Who is really behind the birthers and what is their real motive?

I recently posted a thread which outlined the lies of the birthers. I will quickly summarize that here before I start.

The birther movement has two main threads:

- Obama was born in the US but is not a natural born citizen
- Obama was not born in the US

An interesting thing about both of these conspiracies is that the "proof" and "evidence" presented against Obama is almost all completely fraudulent.

What do I mean?

Well, in many cases, with a conspiracy, there's some evidence, say a video of a UFO, and while many may think it's real or a hoax most agree that, well their 'belief' is essentially just an opinion.

That is NOT the case with the birther evidence.

A good case in point, which I detailed in my other thread is the birther claim (which is the crux of many birther theories), that Obama has a "recycled" Social Security number from a dead guy born in 1890. And that the number itself was registered to a man in CT, based on it's first three digits.

The shocking thing about that "evidence" is not just that it's COMPLETELY untrue, but that the birthers didn't ACCIDENTALLY believe that, there's no confusion here, the willfully generated that evidence out of thin air.

Another example, and one that relates the whole NBC claim, is that certain legal cases say that the US government believes that both of your parents need to be American for you to be a NBC. The interesting thing is that the websites that push these cases, all birther sites of course, edit the text of these ruling, because... wait for it... the ACTUAL text contradicts their positions.

So wait, am I claiming that someone somewhere generated/is generating false "evidence" and is attempting to ruin a sitting US President, and that they know this evidence is false? Yes!

As I have said in many a thread, I am not an Obama supporter (only support him in absence of another decent candidate), but that's not the issue, my, or your, political beliefs. The issue is that someone, for some reason, who knows they are lying, is dumping money and effort into a campaign which wants to destabilize the US government, starting from the top down.

Who?

Why?

A short list:

1. Political opponents
2. Foreign operatives
3. Crazy people
4. Business interests
5. Some combination of the above

and I guess, though I doubt it, I should add

6. Hardcore racists

Who has the most to gain? Can all of this really be the work of mentally ill people?

Any thoughts?

Also, are we all so blinded by our ideologies that we'd let an outside force destroy a President, because it suited our political beliefs? I.E, If Pakistan had killed Bush, or even managed to bring down his Presidency, would you all be cool with that?

I hope I wouldn't have been. You?

The other interesting thing is Orly Taitz.

She FREQUENTLY accuses her dertactors of being Muslim extremists, traitors and terrorists. She claims any one that points out her lies are working for the government... is she REALLY that crazy? Is someone pulling HER strings? Who?

Umm.. Just a note here, but that "untrue" evidence found a compelling hearing and audience in open court less than a week ago in Georgia. I'll admit, I've never really been sold on the theory about Obama and whether he's flat out not American by birth, or just problematic under the Constitutional requirements for the Presidency in particular. I know two things though....and they are hard to argue.

1. Obama has spent the better part of 4 years obstructing and outright fighting every attempt to produce the same document any of us would be required to produce for a Drivers License, let alone a job or security clearance.

2. Obama and his team have spent MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of dollars since the first attempts to force him to produce this document.

Now I don't know about everyone else...but money talks in my mind. Money here says SOMETHING is hidden there and it means a heck of a lot to our President to KEEP it hidden at almost any cost. Is it his citizenship? Are there other things on this document that have NOTHING to do with his citizenship at all? Perhaps dear 'ol Dad wasn't really Dad afterall and THAT is what our President is willing to go to such absurd lengths to hide. Perhaps it's just the different names this man has used..and still denys. *THAT* part was pretty well established in court...for those who have even bothered to see what actually happened there.

Whatever the case, it really doesn't matter. The fact is, it *IS* now in court and that Evidence HAS been presented for the record and under the United States laws and rules of Evidence for said courts. Now it's in Obama's hands, to my thinking. He's the President, he isn't a God. He isn't above the law...and we'll just see if the Judicial Branch has ANY authority over the Executive one for wrong doing..because he's pushed it well past the point of forcing the courts. By not even bothering to send a representative to the Georgia court, he's really forced the issue now.

