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Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by Akragon
I know that they believe in hidden knowledge, and therefore think they are superior to the folk religions that they hijack. They subscribe to any number of beliefs, whether it is reincarnation, the idea that the physical is evil, or that they hold the secret teaching of mankind.
Gnosticism appeals to people who think of themselves wise or subscribe to conspiracy theories about the mainstream.
I know the mainstream is true because I myself notice how differently the bible reads depending on your state of mind. If you think the mainstream is wrong it reads one way. If you have faith that is traditional it makes sense. Jesus said you must enter the kingdom as a child, so I don't think all these knowledgeable elites understand the gospel.edit on 23-2-2012 by 547000 because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Akragon
True gnostics apparently...
• do not accept or believe ALL of the Bible
• do not believe in original sin.
• do not believe that mankind is inherently evil.
• do not believe in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. For the doctrine of blood atonement presents a God who demands the human sacrifice of an innocent man, and any God who demands murder to appease justice is unworthy of worship or adoration.
• do not believe in hell or final judgment. For the doctrine of hell and eternal torment are immoral beliefs, and the doctrine of final judgment perverts and distorts mercy, compassion, and forgiveness.
• do not believe in Jehovah. However, true Gnostics do accept that the biblical Jehovah is a demiurge, an evil monster who would present himself as God in order to confuse mankind with regard to what is truly right and wrong.
• do not believe in a devil which leads people into sin. Humankind has produced enough devils of its own without having to create the fictional variety in order to explain the evil that people do against each other. We are accountable to God for our acts of inhumanity towards each other. There is no devil to bring to account
Not that im a gnostic.. but to disregard their scripture is an error in my humble opinion
. . . Sophia of course was a deity in Gnostic beliefs . . .
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by cloudyday
. . . Sophia of course was a deity in Gnostic beliefs . . .
In Aristotelian Stoicism, sophia was science, and logos was reason.
I think people have a tendency to overlook what the mainstream philosophical meanings of those Greek words were at the time Christianity was starting out, and they don't have to be automatically looked at in gnostic terms.edit on 23-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)
. . . Church Practices by Frank Viola . . .
A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If then I am a father, where is my honor? And if I am a master, where is my fear? says the Lord of hosts to you, O priests, who despise my name. You say, 'How have we despised thy name?' By offering polluted food upon my altar. And you say, 'How have we polluted it?' By thinking that the Lord's table may be despised. When you offer blind animals in sacrifice, is that no evil? And when you offer those that are lame or sick, is that no evil? Present that to your governor; will he be pleased with you or show you favor? says the Lord of hosts. And now entreat the favor of God, that he may be gracious to us. With such a gift from your hand, will he show favor to any of you? says the Lord of hosts. Oh, that there were one among you who would shut the doors, that you might not kindle fire upon my altar in vain! I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord of hosts, and I will not accept an offering from your hand. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.
. . . You're missing the big part . . .
The last sentence here indicates to me that you have joined forces with the antichrist. You do have a chance to repent of your evil and to join Christianity. The reason I say this is that you are repeating this key slogan of Messianic Judaism which is neither Judaism or Christianity. The purpose of the slogan is to do two things at once: 1. to relegate the status of Jesus to a mere pattern of excellence (but an excellence in the already held beliefs of the Jews), and 2. vindicating them (what is in the preceding parentheses, the now defunct former religious system of laws). Neither of these are correct, in that Jesus never claimed to keep the Law as presented in his time, much less perfectly, and in fact Jesus pointed out the flaws in the Law and set himself above Moses and the Pharisees and the temple priests, as the giver of a New Law, one which preserved the fundamental spiritual principles behind them, that come from the true God, which he knew integrally since he was God.
Originally posted by 547000
Read up on the church fathers. Because you insist on divorcing the Old Testament from Christianity you can't see it. It's quite clearly talking about God no longer accepting Jewish sacrifices but accepting a pure one from Gentiles. Of course it is referring to the future.
The messianic prophecies were written in present tense too. Jesus is quite literally the Word of God.
. . . your disgust is not a new thing.
You expressed disgust in another thread.
How long ago someone made that interpretation, in my way of thinking, is irrelevant, unless it was done by Jesus or an Apostle. Can you cite a canon of a Ecumenical Council?
First of all that interpretation of Malachi has been around since the start of the church. It's certainly not novel.
Your recollection of the thread is flawed since I would never say something like that. I did make a remark about how it is done, exactly, where I distinguished between two ways of doing it, one way being what the Catholics do is by having a single individual priest officiate over the mass, while the other way is to have a group of elders officiate over it, which was a traditional Reformed way, at least how it was done in the church I grew up in.
Secondly you expressed disgust and other protestants called it cannibalism. I don't remember the thread but it was one of them.
Assemble on the Lord’s Day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist: but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23—24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, "Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations" [Mal. 1:11, 14] (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
Clement of Rome
Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4-5 [A.D. 95]).
Ignatius of Antioch
Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his blood, and one single altar of sacrifice —even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).
God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: "I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles" [Mal. 1:10-11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist (Dialogue with Trypho 41 [A.D. 155]).
He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, "This is my body." The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand: "You do not do my will, says the Lord Almighty, and I will no accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is my name among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty" [Mal. 1:10-11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. I89]).
If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is himself the high priest of God the Father; and if he offered himself as a sacrifice to the Father; and if he commanded that this be done in commemoration of himself, then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, truly functions in place of Christ (Letters 63:14 [A.D 253]).
Accept therewith our hallowing too, as we say, "Holy, holy, holy Lord Sabaoth, heaven and earth is full of your glory." Heaven is full, and full is the earth, with your magnificent glory, Lord of virtues. Full also is this sacrifice, with your strength and your communion; for to you we offer this living sacrifice, this unbloody oblation (Prayer of the Eucharistic Sacrifice 13:12-16 [A.D.350]).
Then, having sanctified ourselves by these spiritual hymns, we beseech the merciful God to send forth his Holy Spirit upon the gifts lying before him, that he may make the bread the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ, for whatsoever the Holy Spirit has touched is surely sanctified and changed. Then, upon the completion of the spiritual sacrifice, the bloodless worship, over that propitiatory victim we call upon God for the common peace of the churches, for the welfare of the world, for kings, for soldiers and allies, for the sick, for the afflicted; and in summary, we all pray and offer this sacrifice for all who are in need (Catechetical Lectures 23:7-8 [A.D. 350]).
Ambrose of Milan
We saw the prince of priests coming to us, we saw and heard him offering his blood for us. We follow, inasmuch as we are able, being priests, and we offer the sacrifice on behalf of the people. Even if we are of but little merit, still, in the sacrifice, we are honorable. Even if Christ is not now seen as the one who offers the sacrifice, nevertheless it is he himself that is offered in sacrifice here on earth when the body of Christ is offered. Indeed, to offer himself he is made visible in us, he whose word makes holy the sacrifice that is offered (Commentaries on twelve Psalms of David 38:25 [A.D. 389]).