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Catholic Bishops: Obama's Solution 'Is Unacceptable'

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posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 09:59 AM
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reply to post by xuenchen
 


I'll be glad when the SCOTUS throws out ObamaCare in June 2012.

The whole thing is unconstitutional !

Pelosi called it right. Lets pass ObamaCare so we can find out what's inside it!




posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by xuenchen
Trouble is,

The HC law has exemptions form some religious groups.


I don't see exemptions for GROUPS. I see exemptions for individuals, but not groups.

HealthCare Religious Exemption



RELIGIOUS CONSCIENCE EXEMPTION. – Such term shall not include any individual for any month if such individual has in effect an exemption under section 1311(d)(4)(H) of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which certifies that such individual is a member of a recognized religious sect of division thereof described in section 1402(g)(l) and an adherent of established tenets or teachings of such sect or division as described in such section.
...
In addition, the religious conscience healthcare bill exemption does not specifically exempt the members of any one particular religion from the health insurance mandatory purchase requirements.


This is my whole concern about this issue.

Rights are for individuals, not religions.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 10:16 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


I understand,

But there have been some exemptions granted for "groups".

Like some unions and I think some fast food chains (as "groups").
There is also some kind of blanket exemption in Nevada also.

Some may view the Amish exemption as a "group" exemption because it applies to all the Amish people.
(possibly the Muslims exemptions too)

And "individuals" within the Catholic "group" may be considered a "group" for legal purposes in this case.

But I don't know.


edit on Feb-11-2012 by xuenchen because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
The part where non-Catholics, non-Jews or non-Methodists work there.

By their choice. They know it's a Catholic hospital.
You don't expect a Jewish deli to serve bacon.
You don't expect a Catholic hospital to pay for abortions.
Common sense.

Can a HOSPITAL do that? Can a HOSPITAL not hire somebody because they are not of a particular religion?

Catholic hospitals don't discriminate like that.
My god you really are trying to muddy the water with false hoods. :shk:

the position of the Bishops on priests poking young boys is entirely relevant, as much as the Catholics may want to deny it... it indicates the moral bankruptcy of said Bishops.

Catholics haven't denied that. You really shouldn't lie like that.
Again ... you are off topic, full of error, and that deflection is irrelevant to the conversation.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 10:40 AM
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reply to post by xuenchen
 

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Plenty of groups, states, unions, perhaps even Congress have been exempted...pages and pages show
doing a google search

As of last spring, there were over 1,300 exemptions granted.
www.humanevents.com...

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


edit on Sat Feb 11 2012 by DontTreadOnMe because: fixed link



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 10:43 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But a hospital is not a church. Can anyone show me where a religious hospital has the same legal rights as a church?

I've tried and tried ... I don't know what else to do or what other facts to present.

The Catholic church isn't just a stained glass building where people go to pray on Sundays. It's a Church ... an organization ... that has many parts of one body ... Church hospital, Church orphanage, etc .... all of it is part of the Catholic Church because the people in the Church are called by that religion to do these things .... help the poor, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, take care of the orphan .... and so the Catholic Church goes and does these things as part of the Church.

My daughters orphanage in Bolivia .. example ... Catholic orphanage ... built and opened by a Catholic priest from Italy working in a missionary capacity ... Catholic everything all over the buildings ... funded by donations .... opened by and under the care of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic hospital in our town ... Catholic everything all over the building ... opened by and under the care of the Catholic Church. This is what I said in the other thread -

Observations on my 3 day stay in a Catholic hospital for hysterectomy and oophorectomy
and second one day stay for lumpectomy -

- 'Catholic' on the hospital and the paperwork and pretty much said everywhere.
- St. Francis statues and posters and prayers everywhere (it was St. Francis hospital).
- A crucifix in every room and in all the hall ways.
- Posters with prayers on them - usually by a Catholic saint.
- Parish priests from the different churches in the halls visiting their parishoners.
- A eucharistic minister each day visiting each room offering communion.
- A Catholic bible in each room.
- A Catholic chapel with mass said each day in the hospital.
- A Catholic priest assigned to the hospital and on call at all times.
- Catholic magazines (and a few secular ones too) on the waiting room tables.
- Bulletin boards full of information about Catholic Church potluck dinners, Catholic Church festivals, etc
- Workers saying - 'God Bless You', 'God Loves You', 'Do you want to pray together?'
- Pretty chimes on the loudspeaker in the morning with an opening day Catholic prayer.
- Pretty chimes on the loudspeaker at noon on the followed by the Angelus (a traditional Catholic prayer)
- Pretty chimes on the loudspeaker at the end of visiting hours with an evening Catholic prayer.

The hospital OOOOOOOZES Catholicism. It's Catholic and run by the Catholic Church.
I don't know how much more Catholic something can get ....