Lets see how it plays out when the President of the United States essentially tells a legitimate and duly authorized court that he doesn't 'FEEL LIKE' complying with it. Gee... I wish the rest of us could just thumb our nose at a Judge....and I want to see if he gets away with it in the long term. Even Bill Clinton *HAD* to eventually submit to formal proceedings in a legitimate case...so will Obama, in all liklihood. If not now...then he has to leave office eventually and he isn't the President anymore. :

The birthers have nothing to prove. Obama is the one on the hot seat. Obama tried to prove his birth by producing a BC which contained a typo in the stamp among other things. If he would have just stuck with the colb it would be one thing but by releasing the bc he contradicted his own supporters who claimed for almost three years that the colb was good enough and anyone who wanted further proof was racist. So either you can believe there is an Orlyian conspiracy (masterminded by Orly Taitz) or maybe, just maybe the conspiracy is originating from the guy holding the most powerful position in the country and wants to hold onto that position.

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious


Some really good questions; I've often wondered about this myself.

Add to it the frenzy over Obama's birth certificate... they claimed within hours to have proven it a forgery "because a scanned document cannot have layers". Hokum. (I do software for a living, and have some knowledge of what can be done.)

I *think*, with no hard evidence to back it up, that the driving force behind the birthers is the GOP... they don't care about anything but being in power to further enrich themselves (unfortunately, the GOP is even worse at actually governing than are the Democrats), and Obama is a Democrat.

I think his race is actually to the GOP more of a convenience than a real concern. They can use the latent racism in the US (and if someone thinks there's no such animal, wake up) and just feed it a teaser... "Obama is a foreigner!" then let the real whackos like Taitz take it from there, from one totally unsubstantiated speculation.

Then, whatever damage is done to Obama by this tripe, the GOP as an entity can claim their hands are clean... THEY never pursue this nonsense, it's all done by "somebody else". Interestingly, when a GOP mainliner is explicitly questioned about Obama's citizenship, they always seem to say "I have no reason to think he's not" or some such... thereby subtly feeding the birther movement.

So the GOP gets this undercurrent of churn about Obama, and their hands are clean - so they think - and it doesn't cost them anything. And it might create some benefit... many of the shall we say more weak minded citizens in the country might start to believe it and vote accordingly.

It's all part of the total tapestry of complete nonsense that has been claimed about Obama. Having investigated many of these "claims" over the past few years, I have found virtually ALL of them to be total junk.

And the GOP / Birther movement has actually done themselves a dis-service, having gone so far off the deep end. By now, whenever I hear yet another wild "Obama's a xxx" claim, I immediately dismiss it as hogwash. On very rare occasions, sometimes it transpires that there is some grain of truth or relevance in the matter, but that is very rare. Mostly, they are complete garbage claims.

Note: The claims I'm talking about here are the "Obama's a Muslim, or foreigner, or gay or socialist or etc" claims. There are plenty of things he's doing wrong - support for Patriot Act, TSA, etc.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


A few things:

Obama's team seems to treat the whole thing as a political attack and have, since day one, fought it with heaps of money, like any political attack.

The compelling hearing was in fact a total sham. If you go back through those two "Georgia threads" you'll see that there was no interest on the part of the judge in the actual hearings. The main thing that happened was the Georgia DNC's lawyers screwed the pooch when it came to quashing the subpoenas, (which only existed because Taitz printed as form off the internet, btw.).

That case will be summarily thrown out because the court will accept that Taitz was, again, abusing the justice system (remember she's been fined for that already). In fact, Taitz, who got a law degree from an internet only law school, has so far LOST 20K as a solicitor and only ever been in court in relation to birther stuff.

btw: there's no need to out untrue in quotes. If you want to I can show you exactly how much of the information is a lie. Try figuring out where the year 1890 came from and THEN see if you still wanna use your quotes.

As for "hiding" things. That's a fallacious argument. You assume that because he didn't release something when you thought he should he had something to hide. Unfortunately that's not logical. Many President's don't release documents for years, decades after they're in office. That's up to them. You WOULD think that having the Hawaii state government telling you that he was born in Hawaii would be good enough. In fact, if you think the Hawaiian gvt and the US Federal government is conspiring to allow an illegal presidency you better have MUCH better evidence than, "a President didn't want to release some documents which I think is suspicious".

