The Achilles' Heel of Protestantism

Here is an article from a protestant historian.

reply to post by 547000


Me brainwashed? This coming from someone who is being told they are worshipping pagan gods and idols and who refuses to see what they are doing? You're blind dude. Ever hear of the "great deception? Your're part of it. You and anyone else who calls themselves a christian but instead of worshipping the true God and Messiah youre duped into worshipping Mithra. Youre not christian, youre anti-christian. Your christmas celebrates the birth of Nimrod and your Easter celebrates Ishtar (pronunced Eashter) the "Queen of Heaven" decending to the earth and making rabbits lay eggs so pagan peoples can sacrifice their kids and dip the eggs in their blood and consume them (just like dipping boiled eggs in the dye, which is symbolism for what youre doing). This same Ishtar who is actually Semiramis the wife/mother of Nimrod.

Thats right, your catholicism...and even protestantism (if they do these holidays) are worshipping Nimrod...not the Messiah and definately not Yahweh.

Why don't you do a little research on Mithraism? Every pagan religion has a trinity...of FATHER, MOTHER (Queen of Heaven) and BABY SON.

Nimrod, Semiramis, Tammuz
Isis, Horus, Seb

The list goes on an on in an exhaustive list.

Ishtar is also the "Whore of Babylon"
Easter the Whore of Babylon.

The title of Queen of Heaven has been given to many goddesses, here's a list of them.

Mary (Roman Catholic version, stamped and sealed by the False Prophet himself...the POPE)
Ishtar
Astarte
Ashtoreth
Hera
Isis
Aphrodite
Inanna

All of which are based on...Semiramis the wife/mother of Nimrod. Thats right, theyre all the same damned person...all based on Semiramis.

Still want to hide in the sand? You think you worship God and his Son Yeshua, but youre actually worshipping Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz.

WAKE UP! You're a part of the great deception who believes they are doing right when they are really doing wrong. Yeshua was not born on december 25th, but every fake god incarnation of Nimrod was. Yeshua was born during Tishri around Sukkot the Feast of Tabernacles which falls between the months of September and October. Were not just in the Great Deception but also The Great Falling Away. Early christians didn't celebrate Christmas, go read Tertullian's writings, they refused to put fir trees in their homes and decorate their doors with wreaths and give gifts like the roman pagans did during the holiday of Saturnalia...which is really Christmas that celebrates the roman god Saturn...who just so happens looks just like the roman catholic depiction of Jesus.

Matthew 15:8-9

8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’

Again, do you know anything of church history or are you just spouting off crazy conspiracy theories? Someone with that type of logic could just as well conclude that Christianity itself is pagan and Jesus was a rehash because of the similarities of Him and mythical figures.

The truth will set you free, but you care nothing of truth. The history makes it clear that Protestantism has no grounds to stand on. Why you don't Christianity's foundational history? I think you might be fortunate because you are ignorant. You will spend less time in purgatory than those who know the truth but refuse to listen to it. The more you insult Mary the more wrath you will heap up for yourself.

Every pope tries to fine tune Catholicism to leave his mark. It's like the legal code in the United States; it keeps getting more and more complicated with every court case. I don't think the Catholics claim they are unchanged from the early church. I think they claim that they are the one and only Church, and the Church is always gaining in understanding and God is taking care of His Church.

If you want a Church that has changed less then you should be Orthodox. My understanding is that the Orthodox haven't changed anything significant for 1000 years or more. I think that can be attributed to the decay of the Byzantine Empire and the resulting lack of leadership which made it difficult to reach any agreements.

Personally, I hope the Catholics are wrong, because I hate all that metaphysical philosophical theological mumbo jumbo that they push. The Orthodox claim to be different, but I think they're just as bad or worse in different ways.

I think Protestants are good, because they generally aren't as arrogant. Catholics and Orthodox have institutionalized arrogance. But your best bet is to steer clear of all religions.

Originally posted by cloudyday
Every pope tries to fine tune Catholicism to leave his mark. It's like the legal code in the United States; it keeps getting more and more complicated with every court case. I don't think the Catholics claim they are unchanged from the early church. I think they claim that they are the one and only Church, and the Church is always gaining in understanding and God is taking care of His Church.

If you want a Church that has changed less then you should be Orthodox. My understanding is that the Orthodox haven't changed anything significant for 1000 years or more. I think that can be attributed to the decay of the Byzantine Empire and the resulting lack of leadership which made it difficult to reach any agreements.

