and I am amazed at how self confident some of these applicants are. They walk into my office having absolutely no idea what we even do, but they are sure that they are already experts. I enjoy taking them down a notch or two by giving them a few simple engineering problems. Once they are sufficiently humbled we can start talking about the possibility of employment. The ones fresh out of college are the worst. They don't know what they don't know, but they think they know it all.

reply to post by Sparky63


Working in a university environment I see this all the time.

Occasionally I have done the evil thing and demonstrated how much some of these 'experts' don't know.

Sadly, it is mostly lost on them... especially since the hallmark of today's higher education experience is the propaganda that the students are the product of 'elite' conditioning and training par excellence.

It is sort of sad.

Most of them grow out of it though.... eventually.

reply to post by Maxmars


Thx...im emailing this to all my bosses haha...kidding...kind of.....in a messed up way..this is one of the most refreshing posts I have seen on here..Ive been noticing and saying this the last few years and now there is data!

Originally posted by NoHierarchy
This is the Dunning-Kruger Effect

en.wikipedia.org...

Thanks for the link. Very interesting to see that it has BIG cultural factor in the mix. Different results depending the culture/location where it was tested. And most "inteligent" people here wont be able grasp this fact. The irony.

At the end this thread will resume to bunch of L.O.L icons.

With regard to politicians; It has always amazed me how they can convince so many people that they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Some of their followers can become rabid with blind allegiance, to the point that that they will consider any criticism directed toward their chosen one as an act of treason worthy of the harshest punishment. They stand ready to excoriate and question the very character of those in the opposite camp while excusing or ignoring any faults of their own candidate.

The candidates themselves must also believe that they can do no wrong for many of them claim to have been told by God to pursue whatever elected position they are seeking. I don't know if they actually believe this themselves or if they are just playing the religion card to gain support.

For me, it is bizarre and unnatural to put so much confidence in any person. But then again, I am weird, or so I have been told.

I have always suspected this, there's too much stupidity followed in the world. It's the dumb leading da dumb and they are all ignorant of each other. A stupid man is king among the dumb asses he represents.

This certainly goes far in explaining politics over the last decade. Instead of simply admitting to ourselves and others that "I don't know" about any given subject we've been spoon fed shovels full of bs to be taken as "fact" (think lead up to the Iraq war or the rich pay too much in taxes here) to support positions that benefit those in power.
Our own pride and vanity has crippled our capacity for critical thought leaving a vacuum the media is only too happy to fill.
That's why after an evening of watching "Fair and balanced" news we can all claim to be well informed on the subject at hand.
The PTB are hoping there's enough incompetence to go around they can garner support for yet one more war or one more extension of the Bush tax cuts.
Sadly, there probably is but I'm making a guess here because I really don't know.

how they can convince so many people that they are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

There is not so much to explain, because it is indeed true that MANY (50%? 60%?, 75%?) are totally stupid, uneducated etc...and MOST IMPORTANTLY do not vote or make decisions based on intellect or logical thinking (or by means of evaluation etc.) but instead EMOTIONALLY.

The average hick from Kentucky or Texas etc...do you think he has any deep insight into politics? Not only that, most even don't even know what "socialism", "communism" actually is etc....they form an opinion not by having used their brain but simply based on emotions. And MANY people work like this.

A politician nowadays does not "argue" lengthy and with brilliant intellect and wit, impressing the "smart people" and therefore gaining votes - but by going on some show/debate on TV and then talking trivial shiate and promising things like the frequently heard promise of "tax cuts".

You will see that "tax cuts" is ALWAYS a big topic with all elections and politicians since the average Joe Hick can only think so far...and eg. "tax cuts" sounds always "good"...

Joe Hick from Kentucky and millions of like-minded people will usually NOT vote for candidate X because he has a brilliant strategy or is the "better" candidate...but simply because one candidate promises tax cuts or other "simple" things..or even based on how one candidate looked better in a debate on TV compared to another candidate.

And..as to your question how they "can convince":

Well, uhm..it's POLITICIANS...their whole goal and purpose is to CONVINCE people no matter what it takes, because they need their votes. If we assume that the avg. politician is smart (respective the people behind them)..they know *exactly* what buttons to press, what emotions to stir and how to talk to the common, average Joe to gain their votes. It's their whole purpose and what their profession is about.

reply to post by Maxmars
The Peter Principle.
Where people rise their own level of incompetence.

(forgive if this has been brought up)

But that's what the OP and thread title brought to mind.

Cheers

Originally posted by Iwinder

Good thread and I am wondering if this "No child left behind" or nobody fails and everyone gets a trophy just for being here today has anything to do with these findings.

I totally agree with your comment and was once bashed by a group of my co-workers for telling them I wouldn't lie to my kids and tell them they were "winners" or "special" if they were not. They thought that I would be a cruel parent, but I argued that it would be more cruel to spend a lifetime encouraging a child who is tone deaf that they sound amazing and will be a world famous singer one day. If they planned on becoming a professsional singer, based on the lies, it would be devastating for them to learn the truth years later and have their dreams shattered. Also, they would probably have less motivation and dedication to keep improving because they already think they are the best and become lazy, a bad quality for anyone.

It's better to tell people when they are losers or lacking and give them the encouragement to do better and work harder, than give out trophies for failing. I feel like that is the main cause of failure in the American political and business systems, no one is holding Congress or CEOs responsible for failure.

You shouldn't walk away with millions of dollars, prizes, or lifetime pensions when you fail, it provides no incentive to succeed and do better.

The worst part is this attitude is systemic to the whole US population.

Originally posted by flexy123
snip
And..as to your question how they "can convince":

Well, uhm..it's POLITICIANS...their whole goal and purpose is to CONVINCE people no matter what it takes, because they need their votes. If we assume that the avg. politician is smart (respective the people behind them)..they know *exactly* what buttons to press, what emotions to stir and how to talk to the common, average Joe to gain their votes. It's their whole purpose and what their profession is about.

edit on 29-2-2012 by flexy123 because: (no reason given)

You only grabbed a part of my sentence. I wasn't asking a question, I was making a statement. But I do appreciate you analysis of the subject. I agree that politicians are experts at pushing people's buttons and getting most to commit to their cause based on emotion. I would expand this scenario well beyond Joe Hick though. I think the whole point of this study was to demonstrate that many who consider themselves part of the "elite" or "enlightened" class are really deceiving themselves. They are probably not much different than Joe Hick after all.

The smartest man I ever met was from Kentucky. Sorry, had to give a shout out to my dad! I'm sure he will be reading this.