Compare that to the ACTUAL evidence that Taitz has repeatedly and knowingly generated lies out of thin air...

Sure you wanna go with Tatiz?

Finally, you completely misunderstand what happened in Georgia.

The plaintiff was the Georgia DNC, not Obama. The lawyer representing Obama was in fact the general council of the Georgia DNC. Taitz named Obama, but she legally had no right to. The DNC puts the candidate on the ballot in Georgia. So basically Obama not only wasn't REALLY the defendant, but no one, and I mean no one with any sense, thought a sitting President was gonna go represent himself on behalf of the party. That's crazy talk.

reply to post by filosophia


Right, so you tell me then, why are the birthers lying so much?

Why would you trust a bunch of liars?

People that have illegally obtained records, then lied about what they say, in fact fill up blogs with lies about what's in those records?

No mistakes, but lies.

The same document that they got the 1890 number from also says, plain as day, that Obama's SSN it didn't belong to a dead person (and therefore wasn't recycled) and that it was issued to someone in HI and that that person was born in 1961. The SSA says the numbers themselves don't mean where they were issued.

And yet... the birthers, who KNOW THIS, repeatedly lie about it.

Why?

FINALLY - There's no typo in the stamp. That's just crazy talk.

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious


1. Obama's alleged birth certificate has already been proven beyond a doubt it's a forgery.

2. Although most Americans are still of the assumption Obama Snr, a Kenyan, is his biological father. I do not believe this man is and Obama's real biological father probably is an American citizen. Obama clearly shows absolitely no resemblence to this Obama Snr in any shape or form.

3. I even have misgivings as to who Obama's biological mother is at this point.

4. Obama's original birth certificate/records, schooling and university records have been SEALED.

Until Obama can clear up all of the above, every American has every right to question Obama and his past.

Who is really behind the birthers and what is their real motive?

OP: You suppose that there is a complete lack of honesty and not even a shred of genuine concern in those so-called 'birthers'. But the same thing is heaped upon those so gallantly tagged as 'truthers', too.

I realize this will probably not be received to well by those who choose NOT to consider the possibilities forwarded by either of these anti-mainstream groupings.

Yes, that last sentence supposes that you and others purposely choose to avoid the merits of the subject that others suggest. And no, that's not the right thing to do either, but... in politics, all is fair, especially turnabout.

See what I mean?

reply to post by bluemirage5


1. It absolutely has not. The only people that think that are people that WANT to think that. It's not just the form either, it's the Hawaiian government which stands behind it.
2. Your crazy beliefs are of no import in this discussion.
3. ditto
4. No true. His Long Form Cert can not legally be released.

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious

Well, before we get into any real discussion about how the Georgia court hearing and evidence entered is or isn't valid...or what was or wasn't said... We are going by the same data, correct? That is to say, you have taken the time to read the transcripts for literal word for word testimony and evidence presented, right?

I'd hate to pursue a serious discussion of what has happened in official proceedings if this is, like so many others, a debate based on what media reported or what someone said happened. The *ACTUAL* evidence presented is actually impossible to ignore. Debunk? Hey, I'd LOVE to hear it debunked...and it must *ALL* be debunked, or we're just splitting hairs on which basis he's got serious problems, not whether he does or not. If even one point of evidence in Georgia can he held and proven as factual, we have a Constitutional crisis that will have even the most patient person fighting a migraine by the time it's all over.

Oh... In case you haven't taken the hour or so it'll take to read and taken in the transcripts, here is a great start on the official case material:

Transcript 1

Transcript 2

Transcript 3

Now there are roughly 90 pages there..and it gets into some complexity where the expert testimony is taken, but it's well worth the read. Funny...but I've discussed this with a number of people since it happened, including my Political Science instructor at college. Everyone has an opinion it seems..but if you have read the actual transcripts, you'll be the first that has and still just dismisses the whole issue out of hand. It MAY turn out to be baseless...but it sure can't be IGNORED. Lack of basis will need to be shown in the face of some pretty solid questions now.