Personally, I hope the Catholics are wrong, because I hate all that metaphysical philosophical theological mumbo jumbo that they push. The Orthodox claim to be different, but I think they're just as bad or worse in different ways.

I think Protestants are good, because they generally aren't as arrogant. Catholics and Orthodox have institutionalized arrogance. But your best bet is to steer clear of all religions.

edit on 21-2-2012 by cloudyday because: (no reason given)

The problem with ALL religions is they think their version is the right one. The problem with christianity is each denomination thinks their docrine is right.

The truth is they all leave something to be desired, which is a faith totally devoid of paganism brought in by the roman catholics.

People think they can worship and serve Yahweh and serve false gods and demons at the same time and he doesn't work that way and he tells you that in the old testament. Yah is unchanging, he is the same now as he ever was. What has changed is how people sell him as him as changing and being different than he is and that is a lie. If self styled "christians" think they can partake in pagan rituals and worship false gods like the roman catholic version of Jesus called Saturn and celebrate his birthday december 25th on the festival of christmas a.k.a. Saturnalia then they are in for a rude awakening. The R.C.C. is the whore of babylon because they jumped in bed with paganism before Christ had been gone 2 hours in heaven's timeline.

Originally posted by 547000
Again, do you know anything of church history or are you just spouting off crazy conspiracy theories? Someone with that type of logic could just as well conclude that Christianity itself is pagan and Jesus was a rehash because of the similarities of Him and mythical figures.

The truth will set you free, but you care nothing of truth. The history makes it clear that Protestantism has no grounds to stand on. Why you don't Christianity's foundational history? I think you might be fortunate because you are ignorant. You will spend less time in purgatory than those who know the truth but refuse to listen to it. The more you insult Mary the more wrath you will heap up for yourself.

I know more about church history than you do clearly. I also know more about pagan mythologies and where your particular brand of Mithraism comes from. You who worship Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz. Read Tertullian's writings if you have the guts to face the lies you've been brainwashed into believing all your life. Your already in full swing of the great deception, which is why you cannot wake up no matter how i try to point you at the truth. Your magic beads and magic water will not save you.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Quit being silly and read up on what the early church believed. The bible says you must seek the truth. If you refuse to learn this in an age where we have the internet, what will you say to God once you are standing in front of Him? If you must love the Lord even more than your father and mother and brother and sister, Protestantism must be abandoned because it is a lie, regardless of how uncomfortable leaving Protestantism is.

Again, I invite you to research what the apostles and their immediate successors taught and think about the implications logically.

547000, you ought to at least read some church history from a non-Catholic source. Get a different perspective on things.

reply to post by cloudyday


I have evaluated both sources. I started as an atheist, then a protestant view, then a catholic view. The evidence speaks for itself.

Anti-Catholic protestants use fear rather than logic to state their claims.

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by cloudyday

 

I have evaluated both sources. I started as an atheist, then a protestant view, then a catholic view. The evidence speaks for itself.

Anti-Catholic protestants use fear rather than logic to state their claims.

edit on 22-2-2012 by 547000 because: (no reason given)

Having been Orthodox, I know that the evidence doesn't speak for itself as far as Catholic claims to being the one and only Church. If you haven't read some Orthodox authors maybe you should add them to your knowledge. Catholics think their differences with the Orthodox are about hierarchy but Orthodox think their differences are about theology. I don't think the Orthodox have it right but they show that Christianity is bigger than Catholicism.

I never understood why the catholics worship mary considering

While He (Jesus) was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, 'Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.' "But He answered and said to the one who told Him, 'Who is My mother and who are My brothers?' And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, 'Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.' " (Matthew 12:46-50

Jesus clearly seems to consider mary just another regular person. Id rather believe Jesus over the pope or the catholic church. what i dont understand is how can catholics worship mary a women but not allow women to be priests?

reply to post by vaelamin


No one worships Mary. Mary is venerated.

reply to post by cloudyday

Are you referring to the filoque? That and papacy seem to be the main differences.

reply to post by 547000


Do they not bow down and pray to her?

reply to post by vaelamin


No, we ask her to pray for us. Of all the saints she is the greatest.

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by cloudyday

 

Are you referring to the filoque? That and papacy seem to be the main differences.

From the Orthodox perspective the filioque and the papacy aren't the biggest issues. Maybe start a thread about the differences between Catholic and Orthodox you can get feedback from one of the Orthodox ATS members. There seem to be some very knowledgable Orthodox members.

Here is a link to a website that touches on one of the issues.

