The problem with America, is that it is full of Americans.

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posted on Jan, 27 2012 @ 05:38 AM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 



Why were infant mortality rates more or less the same until modern times?


Where's your source? I call BS. Doesn't change the fact that the Catholics were even bigger charlatans than the Wiccans. And much of modern medicine is based on the knowledge that came from ancient medicinal practices.

The Europeans didn't get the tech from the east, they developed the tech, as the source I provided pointed out.

Heresy was a crime because the Catholics for the most part were a bunch of religious control freak nutcases. Who, by the way, completely ignored the teachings of JC.


under these conditions, instability becomes a very subjective term that you can make whatever you want.


Bingo, glad you finally got it, which also makes all your claims about instability a bunch of nonsense to prop up beliefs in the Catholic Church and Empires.

By the way, it was Mexico that attacked the U.S., they thought they could beat us in a war, having a larger more experienced army due to constant battles to defeat numerous revolutions. Mexico lost a war of aggression, and Mexico never had a legitimate claim to CA. I am not going to bother to refute your other false claims.


I honestly would not have a problem if a military leader took 20 million soldiers, slaughtered a few corporations and fired the government, and then held new elections, baring anyone from the establishment from running, and then retired. In fact, this would be my ideal. This cure would not be worse than the disease. For the leader would retire and things would return to the way they ought to be.


Yeah, that would be like trying to perform surgery with a butcher knife. History has shown that the military dictator never retires. It has only happened twice in all known history.

Ron Paul has been saying a lot of intelligent things lately, but he still believes in the Free Market, which is communism IMO. It is unrealistic idealism that allows people to get by with doing very bad things to others.




posted on Jan, 27 2012 @ 08:39 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 





Where's your source? I call BS. Doesn't change the fact that the Catholics were even bigger charlatans than the Wiccans. And much of modern medicine is based on the knowledge that came from ancient medicinal practices.


The lack of people before the year 1800....
You know...

The time when modern medicine was invented.
The time when the population of the world first hit a billion.
The time when mystic BS was dropped at long last, and only a group of fanatical Wicca still smoked wild mushrooms for "health"?



No. Most medicine comes from scientific discoveries made in the last 200 years.

And ancient medical practitioners were not witches and warlocks. They were respected individuals with knowledge of chemistry and the body. That's why in ancient times, the doctor had an office, and the witch was a tree huger in the forest and bog, having dinner with the bloated corpse of a family member who died some years ago and the bog to which they dumped him into puked him back up. Primitive beliefs, primitive understandings, and outright retarded actions.

If we go back even further to the time before civilization, even then the medical people were not magicians and mystic fools. They were botanists. They studied the plants and animals and how they reacted to certain illnesses. Not a witch. A scientist.

When Rome was going to found a new city, they would build an altar and sacrifice a local animal, usually a pig. But this seemingly religious event was barely that. They took the pig and looked at his organs. looked for cancer and disease, so they knew if it was safe to settle.

Your lesser educated Wicca friends took this trait and made it mystic rather than scientific. I see no reason to think of the pagan folks of today, or for that matter the last few centuries, as anything by charlatans with cheep magic tricks for show.

And yea, sure the church has been charlatans. All people, nations, and organizations have been at some point. That business with indulgences was a joke, and Luther taught them straight.




The Europeans didn't get the tech from the east, they developed the tech, as the source I provided pointed out.


Your source says it came from the east, as many other sources as well.




Heresy was a crime because the Catholics for the most part were a bunch of religious control freak nutcases. Who, by the way, completely ignored the teachings of JC.


Not always.

Only some times. Once again, nobody on Earth has been perfect.




Bingo, glad you finally got it, which also makes all your claims about instability a bunch of nonsense to prop up beliefs in the Catholic Church and Empires.


False. for you have not shown how it was subjective nor how it was wrong.




By the way, it was Mexico that attacked the U.S., they thought they could beat us in a war, having a larger more experienced army due to constant battles to defeat numerous revolutions. Mexico lost a war of aggression, and Mexico never had a legitimate claim to CA. I am not going to bother to refute your other false claims.


We let our people settle on their land and did nothing to stop it. We were the illegal immigrants. We took over.




Yeah, that would be like trying to perform surgery with a butcher knife. History has shown that the military dictator never retires. It has only happened twice in all known history.


Actually quite a number of times. The two I mentioned, and Washington, whom by all means had the choice to continue his presidency and make it a dictatorship. I'm sure if I looked it up there would be other examples too. It has happened in history. Hell, I'd even call Putin a close runner up to it if he eventually retires. The man has absolute authority, and yet follows the rules of his country in terms of offices.

History shows that humanity does what it feels is best. That's all it shows.




Ron Paul has been saying a lot of intelligent things lately, but he still believes in the Free Market, which is communism IMO. It is unrealistic idealism that allows people to get by with doing very bad things to others.


