Missouri teen girl gets 'life' for killing 9yr girl to 'find out what it felt like'...

reply to post by Xcathdra


Even at 18 I don't believe in Life Sentences of imprisonment. For that matter, I don't believe in 25 to Life sentences. What can be reformed in 25 years that can't be reformed in 5?

In my opinion, someone is either worth reforming, and capable of reforming, or they are not. If they are capable and worth it, then we should devote resources to that end. If they are not, then we should put them down quickly.

Long imprisonments are just punitive and torturous and expensive, and I don't see the point.

If we saved all the money from long imprisonments and dedicated it to reform, we might actually save a few souls and fix our Recidivism rate. Do away with "victimless" crimes like possession of illicit drugs, do away with long-term prison sentences, do away with mandatory sentencing and 3-strike rules, and devote all those resources to the areas of counseling and reform, and expediting the appeals process and expediting executions where appropriate.

reply to post by 4hero


A colloquialism, probably. "Them" is not always plural - in some colloquial usage, it refers to a singular third party in the obviative sense.

That's just that one case, though - the diary entry. She had dug two graves previously, so her intent was probably for more than one kill, but no mention is made of a body in the other grave.

More concerning to me is her social media braggadaccio of "killing people" for a hobby.

"People". Hobby. Recurrent activity.

Plural.

Originally posted by n00bUK

This is it, shes going to be a killer forever now, there's no way around it. I strongly stand by that if this child was contacted at a young age and taken away from the environment, she wouldn't of wanted to kill somebody. You cant be born a killer, you have to be conditioned into it, knowingly or unknowingly.

I beg to differ. There ARE born killers. Perhaps not as many as one would suspect, but they exist. There really ARE monsters out there, and you can't tell which ones just by looking at them.

Circumstances, the old "nature vs. nurture" argument, cannot make something of something that is not present to begin with. It can't be manufactured without the "raw materials" as it were. Conditioning can nudge one in one direction or the other, but it will not install what is not already there. It will neither produce a sinner nor a saint.

Those are born. Circumstances only guide and nurture what is already present.

Maybe someone should start explaining to these kids a little earlier that killing people is wrong and you go to prison for a long time (unless you pay your way out of it). That way even a psychopath who has no feelings of empathy will know what will happen and that it is wrong.

Originally posted by Glass

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

It makes the whole world half blind, until someone gets the bright idea to not poke out the other guy's eye in the first place to get the ball rolling.

To use another old cliche, killing this girl makes us no better than her. Killing her now eliminates any chance of preventing a tragedy such as this in the future.

I don't want to be "better" than her. I want the world safe from her. Killing her now sure as hell prevents HER from committing any such acts in the future. Just what do you think allowing her to live will "prevent"?

Originally posted by wigit

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Life in Prison for a 15 year old?

There is nothing "just" about this. Nothing can bring the little 9 year old back to life.

If the jury doesn't think the 15 year old can be salvaged, then she needs to be put down like a rabid animal. If she can be saved, then she needs to get intense therapy and not spend her life in jail.

Personally, I'd vote for putting her down. Soon.

"Personally, I'd vote for putting her down. Soon." I'm surprised as a MODERATOR you get to put comments like this in a thread. Aren't you supposed to be on a fence somewhere?

edit on 9-2-2012 by wigit because: (no reason given)

My favorite, tired, old, illogical argument.

Becoming a Moderator didn't change my opinions in the slightest way, and nobody on ATS staff has ever asked me to change my opinion. We don't moderate in threads where we participate.

Personally, I don't see much of a need for prisons whatsoever. If someone is clearly a threat to society, then why keep them alive? If they are not a threat to society, then why put them in prison?

Big Pharma playing with our minds

Give her the death penalty. Why waste tax payer money on this scum?

Prozac takes all the good emotions away with the depression. You don's care and are indifferent to people's feeling as you are to your own feelings. All you can really feel on this drug is anger and to a lesser extent fear. when it reaches a threashold you will have a violent angry outburst. She acted on repressed angry impulses and found she had the power to kill in the process. It was the empowerment she liked, and at that moment, drugged or not her humanity died. Like an animal she should be put down in a humane way, preferably after study.

An alternate explanation is she was demon posessed.

FWIW long term imprisonment is eugenics in disguise anyway.