You cannot argue with Birthers...they are simply idiots...there is no nice way to put it.

I mean they continue to spout lies after lies and expect everybody to believe it without actually looking into it. For instance...millions upon millions is spent by Obama to hide his records is an outright lie and is always used by these fools when debating with them.

You can continue to waste your breath trying to talk to this people but I would suggest not,,,you will get nowhere and just get frustrated.

When you point out a lie...they ignore it and move on to the next lie.

Despite the obvious facts..that if there was anything to this...the GOP would use it and that the proper authorities that this matters to, would have done a thorough search into his background would have found this out, they continue to fight this moronic fight led by the queen of insanity Orly Ortiz

The fact no other president has ever provided a birth certificate to prove they are American totally does not matter to them.

They also believe that a Birth document provided by the president and shown on a website is fake...yet they constantly use documents provided on websites to prove their case...and these are, in their minds, fact...with no question on whether or not they fake or real. Guess what they are fake...but do they care....NO.


Obama Birthers Latch On To Forgery

Oh yes...an actual expert chimed in on Obama's birth certificate..not a youtube one...

Jean-Claude Tremblay, a leading software trainer and Adobe-certified expert, who has years of experience working with and teaching Adobe Illustrator

Expert: No Doubt Obama's Birth Certificate Is Legit

We knew if the certificate was produced they would not be satisfied...and would scream fake...because nothing would satisfy them.

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious


I have talked with many birthers over the years... And these are my thoughts and opinions about the issue and the people behind it.

1. I think there is probably a small percentage of birthers (5%) who really are concerned about Obama's nationality and citizenship. A suspicion was planted in their heads and they are questioning it... There's nothing in place (that WE know about) to verify a candidate's citizenship by an objective party. And they'd like to see something in place. So would I. Many of these people were convinced when Obama posted his long form. But not all...

2. But for another sect of birther (60%), they just want the man out and don't care how it happens. This is revealed in birther threads when, after all the evidence is debunked, they change the subject to "Well, what about ObamaCare"?? "What about the Social Security numbers"?? I mean, they go off on other things they don't like about him or other rumors, to justify the fact that they're going after his citizenship... with NO evidence. That makes it pretty obvious to me that at least SOME of them don't really believe what they spout (that Obama is not a natural-born citizen), they just want him out.

3. Finally, there are those (35%) whose motivation is Obama's race, name and the fact that he's "different" and they're uncomfortable because of that. Fear and ignorance drive these people. They are the ones the GOP is appealing to when they make these veiled racist statements. (Gingrich comes to mind with his food stamps comments)

I think groups 2&3 have some cross-over in motivation and beliefs.

This whole discrediting campaign is just a convenient bandwagon on which to jump for those who don't like Obama for one reason or another. And even if proof positive were laid at their feet, 95% of them wouldn't change their minds. They have their list of (debunked and ridiculously insane) claims that they pull out whenever they can in hopes of convincing the stupid and naive to join their ranks.

Who started this whole thing? I don't know, but I suspect someone in GOP. This kind of tactic is their trademark. Bush went after Dukakis with the Willie Horton Ad and Republican's have been doing it ever since. Bush went after McCain about his "black daughter"... It's what they do... appeal to the racist bone (and the FEAR) that exists in most Americans, even if they aren't aware of it. And it works. Because most racist people don't realize they're racist.

Fear is the great motivator and the Republicans know how to use it so well! Look how well the negative SuperPac ads are working in this primary!

IMO, the birther movement is a clear indication of people not being able to think for themselves, but being driven by fear and suspicion...

Originally posted by kerazeesicko
The fact no other president has ever provided a birth certificate to prove they are American totally does not matter to them.

Actually, this is false and demonstrably so. First, we have McCain. He was born in the U.S. Canal Zone in Panama, which raised legitimate questions about his technical status for being a Natural Born Citizen by the definition the Constitution is taken to mean that. Did McCain ridicule and laugh at anyone to question it? Did McCain simply hire an army of lawyers to fight every case and bury every petitioner? No.. McCain faced it head on and did such an outstanding job of putting this issue down hard that many people aren't even aware that it was an issue at all.