And yet, he'd persecute polluters because it falls under interstate commerce and matters and thus the federal government has a role.

Ron Paul would be an internal dictator. A role carried out in many ways by previous American presidents.

Lincoln, FDR, Washington. All men with absolute power whom used it wisely.

If that makes me sound like I support dictators so be it. But let it be known I support what works. When the republic has died, dictators are needed to resurrect it.
edit on 27-1-2012 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)
edit on 27-1-2012 by Gorman91 because: Le Spelling



posted on Jan, 27 2012 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


As I thought, you have no basis for your claims.

The Wicca were respected individuals who were botanists and studied how the human body worked. They were the alchemists of the day, who developed a great deal of what we know of as chemistry.

It was the Catholics who thought disease was cause by evil spirits. Why large numbers of people ever became Catholic is the biggest mystery.

My source says one ingredient came from the East, saltpeter. The Europeans developed gunpowder, and then canons and firearms, which gave them military superiority over the rest of the world. Why do you insist on giving credit to the East for things they did not invent?

You are the one who has to show that your claims about instability have any merit.

California never belonged to Mexico. The U.S. had as much right to the territory as the Mexicans. Mexico started a war of conquest, lost, and was then forced to give up claims to territory that it did not control.

Washington is one of the two, can you name the other? I have yet to see you point out any facts. Putin wasn't the first President of Russia. All evidence shows he was forced to step down.

While a few U.S. Presidents took on considerable power, they were never nowhere near to being dictators, and there is never any justification for a dictator.

Maybe the bigger problem is that we have allowed too many people into our country who do not respect our culture and our beliefs.



posted on Jan, 27 2012 @ 02:29 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 





The Wicca were respected individuals who were botanists and studied how the human body worked. They were the alchemists of the day, who developed a great deal of what we know of as chemistry.


They didn't even "really" exist before the advent of modern science. Are you sure you aren't talking about alchemists? People with opinion, not fantastical beliefs?




It was the Catholics who thought disease was cause by evil spirits. Why large numbers of people ever became Catholic is the biggest mystery.


So did Jesus to some small degree. We have no proof for or against it. That's what's great about science. No proof = no pinion. So if you want to make an opinion, go ahead. Because there's no proof for or against it.




My source says one ingredient came from the East, saltpeter. The Europeans developed gunpowder, and then canons and firearms, which gave them military superiority over the rest of the world. Why do you insist on giving credit to the East for things they did not invent?


Because the Ottomans breached the gates of Europe with the canon, not the other way around.




You are the one who has to show that your claims about instability have any merit.


When the economy is unstable, people loose long-lasting fortunes and establishments. Simple enough proof.




California never belonged to Mexico. The U.S. had as much right to the territory as the Mexicans. Mexico started a war of conquest, lost, and was then forced to give up claims to territory that it did not control.


No. We simply moved faster. Mexico, least you forget, is far more native American than the US. But even that is ignorant ad they and theirs was not one people, nor was the land theirs without having stolen it from whatever nation was before it.

We only had the claim because our people moved there faster and build sooner. It was a time when the US has a tendency to do that, the people would organize their own Independence nations, and then they would join the union.




Washington is one of the two, can you name the other? I have yet to see you point out any facts. Putin wasn't the first President of Russia. All evidence shows he was forced to step down.


I did. Were you once again not reading all of what I said? Again, it's getting sort of annoying.

Washington, and for the most part, you could say every president before FDR. After all, before FDR, no legal document said you had to be limited by two terms. Every man in power won it by popular vote, and rescinded it on their own free will.

The ones whom actually acted like dictators, for the most part, was Lincoln, Teddy, and FDR. All of them breached the traditional bounds of the presidency in order to intervene in situations. Woodrow Wilson as well if you think about those words on an international level. Hell, perhaps even Millard Fillmore, considering he more or less forced Japan to open to his trading demands.




While a few U.S. Presidents took on considerable power, they were never nowhere near to being dictators, and there is never any justification for a dictator.


What is a dictator but a man entrusted and given absolute power and authority? He always has his companions, advisers, and aids.

To those ends, the presidency is a sanctified dictatorial power. Some even wanted to call it that, or emperor. Washington chose presidency. Does the president of a company not have dictator-like power? When he screws up do they not remove him? When a dictator fails is he not removed?

Same thing in my book. The presidency is a form of limited dictatorship. Part of a three way system deisgned to support itself should one branch fail or take too much power.




Maybe the bigger problem is that we have allowed too many people into our country who do not respect our culture and our beliefs.



en.wikipedia.org...

Thanks but no thanks.
edit on 27-1-2012 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 27 2012 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


Modern science didn't just appear out of nowhere. Newton was fascinated with alchemy.

The forces that stopped the attempt of the Ottoman's to conquer Europe had cannon as well. And this was long after cannons were invented.