Prozac, of course. Not the first murder on this drug and probably not the last. Educate yourself on this before you judge this girls behaviour. Prozac is known for causing suicidal and murderous thoughts. It dumbs down your emotions. That's why it's used as an antidepressant.

Originally posted by Neopan100
reply to post by randomname

 

agreed...Someone does something to my children their sentence is death...

But then by your own standards, after you have killed them, their parents are entitled to kill you, then your parents are entitled to kill them, then their grandparents ar entitled to kill them.......untill there is no-one left.

Killing is killing, it is not acceptable, especially on a tit for tat basis.

I doubt that Prozac had any blame for this, the lawyers job is to use any excuse to get a guilty person off, they just pick the most extreme thing and blame that, people who have no barrier stopping them from killing, will eventually kill, they have no fear of killing, only a fear of getting caught.

Originally posted by nenothtu


I beg to differ. There ARE born killers. Perhaps not as many as one would suspect, but they exist. There really ARE monsters out there, and you can't tell which ones just by looking at them.

Circumstances, the old "nature vs. nurture" argument, cannot make something of something that is not present to begin with. It can't be manufactured without the "raw materials" as it were. Conditioning can nudge one in one direction or the other, but it will not install what is not already there. It will neither produce a sinner nor a saint.

Those are born. Circumstances only guide and nurture what is already present.

Have you got children? When my daughter was born i witnessed the most purest soul i could ever imagine, I looked at her and i promised that i will make sure she grows up to be like her mummy & from that day on, I took it upon my self to raise my daughter better than i was raised. I was raised in a loving home, with a perfect mother who always put us first. My farther was away but i felt i didnt need him - only now as an adult do i see that i needed him more than i ever thought, the bond with your farther is just as important as the one with your mother - both parents correct your life path and aim you in the right direction, with my farther missing i picked up the man of the house trait - which built my attitude that i didnt need anybody, one man solider so to speak - King Alpha, as well as many other things that wouldn't of been there if my farther was around and responsible. Anyway, im ranting again. . . .

My point is that given the perfect environment -- Perfect been both mother and father there, both caring, loving to you and each other. No life stress of not been able to pay bills, good education, good friends, positive people around you, just an all round good environment. . Given the above environment, how could one be born, and then grow up to be evil? all the conditioning of that child for 'it' to be raised as a caring , loving person - just to be flushed down the drain because 'it' was born that way? I'm sorry but i cant understand this logic. Every human being is born into this world knowing nothing, all they recognize is their parents voices and your saying from this, they are some how brought into this world evil?

I'll stick by what i said - You have to be conditioned into an evil person. Lets look at some infamous murders that was committed by children:

Mary Bell

"Are you looking for your Brian?" asked Mary Bell. Brian’s sister, Pat, was worried about the missing toddler, who should have been home by now. A small, three-year-old boy Brian was found covered with grass and purple weeds. He had been strangled. Nearby, a pair of broken scissors lay in the grass. There were puncture marks on his thighs, and his genitals had been partially skinned. Clumps of his hair were cut away. The wounds were bizarre:"There was a terrible playfulness about it, a terrible gentleness if you like, and somehow the playfulness of it made it more, rather than less, terrifying,"

Link

Mary's childhood has been described as traumatic. It is claimed that her mother tried to kill her on multiple attempts via drug overdose and may have used her daughter in her own work as a prostitute. Mary was known to torture animals, fight and break into her school.

Eric Smith

Smith attracted Robie to a remote location in a park. There Smith strangled Robie, dropped a pair of large rocks on the boy’s head, undressed his body, and sodomized him with a tree limb. The cause of death was determined to be blunt trauma to the head with contributing asphyxia

Eric was reportedly teased by classmates for his appearance, was a loner and had been diagnosed by a defense psychiatrist with intermittent explosive disorder, a mental disorder causing individuals to act out violently and unpredictably.

These are two infamous murders committed by children, to children - Knowing both of these children's backgrounds, we can see that they were not raised in the ideal home - If these murderers would of been taken away, 2-3year prior to these killings, into a loving, caring home- would they of still killed? Would you be starting another conditioning of the child, with a much more positive outlook on life, rather than the path they were on?

I feel that the proof is in the pudding so to speak, child killers are very rare, and in most cases - the child who committed the crime was also a victim of abuse - great abuse, abuse which would make any innocent soul have a twisted grasp of reality - even you, or me.

