Help me challenge my beliefs.

Hello ATS.

"I come back to you now, at the turn of the tide" :p

It's been more than a decade I delved in the world of the strange and magical, alien and mystical, scary and paranormal. Vast amount of time have been spent reading, exchanging and experiencing. My perception of this world changed from agnostic scientist (I have a degree in business engineering), to liberal mystic, through various stages like conspiracy theorists, paranoid schizophrenic and born again Christian. Yes, a hell of a ride

It seems I kinda reached a plateau lately. I feel like I got all the answers I've been looking for and yet I also know it's all an illusion, and the more I let my belief system crystallize, the more likely I am to build myself a new dogma to imprison myself in.

So here is where I need you, fellow searchers. I chose to come back here after a long absence because I always liked the overall "serious" and yet relaxed and respecting atmosphere of this forum. If I wanted the thrill of an endless banter with trolls and saints alike, I know of other places to post, but this is not what I am looking for today

I'm looking for a constructive discussion, or maybe a "de-constructive" one, actually. What I would like to achieve here is to test my current beliefs, given and preconceptions against the inputs of anyone who wishes to participate in this. I have no expectation regarding the outcome of this. Whether I'll end up comforted or challenged, helping or helped, wiser or more foolish, is for the Time to decide.

I don't really know how to start this so I'll let the natural flow of the discussion guide us. I could begin by summing up all of my current beliefs but that would probably take too long if we don't focus on specific topics before. So I'll rather let those who are interested in participating in this decide the directions this thread will take.

Whether you want me to develop some parts of my story and beliefs,
Whether you want to share something and ask me my opinion,
Whether you want to improvize and let your mind wander as we post unrelated stuffs,

Please be most welcome to join this thread and take part in it's weaving. No subject will be dismissed, no opinion will be ridiculed, no question will be unanswered (at least I'll try :p). It might be a bit selfish of me to request your help to challenge my beliefs, but I'm sure anyone who'll participate in this can find something valuable for them too, as long as we keep this under the auspices of Respect and Understanding

I'll try to stay as active as possible on the thread but please forgive me in advance if I stay away of my computer for some time. It won't be disinterest from my part but just the pursuit of a healthy balance between the digital and real life.

So, who wants to start? Where should we go?

P.S.: please forgive me for my spelling errors and miscommunication that may happen from time to time as English isn't my mother tongue.
P.S.2: if this isn't the right place to start such a thread, please indicate me where to post it and I'll gladly move it there.

reply to post by SpaceGoatsFarts


why 'believe'? I can believe in anything I want to, but based on what?
the so called reality illusion is merely a belief in play that you can't shake because so many have the same belief.
mob mentality meets power of suggestion.

If only everyone welcomed to challenge their beliefs, we could possibly journey into the age of critical thinking.

Well for a starter discussion, renown skeptic Michael Shermer is outspoken against the word "supernatural", it is really nothing more than a filler/word placeholder for the unknown and that all processes we come across are driven to be explained in natural terms. Do you agree with shermer, or do you believe the supernatural is a reality outside our logic and rational thought?

reply to post by SpaceGoatsFarts


hi op
i know how you feel
its like we know where we should as a species be going
but dont know how to take the first step
wen i was about 10 i read the philadelphia experiment by burlitz and moore
that changed my whole childhood perception on the world
i would even say it cost me a few friends because they couldnt understand me

i cant challenge no beliefs, for everytime i have one its quickly quashed,though i still have moralistic values
of topic
your in belgium?
ive been there many times yrs ago visiting ww1 graves trenches museums etc
i love the country and i love the people
regards
dave

reply to post by yourmaker


Because like you said, people's beliefs is what shapes their very own world. And even that, your opinion, my opinion, are nothing but beliefs.

Few things are in the domain of the verifiable, and all the rest is in the domain of beliefs.


So even if, let's say; I'm currently believing in nothing because the world is nothing but randomness and chaos, and the sum of individual beliefs, that too is a belief.

Originally posted by SpaceGoatsFarts
reply to post by yourmaker

 

Because like you said, people's beliefs is what shapes their very own world. And even that, your opinion, my opinion, are nothing but beliefs.

Few things are in the domain of the verifiable, and all the rest is in the domain of beliefs.


So even if, let's say; I'm currently believing in nothing because the world is nothing but randomness and chaos, and the sum of individual beliefs, that too is a belief.

opinion can be based on fact. not belief.
knowing facts is not a myth. we as human beings are capable of knowing things, it's in our nature.
beliefs are a presumption of fact.

everything can be verified in one form or another, name one thing that can't.
god in it's current form could be verified to be non-existant, unless you can prove it, then it would exist, but until then, it would remain a belief, and that's not opinion, but based on a fact.

Originally posted by juveous
Well for a starter discussion, renown skeptic Michael Shermer is outspoken against the word "supernatural", it is really nothing more than a filler/word placeholder for the unknown and that all processes we come across are driven to be explained in natural terms. Do you agree with shermer, or do you believe the supernatural is a reality outside our logic and rational thought?

In my opinion, both your proposition are just different ways to describe the same thing.

When we try to explain something, we are limited by the tool used to analyse and express and explain. Mathematics can only explain the world in terms of numbers. Science can only describe the world in terms of information.

When something falls outside the boundaries of the tool we use, it is outside that tool's logic and rationality.

Since our ultimate tool is our mind contained in this body, we are bound to explain everything within the limit set by our own minds and bodies, and everything that will fall outside of this will be labelled as 'supernatural", as our nature is that of the mind and body.

IMHO

reply to post by davesmart


Thank you

Originally posted by yourmaker
everything can be verified in one form or another, name one thing that can't.

The meaning of life?