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 10:43 AM
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reply to post by DontTreadOnMe
 


Lets just exempt everyone and end this government mess.

ObamaCare stinks to high heaven.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 11:03 AM
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These exemptions you guys are talking about are not exemptions from the entire health care reform.

They are temporary exemptions for organizations that offer mini-med plans. These plans would no longer be allowed due to benefit caps, but without them many people would be without any insurance at all. So the exemptions allowed organizations to continue to offer them until 2014 when they can offer insurance through the state exchanges.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by TheCommentator

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by TheCommentator
 


Yup.
Though your recruitment drives may not have a leg to stand on!

So then you have nothing against the church of scinetology making workers sign contracts that force them to work their entire life like this women:
blogs.villagevoice.com...

There are also many other cases like hers.

Where does this dictatorship by employer over worker end?


Yes. The Church of Scientology is very rich and powerful. To work for the church you MUST sign the contract (Sea Org.). Church doctrine dictates that if a person becomes ill, they are "out ethics." In other words they have sinned and have brought the illness upon themselves. They are punished with hard labor and restricted to eat beans and rice. TRUE!

They could, therefore, argue that they should be exempt from any medical benefits.

The Church of Scientology deems sex as an aberration and discourages it among it's employees. If "you" MUST have sex then you MUST be married. Fornication is punishable by expulsion and disconnection. Children are not wanted in the "Sea Org" and married couples who have children are expelled. Abortions are encouraged.

Still think churches should get exemptions based on their doctrines?



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by Eurisko2012
Lets just exempt everyone and end this government mess.


No.

Healthcare is a vital entitlement to a People. By its own, not many can afford healthcare, not even basic ones let alone diseases, certainly not with the meagre wages one has with a spiralling never ending upward trend of medication. No human wants to be sick, but due to the environment we live in, sickness is common.

Let not a citizen says it is better to die than to be impoverished by medical bills.

Instead of the rich or super rich getting health priviledged attention, let the rich share their wealth with society, and each and every working man chip in a bit, so that none be left behind to die when illness can be treated, more so with our tech and science advances.

Every human life is precious and means something special to another, regardless his beliefs, religion, skin color, political affiliations, etc. None must be deprived in a civilised society that we seek to build up.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
These exemptions you guys are talking about are not exemptions from the entire health care reform.

They are temporary exemptions for organizations that offer mini-med plans. These plans would no longer be allowed due to benefit caps, but without them many people would be without any insurance at all. So the exemptions allowed organizations to continue to offer them until 2014 when they can offer insurance through the state exchanges.


What happens when the temporary waivers go away ?

What will the minimum wage earners have to pay for individual policies.

Those State exchanges will not necessarily be affordable.

Especially if the person can't qualify for medicaid.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 11:18 AM
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Originally posted by duhdiggitydan
When Catholic institutions, or any other religious institution, receive money from the tax payers and the government—such as universities that accept Pell grants and federally guaranteed student loads, private schools that accept vouchers, or hospitals that receive Medicare and Medicaid to continue running—then there should be no cap on what an employee can receive for health benefits, after all the employee is playing a large role in keeping the institution functioning.

Now, if being religious and adhering to mythological standards set in place 2,000+ years ago is your jazz, then by all means, ignore the option to receive birth control. However, because everyone in the nation who pays taxes are, in fact, keeping religious institutions operating or may not even subscribe to a religion in the first place, any and all forms of health coverage should be available to those who seek it out.

It blows my mind that these religious institutions (looking at you, large portion of Catholics) who've been taught by their Sky God to be kind to all and help their fellow brother/sister out can be so selfish as to deny someone who needs or wants contraception.

This issue is in no way denying anyone their religious beliefs; not even in the slightest.
edit on 11-2-2012 by duhdiggitydan because: (no reason given)


Exactly! These "churches" are huge corporations that are practicing politics from the pulpit. There are paying lobbyists, contributing to Super PACS and preaching politics to the captive audience of their congregations.

If churches want to participate in politics then their tax exempt status should be removed. The extra tax revenue could go to paying for a single payer health care system system.
edit on 11-2-2012 by windword because: .



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 11:20 AM
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Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

Originally posted by Eurisko2012
Lets just exempt everyone and end this government mess.


No.

Healthcare is a vital entitlement to a People. By its own, not many can afford healthcare, not even basic ones let alone diseases, certainly not with the meagre wages one has with a spiralling never ending upward trend of medication. No human wants to be sick, but due to the environment we live in, sickness is common.

Let not a citizen says it is better to die than to be impoverished by medical bills.

Instead of the rich or super rich getting health priviledged attention, let the rich share their wealth with society, and each and every working man chip in a bit, so that none be left behind to die when illness can be treated, more so with our tech and science advances.