In the Orthodox Church we believe that God reveals Himself to us in truth. This means, basically, that as human beings we have the inherent ability to know God directly and simply i.e., personally. Just as Enoch and Noah “walked with God,” (Gen. 5:24, 6:9), and just as Moses “spoke with the Lord face to face, as a man speaks to a friend,” (Ex. 33:11), so are we able to enter into the same intimate communion with the Triune God. The knowledge of God that is the outgrowth of becoming united with Him is what we call theology. As such, all genuine theology is not merely the knowledge about God, but the knowledge of God – because it is experiential in nature.

In Western Christendom, unfortunately, theology came to be just this – the knowledge about God. Unlike the Christian East, theology became something scholastic, something appropriated to academicians who conversed with each other over philosophical abstractions. Even today, the discipline of theology in most American seminaries, both Roman Catholic and Protestant, remains, for the most part, thoroughly scholastic. Some of the more “liberal” theologians have even gone so far as to conclude that nothing reliable can ever be known about God. According to this line of thinking, God (or whoever he or she or it happens to be) is so far above and beyond our human realm that he/she/it cannot be understood.

...

Even so, it is important for us to remember what St. Gregory the Theologian once said. “For we do not theologize in the manner of Aristotle, (that is in the abstract way of the philosophers), but in the manner of the fishermen” – referring of course to the Holy Apostles. For St. Gregory, theology is the outcome of the living encounter with God the Father, through His Son and in the Holy Spirit. St. Anthony the Great touches on this as well when he says, “The theologian is the one who prays, and the one who prays in the theologian.”

The Science of Sciences

reply to post by 547000

Again, do you know anything of church history or are you just spouting off crazy conspiracy theories?

I "know anything of church history," so I'll respond to this. Not spouting off crazy conspiracy theories.

Someone with that type of logic could just as well conclude that Christianity itself is pagan and Jesus was a rehash because of the similarities of Him and mythical figures.

There are many, many, many experts who believe just this

Have you ever wondered why we Christians do what we do for church every Sunday morning? Why do we “dress up” for church? Why does the pastor preach a sermon each week? Why do we have pews, steeples, choirs, and seminaries? This volume reveals the startling truth: most of what Christians do in present-day churches is not rooted in the New Testament, but in pagan culture and rituals developed long after the death of the apostles. Coauthors Frank Viola and George Barna support their thesis with compelling historical evidence in the first-ever book to document the full story of modern Christian church practices.

from the description of Pagan Christianity?: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices by Frank Viola (Author), George Barna (Author), c2008, BarnaBooks on www.amazon.com...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329926646&sr=1-2
I highly recommend you go to the link and read the professional critiques there on the main page. This is going to be my next read.

I am becoming confused by your posts 547000, you seem to have a hazy impression of what Protestantism is. MOST Protestant faiths DO celebrate those holidays.

If you claim the church added things to the faith, there is a problem with that. The direct successors of the apostles believed in "pagan" things like Purgatory, Devotion to Mary, Prayers for the Dead, etc. If you have the internet you can research what the early church believed. That means immediately after the apostles died the people who they taught corrupted everything. If that is indeed the case, the authority of the bible itself is in question, since it was these corrupt people who selected canon.

Correct. It was corrupted by those who wanted to use it as "law" to control the masses and gain wealth. Still is what they are doing. Very un-Christlike.

I have no clue what faith lonewolf is now exploring, except that he's been at it for about a year now and felt recently that he was failing despite his best efforts. He talks about "pagans" practicing cannibalism...WHat??!!!!
Nono. Nonono. Modern or neo-paganism is a return to the Earth-Centered practices that predated ALL forms of Christianity and gave reverence to the elementals, to the Male/Female deities and, the turns of the season.

And Episcopalians still do the weird symbolic trans-substantiation ritual....But no one to my knowledge believes it actually is anything but symbolid. Also, they use the King James bible. The only real difference is that Episcopalians pray to God and Jesus rather than to Mary and the Saints, practice birth control, and don't "excommunicate" people for divorce or other "bad behavior." They still have a crucifix on the altar, and preach from the Gospel and Epistle, and collect money, and all that good repetition of how unworthy we all are. They don't have a Pope who claims to be the spokesman for God (what an eyeroller that one is!)

So these claims of Protestantism and Paganism by both of you are false.
Saying so because I'm familiar with both.

As for your grasp of church history and your logic, sorry, but I'm lost. I don't really get what you're talking about. Can you explain it in some other way? I've read your posts on this thread several times over, and I'm just not getting your dots to connect in any way at all.