Originally posted by SpaceGoatsFarts

Originally posted by juveous
Well for a starter discussion, renown skeptic Michael Shermer is outspoken against the word "supernatural", it is really nothing more than a filler/word placeholder for the unknown and that all processes we come across are driven to be explained in natural terms. Do you agree with shermer, or do you believe the supernatural is a reality outside our logic and rational thought?

In my opinion, both your proposition are just different ways to describe the same thing.

When we try to explain something, we are limited by the tool used to analyse and express and explain. Mathematics can only explain the world in terms of numbers. Science can only describe the world in terms of information.

When something falls outside the boundaries of the tool we use, it is outside that tool's logic and rationality.

Since our ultimate tool is our mind contained in this body, we are bound to explain everything within the limit set by our own minds and bodies, and everything that will fall outside of this will be labelled as 'supernatural", as our nature is that of the mind and body.

IMHO

so what then falls outside of the limits of information? The entire world is filtered through the brain, which can be observed as the body enabling the mind, or so that is what is evident (apparent). Why wouldnt experience that appears outside the structure of rationality, be evidence of a distorted brain?

reply to post by juveous


It's an interesting point of view. I don't have the answer but I see 2 possibilities:

Experiences outside the realm of the rational mind are a symptom of a distorted brain. "Distorted" meaning here less functional.
Experiences outside the realm of the rational mind are a symptom of a distorted brain. "Distorted" meaning here differently/more functional.

In both case it's a qualitative difference regarding what could be considered a "normal" brain. I believe what we call "supernatural" pertain also to the qualitative difference of the experience of the accepted norm.

Is the experience lived by a fly less "natural" and real than ours? And yet it's incredibly different.

Originally posted by juveous
so what then falls outside of the limits of information? The entire world is filtered through the brain

I don't think I could express it with information

Lets imagine information as a 2D projection of a 3D reality.

The brain is the 2D processor through which the 3D world is filtered, or projected.

What falls outside the limit of information? That "3rd" dimension that is lost at the moment of the filtering.

I'm not saying there IS something that falls outside information, I'm just saying it would be very difficult if not impossible to try to find out with our brains only... If we did, it would probably look like something "out of the realm of the rational".

reply to post by juveous

This: "so what then falls outside of the limits of information? The entire world is filtered through the brain, which can be observed as the body enabling the mind, or so that is what is evident (apparent). Why wouldnt experience that appears outside the structure of rationality, be evidence of a distorted brain?"

This is the very essence of the universe.
The very essence of the World, Earth and Humans.
Enjoy it.

Also, for all, the mind is not separate of the body, it is a part of it. No use in examining it asides the body in a philosophical discussion.

Originally posted by SpaceGoatsFarts

Originally posted by juveous
so what then falls outside of the limits of information? The entire world is filtered through the brain

I don't think I could express it with information

Lets imagine information as a 2D projection of a 3D reality.

The brain is the 2D processor through which the 3D world is filtered, or projected.

What falls outside the limit of information? That "3rd" dimension that is lost at the moment of the filtering.

I'm not saying there IS something that falls outside information, I'm just saying it would be very difficult if not impossible to try to find out with our brains only... If we did, it would probably look like something "out of the realm of the rational".

What the hell are you talking about?
What exactly is your point?

That there are thing unexplained?
Sure there are.
And?

Originally posted by BBalazs

What the hell are you talking about?
What exactly is your point?

That there are thing unexplained?
Sure there are.
And?

What we were discussing about is:

These things that are unexplained today, do you think we would be one day able to explain them? Or aren't we even equipped to do that in the first place?

reply to post by SpaceGoatsFarts

What things. You post is so long, I went on the replies.
Tell me what is unexplained, and I will give you an honest answer.

Originally posted by juveous
Well for a starter discussion, renown skeptic Michael Shermer is outspoken against the word "supernatural", it is really nothing more than a filler/word placeholder for the unknown and that all processes we come across are driven to be explained in natural terms. Do you agree with shermer, or do you believe the supernatural is a reality outside our logic and rational thought?

reply to post by SpaceGoatsFarts

Help me challenge my beliefs

No.

Not being nasty but beliefs are internal. You're asking for external sources to challenge them. Yet you have already challenged them by asking for outside influences.

Simply by asking, you have challenged your own beliefs and have relegated them to something less than beliefs.

Good luck in your journey, but I'm afraid it'll be a solo trip.

beez

reply to post by SpaceGoatsFarts

I believe this.
There is more evidence for the supernatural being a brain coping mechanism, then for the existence.
That being said, I think our brains are miracles and creators, so ultimately our path will lay in our ability to use untapped resources in our brain.
I would venture to say, that given a wide enough time frame, we may even have some kind of telepathy, enhanced by biology and such.
As for the supernatural as such.
Well, what can I say.
It is a belief, triggered by the brain based on evidence.
Now that being said, if your feet are anchored in reality, it is a wonderful thing to explore the limits of your brain and imagination.
Very enlightening.
If you loose your grip on the consensual reality, you will end up mad, bitter and lost.
Should you be able to delve into the magical, with a grip on reality and critical thinking, you will be enlightened, in essence reaching as close to nirvana as is possible.

Annunaki time clay tabled. See even Pluto is on it, which wasn't discovered by 1930. So its save to assume that the 12th planet also exist. Why would they map everything correct and put one planet on it to fool the world centuries later.

So Then if you know that history, then you now we are created as a work race to mine gold for the giants the walked the earth.

This was all in a time before religion. Everything origins from it. Even the Adam and Eva story. You know where Eva is created out of Adam's rib. Whats in a rib? Good dna. Adam according to the clay tablets was hybrid so they had to create a woman for reproduction.

Its save to assume this is true.