Obama could have ended HIS issues just as quickly. McCain didn't throw his Birth Cert out to the media, but he did submit and cooperate with a Senate investigation to put the matter to rest one way or the other. I can accept that, and I'd accept it for Obama. Senators put their name to the finding...and their political futures if McCain turned out badly, and that gives the finding credibility.

McCain Birth Controversy

Next for Candidates, we have Barry Goldwater, who also had a serious birth issue and very similar to Obama as being a technical thing. Barry was born in Arizona while it was still the Arizona Territory, not the State Of. That raised major questions but, again, Barry Goldwater didn't take to fighting and ridiculing everyone who raised the question and he sure didn't send teams of lawyers out to slay the very question itself.

Finally, and these aren't the only examples, but here we have a sitting President who did submit his BC to the public. We have copies of it to view and we have the stories about how, why and what it was all about:

Elected 34th president of the United States in November 1952, Eisenhower made it through his first 62 years without any need for a birth certificate. However, the need arose when he became a presidential candidate. Since Eisenhower was the oldest man to be elected president since James Buchanan over 100 years earlier, age was obviously not at issue. Instead, there was protocol in place for presidential candidates to provide proof of eligibility to appear on the ballot.

Source

So, as I show here, the issue of a Presidential Candidate's birth status is not unique to Obama for a question the public has asked of others. In fact, as Eisenhower demonstrates, that has been asked about and addressed without fanfare for a man who went on to WIN the Presidency. Only Obama has taken the whole thing as a direct challenge and something to fight with all he has available. Only this President has chosen to look down upon and make fools of anyone who dares ask about this part of his background.

Why the difference? I really don't know and not knowing *IS* the problem. There is absolutely no reason we shouldn't know for the man we have leading us as President.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Only Obama has taken the whole thing as a direct challenge and something to fight with all he has available. Only this President has chosen to look down upon and make fools of anyone who dares ask about this part of his background.

edit on 1-2-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

I stand corrected...

Yet I would love to see the documented proof about the statement above.

Show us where he takes it personal...show us where he fights with everything available to him..as for the fool part...you guys make it too easy...

It's clear to us that the WND story has been twisted to wrongly assume that every dollar the Obama campaign spent on legal fees went to fight the release of Obama's birth certificate. The evidence shows that's simply not true. It's a huge, unsubstantiated leap to assume that all, or most, of that was related to lawsuits about Obama's citizenship

claims Obama has spent $2 million in legal fees defending lawsuits about his birth certificate

As I also stated in your last failed attempt to confuse the authenticity of Obama’s heritage,

There were NO SSN# before there was Social Security Department and this occurred in 1935.

And this time, in your attempt that, will fail as well, like many before you play the

RACE CARD.

This really shows that you have no idea of Obama’s authentic heritage.

If Obama’s family tree is, as he, himself has laid out makes him of mixed race , which would roughly be half White, quarter Arab, and quarter Black.

Which part are you trying to say the American People are being racists about ?

Are the Blacks in this Nation hating Obama because he is half White ?

Or is it the Arab Americans hating Obama because he is half White ?

Or is it White Americans hating Obama because he is half White ?

Or is it both Black and White Americans hating Obama because he is a quarter Arab ?

Which is it ?

Playing the Race Card with Obama only works with the un-informed.

Americans who support FULL Discloser of the person who occupies the office of President are being Loyal, Lawful, Patriotic, Constitutional Citizens.

Which,

Those who do NOT support Full Discloser are treasonous, criminals, who are engaged in open rebellion of the United States Supreme Law.

Full Discloser is not about Obama, it is about America, get over it.

The United States has the RIGHT to know everything about who the President was / is no matter who the person is.

If Obama is so “thin Skinned” that he take offense that the People of this Nation are Requiring that he “comes clean” maybe he is not mature enough for the office in the first place.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
There is absolutely no reason we shouldn't know for the man we have leading us as President.

edit on 1-2-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

Yet it has been proven that he is an American citizen....yet you refuse it because it is not what you want to hear.