Wild times, you would have to read what the early church fathers believed, but since you disagree with Christianity, nothing will move you. If you disagree with the basic tenants of the creeds you can't really call yourself Christian. This includes resurrection of the dead as opposed to reincarnation.

Those who do claim to believe in Christianity but disbelieve in things like purgatory, prayers for the dead, or real presence will have to explain why the early church believed these things. It seems like strange double standard to agree with the Church about the new testament and then question it for the old testament.

After my experience I looked towards the Orthodox Church. It seems to be more experienced based, but after much consideration I believe the Catholic Church is correct. It's very close to the Catholic Church, and I believe that some day both churches will be one again.

I guess I should rephrase it: this thread concerns those who are neither Orthodox nor Catholics.

reply to post by 547000

Here is a quote from St. John Maximovitch that I like because it seems to artfully define the importance of orthodoxy (little 'o') without defining exactly where we draw the lines. I think what we believe is revealed by what we do in life. I doubt if God cares what we believe because he knows we are all liars.

SHORTLY AFTER THE DOCTRINE of Christ began to be propagated among the Gentiles, the followers of Christ in Antioch began to be called Christians (Acts XI:26). The word "Christian" indicated that those who bore this name belonged to Christ-belonged in the sense of devotion to Christ and his Doctrine. From Antioch the name of Christian was spread everywhere.

The followers of Christ gladly called themselves by the name of their beloved Teacher and Lord; and the enemies of Christ called His followers Christians by carrying over to them the ill-will and hatred which they breathed against Christ.

However, quite soon there appeared people who, while calling themselves Christians, were not of Christ in spirit. Of them Christ had spoken earlier: Not everyone that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven (St. Matt. VII:5). Christ prophesied also that many would pass themselves off for Christ Himself: Many shall come in my name, sayings I am Christ (Matt. XXIV:5). The Apostles in their epistles indicated that false bearers of the name of Christ had appeared already in their time: as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now there are many antichrists (I John II:19).

They indicated that those who stepped away from the doctrine of Christ should not be considered their own: They went out from us but were not of us (I John II:19)" Warning against quarrels and disagreements in minor matters (I Cor. I:10-14), at the same time the Apostles strictly commanded their disciples to shun those who do not bring the true doctrine (II John I:10). The Lord, through the Revelation given to the Apostle John the Theologian, sternly accused those who, calling themselves faithful, did not act in accordance with their name; for in such a case it would be false for them.

Of what use was it of old to call oneself a Jew, an Old Testament follower of the true faith, if one was not such in actuality? Such the Holy Scripture calls the synagogue of Satan (Apocalypse II:9).

In the same way a Christian in the strict sense is he only who confesses the true doctrine of Christ and lives in accordance with it. The designation of a Christian consists in glorifying the Heavenly Father by one's life. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven (St. Matt. V:16). But true glorification of God is possible only if one rightly believes and expresses his right belief in words and deeds. Therefore true Christianity and it alone may be named "right-glorifying" (Ortho-doxy). By the word "Orthodoxy" we confess our firm conviction that it is precisely our Faith that is the true doctrine of Christ. When we call anyone or anything Orthodox, we by this very fact indicate his or its non-counterfeit and uncorrupted Christianity, rejecting at the same time that which falsely appropriates the name of Christ.

St. John Maximovitch

What do we mean by the word Orthodox?

reply to post by 547000

Wild times, you would have to read what the early church fathers believed, but since you disagree with Christianity, nothing will move you. If you disagree with the basic tenants of the creeds you can't really call yourself Christian.

I have read what the early church fathers believed; and I don't disagree with "Christianity". I am moved plenty by the wonders of his life, his works, his words, and his teachings. I recommend you do so again, and again, as you grow older, and even then some more. A good start would be Karen Armstrong's A History of God; the 4000-year quest of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

547000, you will have to do plenty of more searching, despite your staunch position today, before you have any sort of solid grasp of these issues. I will also, and plan to but the fact is that the early Church did teach Reincarnation, and just because you don't believe in it doesn't change that. We've had this conversational tangent before. You are brand new to things religious/theological. I am not. Does this make me an expert? Certainly not. But I'm definitely an upper classman

I can, and do, call myself a Christian, and you have no right to tell me what I may or may not "call myself",(!!) I am simply not a parishioner of any pre-packaged dogma that will become "new and improved" as time crawls forward.
But thanks for your response.