To end my rant off, id like to bring our attention to a case in Norway

Continued

Wait so the parents aren't going to get any form of punishment at all what so ever? I thought that anything a child does (under the age of 18) is responsible by the parent. For example, if a kid threw a baseball and it broke a neighbor's windows, the parents have to pay right?

The case in Norway On 15th October 1994 Silje Raedergard was playing with friends on a local football field. She had played with the two boys many times, but this time the game turned rough. Whilst playing snow castles, the two boys became aggressive. They stripped Raedergard, stoned her and when she fell unconscious they panicked and ran, leaving her to die in the snow. The news of Raedergard’s death shocked the small town. With a population of 135,000, the city of Trondheim had only experienced two murders in the six years prior to her death. However instead of expressing anger and revenge, the local community felt grief and a level of responsibility.

Link

Are we, as a nation responsible for the actions of these mislead youth?

When we see this mistreatment of children, do we report it to the right people? Are these people doing enough to stop another murder of a child, by a child? Or is our current system completely flawed, as well as many of our attitudes towards these children who commit such crimes?

Originally posted by n00bUK

Have you got children?

Yes.

When my daughter was born i witnessed the most purest soul i could ever imagine,

Unfortunately, I can't read souls. I can only go by actions.

I took it upon my self to raise my daughter better than i was raised. I was raised in a loving home, with a perfect mother who always put us first. My farther was away but i felt i didnt need him - only now as an adult do i see that i needed him more than i ever thought, the bond with your farther is just as important as the one with your mother - both parents correct your life path and aim you in the right direction, with my farther missing i picked up the man of the house trait - which built my attitude that i didnt need anybody, one man solider so to speak - King Alpha, as well as many other things that wouldn't of been there if my farther was around and responsible. Anyway, im ranting again. . . .

From your previous post on your brush with depravity in the form of robberies and such, I would have expected a depraved home if nurture were to blame for actions. Given this back ground, and comparing it to my own, I should be out mass murdering folks just for fun right now, as we speak, instead of typing on the internet.

My dear old dad was a drunk. Used to try to call me out into the street to fight. I was raised dirt-poor, and saw some times 4 days at a stretch without eating. My house had holes in the exterior walls that the wind blew through, and I've been awakened in the winter time by snow falling through the roof into my face, while a glass of water in my room froze solid.

Somehow, through all that, I managed NOT to kill kids for fun, rape any one, rob any one, or any of that.

Kudos on providing a better life for your daughter - that is, after all, a parent's job. We give them a better start than we had, and humanity as a whole moves forward rather than regressing. That's the theory, anyhow. I tend to apply it on more of a case by case basis than as a blanket over all humanity.

My point is that given the perfect environment -- Perfect been both mother and father there, both caring, loving to you and each other. No life stress of not been able to pay bills, good education, good friends, positive people around you, just an all round good environment. . Given the above environment, how could one be born, and then grow up to be evil?

Ask the Menendez brothers. they may have some insight into that.

all the conditioning of that child for 'it' to be raised as a caring , loving person - just to be flushed down the drain because 'it' was born that way? I'm sorry but i cant understand this logic. Every human being is born into this world knowing nothing, all they recognize is their parents voices and your saying from this, they are some how brought into this world evil?

Logic? Since when is evil logical? Yes, there are those who are just born evil. It's not a matter of logic, it just is. Evil is not a matter of logic, it's not a matter of what one "knows", or what they are born knowing - or not knowing. it seems to me to be more a matter of what lies at their core. The rest is only window dressing, what they show to the outside world. Learning may have a part in that - people can learn to hide the evil, some more successfully than others. the shallow grave in this case was apparently insufficiently deep to hide the evil.

I'll stick by what i said - You have to be conditioned into an evil person. Lets look at some infamous murders that was committed by children:

< truncated for brevity >

These are two infamous murders committed by children, to children - Knowing both of these children's backgrounds, we can see that they were not raised in the ideal home - If these murderers would of been taken away, 2-3year prior to these killings, into a loving, caring home- would they of still killed? Would you be starting another conditioning of the child, with a much more positive outlook on life, rather than the path they were on?

I feel that the proof is in the pudding so to speak, child killers are very rare, and in most cases - the child who committed the crime was also a victim of abuse - great abuse, abuse which would make any innocent soul have a twisted grasp of reality - even you, or me.

