Originally posted by n00bUK

This is it, shes going to be a killer forever now, there's no way around it. I strongly stand by that if this child was contacted at a young age and taken away from the environment, she wouldn't of wanted to kill somebody. You cant be born a killer, you have to be conditioned into it, knowingly or unknowingly.

I beg to differ. There ARE born killers. Perhaps not as many as one would suspect, but they exist. There really ARE monsters out there, and you can't tell which ones just by looking at them.

Circumstances, the old "nature vs. nurture" argument, cannot make something of something that is not present to begin with. It can't be manufactured without the "raw materials" as it were. Conditioning can nudge one in one direction or the other, but it will not install what is not already there. It will neither produce a sinner nor a saint.

Those are born. Circumstances only guide and nurture what is already present.

Maybe someone should start explaining to these kids a little earlier that killing people is wrong and you go to prison for a long time (unless you pay your way out of it). That way even a psychopath who has no feelings of empathy will know what will happen and that it is wrong.

Originally posted by Glass

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

It makes the whole world half blind, until someone gets the bright idea to not poke out the other guy's eye in the first place to get the ball rolling.

To use another old cliche, killing this girl makes us no better than her. Killing her now eliminates any chance of preventing a tragedy such as this in the future.

I don't want to be "better" than her. I want the world safe from her. Killing her now sure as hell prevents HER from committing any such acts in the future. Just what do you think allowing her to live will "prevent"?

Originally posted by wigit

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Life in Prison for a 15 year old?

There is nothing "just" about this. Nothing can bring the little 9 year old back to life.

If the jury doesn't think the 15 year old can be salvaged, then she needs to be put down like a rabid animal. If she can be saved, then she needs to get intense therapy and not spend her life in jail.

Personally, I'd vote for putting her down. Soon.

"Personally, I'd vote for putting her down. Soon." I'm surprised as a MODERATOR you get to put comments like this in a thread. Aren't you supposed to be on a fence somewhere?

edit on 9-2-2012 by wigit because: (no reason given)

My favorite, tired, old, illogical argument.

Becoming a Moderator didn't change my opinions in the slightest way, and nobody on ATS staff has ever asked me to change my opinion. We don't moderate in threads where we participate.

Personally, I don't see much of a need for prisons whatsoever. If someone is clearly a threat to society, then why keep them alive? If they are not a threat to society, then why put them in prison?

Big Pharma playing with our minds

Give her the death penalty. Why waste tax payer money on this scum?

Prozac takes all the good emotions away with the depression. You don's care and are indifferent to people's feeling as you are to your own feelings. All you can really feel on this drug is anger and to a lesser extent fear. when it reaches a threashold you will have a violent angry outburst. She acted on repressed angry impulses and found she had the power to kill in the process. It was the empowerment she liked, and at that moment, drugged or not her humanity died. Like an animal she should be put down in a humane way, preferably after study.

An alternate explanation is she was demon posessed.

FWIW long term imprisonment is eugenics in disguise anyway.

Prozac, of course. Not the first murder on this drug and probably not the last. Educate yourself on this before you judge this girls behaviour. Prozac is known for causing suicidal and murderous thoughts. It dumbs down your emotions. That's why it's used as an antidepressant.

Wait so the parents aren't going to get any form of punishment at all what so ever? I thought that anything a child does (under the age of 18) is responsible by the parent. For example, if a kid threw a baseball and it broke a neighbor's windows, the parents have to pay right?

Originally posted by n00bUK

Have you got children?

Yes.

When my daughter was born i witnessed the most purest soul i could ever imagine,

Unfortunately, I can't read souls. I can only go by actions.

I took it upon my self to raise my daughter better than i was raised. I was raised in a loving home, with a perfect mother who always put us first. My farther was away but i felt i didnt need him - only now as an adult do i see that i needed him more than i ever thought, the bond with your farther is just as important as the one with your mother - both parents correct your life path and aim you in the right direction, with my farther missing i picked up the man of the house trait - which built my attitude that i didnt need anybody, one man solider so to speak - King Alpha, as well as many other things that wouldn't of been there if my farther was around and responsible. Anyway, im ranting again. . . .