Jean-Claude Tremblay's Profile

This man has stated that in fact the certificate is legit...why would a man with 20 years experience in this filed lie?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

A list of the evidence (bold items are either lies created by birthers or debunked in other ways):


P1. Affidavit of Licensed investigator, certified by the Department of Homeland Security, Susan Daniels, showing Obama using a Connecticut SSN 042-68-4425

P2. Affidavit of Senior Deportation Officer with the Department of Homeland Security John Sampson, showing that Obama is using Connecticut SSN 042-68-4425 and stating, that there is no legitimate reason for him to use a Connecticut SSN, as he was never a resident of Connecticut

p3. Affidavit of Adobe Illustrator expert Felicito Papa, showing Obama’s alleged true and correct copy of his birth certificate to be a computer generated forgery

P4. Affidavit of witness Linda Jordan, attesting to the fact, that SSN 042-68-4425, used by Obama, does not pass E-Verify

p5. Affidavit of attorney Orly Taitz, and selective service printout, showing Obama using CT SSN 042-68-4425

p6. Selective service certificate showing Obama using SSN 042-68-4425 and official printout from Social Security Number Verification Services, showing that 042-68-4425 was never issued to Barack Obama, attached e-mail from Colonel Gregory Hollister p7. Affidavit of Adobe Illustrator expert Felicito Papa, showing that Obama is using CT SSN 042-68-4425 on his 2009 tax returns p8. Affidavit of printing and scanning machines expert Douglas Vogt, attesting to the fact, that Obama’s alleged copy of his birth certificate, is indeed a forgery p9. Hawaiian birth certificate 61-00637 of Susan Nordyke, born a few hours after Obama in Kapiolani Hospital, looks completely different from alleged copy of birth certificate of Obama

p7. Affidavit of Adobe Illustrator expert Felicito Papa, showing that Obama is using CT SSN 042-68-4425 on his 2009 tax returns

p8. Affidavit of printing and scanning machines expert Douglas Vogt, attesting to the fact, that Obama’s alleged copy of his birth certificate, is indeed a forgery

p9. Hawaiian birth certificate 61-00637 of Susan Nordyke, born a few hours after Obama in Kapiolani Hospital, looks completely different from alleged copy of birth certificate of Obama

p10. Passport records of Stanley Ann Dunham Obama, mother of Barack Obama, showing Obama listed in her passport under the name Barack Obama Soebarkah, attached affidavit by Chris Strunk, recipient of Obama’s passport records under FOIA

p11. Barack Obama’s Indonesian school registration card #203, date accepted January 1, 1968, released by the Associated Press in Indonesia, showing him using last name Soetoro and listing citizenship –Indonesia. List of Exhibits going to Judge Malihi in Atlanta GA in Farrar et al v Obama et al


I'll look at the others two, but considering the bold ones are mostly based on lies Taitz herself generated, I'd bet the rest is easily debunked as well.

OK - I've looked around for info on number 10. The original document has the name Soebarkah after Barrack Obama. It was scratched out at the time it was filed. The name Soebarkah is a very common Indonesian name AND a place name. The name Soebarkah is not found on ANY OTHER documentation. Considering all of that I would assume that it was originally an error by the clerk, was scratched out at the time, because it was an error and is in fact a red herring. Anyone but me seen Brazil? Tuttle? If we get to throw out Presidents because on one form somewhere someone made a mistake and then crossed it out... well, I'd like to see allt he record for all the Republican candidates please. Unless someone somewhere can show that this part of some larger pattern (like the name showing up on ANY OTHER Obama related document, this should be considered an error and NOT evidence.

Finally, number 11: His mother didn't fill out the form. It was filled out by Lolo Soetoro (his step-father who never adopted hm, FTR) before Barack moved to Indonesia in the 1960s. It was not a legally binding form and probably lists Lolo's aspirations, nothing else. Debunked.

So there you go. All BS, and MOST of it lies generated by Taitz and her cabal. She should honestly be prosecuted for this.

reply to post by brokedown


You may THINK you have the RIGHT to know everything about someone, but guess what you don't.

President's ALL OF THEM, have kept personal information private.

There's NO basis for assuming this belief of yours MEANS anything.

Believe what you want, but the history of Presidents will tell a MUCH different story to what you believe.