Every human life is precious and means something special to another, regardless his beliefs, religion, skin color, political affiliations, etc. None must be deprived in a civilised society that we seek to build up.



Yes.

Let the private sector provide health care to America.

If you want the Public Option health care system move to Canada.

It won't work down here.

Thank God SCOTUS will throw it out. Good riddance!



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by xuenchen

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
These exemptions you guys are talking about are not exemptions from the entire health care reform.

They are temporary exemptions for organizations that offer mini-med plans. These plans would no longer be allowed due to benefit caps, but without them many people would be without any insurance at all. So the exemptions allowed organizations to continue to offer them until 2014 when they can offer insurance through the state exchanges.


What happens when the temporary waivers go away ?

What will the minimum wage earners have to pay for individual policies.

Those State exchanges will not necessarily be affordable.

Especially if the person can't qualify for medicaid.



The only people who get ObamaCare waivers are the unions and people who live

next door to Pelosi.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


As I said in the other thread, how they act does not determine their LEGAL status. I can't fill my house up with idols and bibles till it OOZES religion and claim religious exemptions. Are they a hospital or a church? They are a hospital.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Are they a hospital or a church? They are a hospital.

They are a Church hospital.


Again ... the Church is big and has many different aspects to it.
But it's still the Catholic Church. Stained glass or not.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by duhdiggitydan
When Catholic institutions, or any other religious institution, receive money from the tax payers and the government—such as universities that accept Pell grants and federally guaranteed student loads, private schools that accept vouchers, or hospitals that receive Medicare and Medicaid to continue running—then there should be no cap on what an employee can receive for health benefits, after all the employee is playing a large role in keeping the institution functioning.

Now, if being religious and adhering to mythological standards set in place 2,000+ years ago is your jazz, then by all means, ignore the option to receive birth control. However, because everyone in the nation who pays taxes are, in fact, keeping religious institutions operating or may not even subscribe to a religion in the first place, any and all forms of health coverage should be available to those who seek it out.

It blows my mind that these religious institutions (looking at you, large portion of Catholics) who've been taught by their Sky God to be kind to all and help their fellow brother/sister out can be so selfish as to deny someone who needs or wants contraception.

This issue is in no way denying anyone their religious beliefs; not even in the slightest.
edit on 11-2-2012 by duhdiggitydan because: (no reason given)


That makes no sense what so ever...

Someone explained it very plainly above.

If a group/church does not believe in something, as it is against their beliefs, religion.. It SHOULD NOT have to be forced to pay for such acts...

What if you were against crackheads... Obama says you have to pay taxes to help every single crackhead get treatment.... He, the crackhead, can bow out, but you STILL have to pay the tax.

How would you feel about throwing your money towards something that you feel is stupid, idiotic and against the very foundation of the beliefs you have?



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Are they a hospital or a church? They are a hospital.

They are a Church hospital.


Again ... the Church is big and has many different aspects to it.
But it's still the Catholic Church. Stained glass or not.


I think that the church is a different entity than the charities that they finance. They also receive federal money from tax dollars, churches do not Churches, not just Catholic invest in all kind of business, including real estate, publishing, foodstuffs, they invest in Wall Street and mutual funds.

They form corporations to support their corporations. For example the Church of Scientology bought the non-profit corporation CAN, "Cult Awareness Network," who were known for deprogramming their Sea Org members.

The Catholic church and their very vocal bishops are not the only religious institution affected by the 1st Amendment.
edit on 11-2-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by theRhenn
.
Someone explained it very plainly above.

If a group/church does not believe in something, as it is against their beliefs, religion.. It SHOULD NOT have to be forced to pay for such acts...

What if you were against crackheads... Obama says you have to pay taxes to help every single crackhead get treatment.... He, the crackhead, can bow out, but you STILL have to pay the tax.

How would you feel about throwing your money towards something that you feel is stupid, idiotic and against the very foundation of the beliefs you have?


You bring out a relevant point in the discussion.

I find you rude and uncompassionate towards others in our civilised society. Then perhaps, following your dictate, CAN I not be throwing my tax dollars to support folks like you that I absolutely detest? Can I alone make and decide where my money goes when it comes to social expenditure, discriminate as I please?

Afterall, my tax monies goes into a central pool to fund social expenditure for our society, such as education, health, infrastructure, etc. Surely you cannot claim your existance today, with knowledge, societal benefits and all, is by your own hands alone?.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 01:02 PM
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reply to post by SeekerofTruth101
 


That's called -- hiding behind victims -.

It's a common tactic of the liberals.

We must have ObamaCare to protect these victims over here.

If you don't agree with me then you lack compassion.


That trick works with some but not all Americans. Nice try.



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