If that correlation were valid, we should have a great many more childood killers than we see. Most people who undergo those sorts of childhoods turn out relativley safe - at least they don't succumb to the point of becoming murderers. I postulate that is a function of nature, rather than nurture. Some are born evil, and act on that, others are not. "Teasing by classmates" is an excuse, not a reason. Lots of people are teased by classmates - why do they not go on killing rampages?

Because of their core natures, that's why.

My post wasnt an attack on you or anything of the sort, i just wanted to see what you had to say, and you'v delivered what you had to say very good, which made me question what i currently think

I understand all your post buddy, I just find it hard to grasp that children are born into this world with underlying evil tendencies that can not be flushed out given any good circumstances. You make a good point about us having more killers if my said circumstances were the case for their behavior.

As for your up bringing, maybe you were around loving people? like i was (family wise) and that grounded you to know the actual consequences of doing such actions (abuse/murder etc)...I dont know, but i just cant grasp that their born into this world evil. Thanks for replying anyway buddy

When my mum was younger, her peer at school killed a young boy "just to see what would happen to his eyes" (ie: the life left his eyes)

Originally posted by n00bUK

The case in Norway On 15th October 1994 Silje Raedergard was playing with friends on a local football field. She had played with the two boys many times, but this time the game turned rough. Whilst playing snow castles, the two boys became aggressive. They stripped Raedergard, stoned her and when she fell unconscious they panicked and ran, leaving her to die in the snow. The news of Raedergard’s death shocked the small town. With a population of 135,000, the city of Trondheim had only experienced two murders in the six years prior to her death. However instead of expressing anger and revenge, the local community felt grief and a level of responsibility.

Link

Are we, as a nation responsible for the actions of these mislead youth?

My initial reaction to that question is a firm "no!" Upon further reflection, however, society likely has a part to play in it in some cases, but it's not the cause or to be blamed. the permissiveness rampant in modern society seems to breed conscienceless sociopaths. How they ACT on that is entirely on them, however.

Also, there is the question of age, and the "knowledge right or wrong" rule. The boys in this story were each 6 years old, the victim 5. The argument could be made that they were not old enough to realize the potential consequences of their actions. In the case the thread is based upon, the killer was 15 at the time of the murder, certainly old enough to know what happens when a throat is cut. Indeed, that end result was WHY she killed - to find out "what it feels like". she knew the results of her action would be death.

When we see this mistreatment of children, do we report it to the right people? Are these people doing enough to stop another murder of a child, by a child? Or is our current system completely flawed, as well as many of our attitudes towards these children who commit such crimes?

I recall the James Bulger case when it happened, but I can't recall any allegations of abuse being visited on the killers. that could well be faulty recollection on my part. There was no mention of abuse in the Norway case - at least not in that report. If abuse was present, why are the parents not in jail for it?

When i see mistreatment, I don't report it to anyone - I handle it, precisely because our current system is flawed. I don't know how it is in the UK, but here "Child Services" is near to useless, at least locally to me, and where I grew up as well. I don't know about the country as a whole. I know of one case in Henry County Virginia where children were seized (by CPS, no less) in trumped up charges and sold (by CPS again) for 20k each to others, completely destroying a family, and separating the siblings.

Hey, the state made 40 grand on the deal though!

Seriously, I wouldn't turn over a case of genuine abuse to the authorities. I handle it. At least I won't decimate the family or sell off the children.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by silo13

 

I wouldn't doubt that Prozac made it ... easier.. for this girl to kill a child. There is a lot of evidence of antidepressents causing normal people to do abnormal things. Regardless however.. she killed a little girl for the sake of seeing what it'd feel like. That'd F'd up on so many levels. I'd say she is certainly insane (in fact, I'm astonished her defense didn't go the insanity route??) but I for one don't view insanity, drug induced or otherwise, to be a special get out of jail free card. Take a life, serve for life.

I second...what you have said...(all of the above). There is an old saying..."you do the crime - you do the time".

No matter what the circumstances...a person took another persons life...planned the murder ahead of time...and enjoyed murdering. The murderer got caught...and is being locked away in prison for life as a result of their own actions.

Inside of prison the murderer can still have a life. She can still have friends...work...go to school...attend religious services...get therapy etc.

The 9 year old girl she murdered...can't do any of that.