From your previous post on your brush with depravity in the form of robberies and such, I would have expected a depraved home if nurture were to blame for actions. Given this back ground, and comparing it to my own, I should be out mass murdering folks just for fun right now, as we speak, instead of typing on the internet.

My dear old dad was a drunk. Used to try to call me out into the street to fight. I was raised dirt-poor, and saw some times 4 days at a stretch without eating. My house had holes in the exterior walls that the wind blew through, and I've been awakened in the winter time by snow falling through the roof into my face, while a glass of water in my room froze solid.

Somehow, through all that, I managed NOT to kill kids for fun, rape any one, rob any one, or any of that.

Kudos on providing a better life for your daughter - that is, after all, a parent's job. We give them a better start than we had, and humanity as a whole moves forward rather than regressing. That's the theory, anyhow. I tend to apply it on more of a case by case basis than as a blanket over all humanity.

My point is that given the perfect environment -- Perfect been both mother and father there, both caring, loving to you and each other. No life stress of not been able to pay bills, good education, good friends, positive people around you, just an all round good environment. . Given the above environment, how could one be born, and then grow up to be evil?

Ask the Menendez brothers. they may have some insight into that.

all the conditioning of that child for 'it' to be raised as a caring , loving person - just to be flushed down the drain because 'it' was born that way? I'm sorry but i cant understand this logic. Every human being is born into this world knowing nothing, all they recognize is their parents voices and your saying from this, they are some how brought into this world evil?

Logic? Since when is evil logical? Yes, there are those who are just born evil. It's not a matter of logic, it just is. Evil is not a matter of logic, it's not a matter of what one "knows", or what they are born knowing - or not knowing. it seems to me to be more a matter of what lies at their core. The rest is only window dressing, what they show to the outside world. Learning may have a part in that - people can learn to hide the evil, some more successfully than others. the shallow grave in this case was apparently insufficiently deep to hide the evil.

I'll stick by what i said - You have to be conditioned into an evil person. Lets look at some infamous murders that was committed by children:

< truncated for brevity >

These are two infamous murders committed by children, to children - Knowing both of these children's backgrounds, we can see that they were not raised in the ideal home - If these murderers would of been taken away, 2-3year prior to these killings, into a loving, caring home- would they of still killed? Would you be starting another conditioning of the child, with a much more positive outlook on life, rather than the path they were on?

I feel that the proof is in the pudding so to speak, child killers are very rare, and in most cases - the child who committed the crime was also a victim of abuse - great abuse, abuse which would make any innocent soul have a twisted grasp of reality - even you, or me.

If that correlation were valid, we should have a great many more childood killers than we see. Most people who undergo those sorts of childhoods turn out relativley safe - at least they don't succumb to the point of becoming murderers. I postulate that is a function of nature, rather than nurture. Some are born evil, and act on that, others are not. "Teasing by classmates" is an excuse, not a reason. Lots of people are teased by classmates - why do they not go on killing rampages?

Because of their core natures, that's why.

My post wasnt an attack on you or anything of the sort, i just wanted to see what you had to say, and you'v delivered what you had to say very good, which made me question what i currently think

I understand all your post buddy, I just find it hard to grasp that children are born into this world with underlying evil tendencies that can not be flushed out given any good circumstances. You make a good point about us having more killers if my said circumstances were the case for their behavior.

As for your up bringing, maybe you were around loving people? like i was (family wise) and that grounded you to know the actual consequences of doing such actions (abuse/murder etc)...I dont know, but i just cant grasp that their born into this world evil. Thanks for replying anyway buddy

When my mum was younger, her peer at school killed a young boy "just to see what would happen to his eyes" (ie: the life left his eyes)

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