When the economy is unstable, people loose long-lasting fortunes and establishments. Simple enough proof.


This only proves that instability causes economic break downs. The real answer is to look at what caused the instability, and historically that has been a concentration of wealth.


Mexico, least you forget, is far more native American than the US.


Not the people who rule Mexico, and then only on their mother's side. That the Spaniards raped Native American women at will hardly puts them on the moral high ground.

Sorry, but U.S. presidents are not dictators, nor have they ever been.



posted on Jan, 27 2012 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 





Modern science didn't just appear out of nowhere. Newton was fascinated with alchemy.


Alchemy was closer to science than any Wica could hope. Or are you again assuming I did not like alchemy? Again, please read what I say.





The forces that stopped the attempt of the Ottoman's to conquer Europe had cannon as well. And this was long after cannons were invented.


And yet they loss. So whom knew what they were doing with the new technology? I'd say the ones whom had it first.




This only proves that instability causes economic break downs. The real answer is to look at what caused the instability, and historically that has been a concentration of wealth.


Concentrations of wealth help to create economic stability because, unless you were stupid and invested all of it without saving any of it, it acts as a cushion. Hence the federal reserve.




Not the people who rule Mexico, and then only on their mother's side. That the Spaniards raped Native American women at will hardly puts them on the moral high ground.


Who cares who ruled them? I am talking of the people.




Sorry, but U.S. presidents are not dictators, nor have they ever been.


So when Lincoln suspended civil rights and privileges, he was doing it for democracy?



posted on Jan, 27 2012 @ 05:11 PM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


Wicca is closely tied to alchemy.

The Ottomans lost, to the Slavs and the Holy Roman Empire.

Concentration of wealth creates economic instability, see the 1890ties, 1920ties and the last decade.

Lincoln did not suspend civil rights and privileges. It is just another gross exaggeration on your part.



posted on Jan, 28 2012 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


Wicca is it's own invention. Alchemy is eons older than the made up religion called Wicca. Whatever they were in the past, this fabrication of what it's been in the last 200 years is not it.




The Ottomans lost, to the Slavs and the Holy Roman Empire.


And? They took South East Europe.




Concentration of wealth creates economic instability, see the 1890ties, 1920ties and the last decade.


My favorite times of US history.




Lincoln did not suspend civil rights and privileges. It is just another gross exaggeration on your part.


usgovinfo.about.com...



posted on Jan, 28 2012 @ 05:17 PM
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reply to post by mblahnikluver
 


The bashing must be "the in thing to do." Lately, it seems, America bashing has been at an all-time high. Go ahead and hate our politicians but not the people. Truth is, when people try to tear you down its because they are jealous. That's a fact. Looking at immigration statistics, America is still the greatest place to live, or else I doubt the U.S. wouldn't have the largest population of immigrants in the world. Europe is experiencing its own economic crisis too. Its a mess over there too.



posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 06:06 PM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


Wicca existed in Europe long before Christianity ever came to Europe. Catholics managed to erase a great deal of the knowledge of Wica, but failed to completely eliminate it. Now larger and larger groups are beginning once again to embrace the superior philosophy of Wica. Alchemy was was always deeply entwined with Wica.

The much larger Ottoman Empire managed to defeat a few small countries in southeast Europe, who were unaided by the rest of Europe, but when it came to meeting larger armies, even though the Ottomans commanded larger armies, they were still defeated and pushed back, demonstrating that they did not have superior military power, and certainly not better develop cannons, which they purchased from other European countries. Your point ignores the facts.

Lincoln put laws into effect in war zones, not the same as you claim. Your link does not prove your claims, but just the opposite.

U.S. style democracy has continuously proved itself to be a superior form of government. The people of the U.S. continue to prove that they will stand up to the rich and powerful, using government to defend their rights.

The people who want to undermine the U.S. government are in fact people who do not believe democractic institutions of representative government.

Right now, too many of the people are being fooled by those who want to destroy the very institutions that protect our liberty. That is our current problem.


edit on 29-1-2012 by poet1b because: typo and add a line on link



posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 06:25 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 





Wicca existed in Europe long before Christianity ever came to Europe


Sure it did. But that doesn't mean what Wicca is today is the same as it was before.

Israel has the name of Israel, that doesn't make it God's nation, nor does it make it the same Israel that died eons ago.

A name is just a name.




Now larger and larger groups are beginning once again to embrace the superior philosophy of Wica. Alchemy was was always deeply entwined with Wica.


Keep telling yourself that.




The much larger Ottoman Empire managed to defeat a few small countries in southeast Europe, who were unaided by the rest of Europe, but when it came to meeting larger armies, even though the Ottomans commanded larger armies, they were still defeated and pushed back, demonstrating that they did not have superior military power, and certainly not better develop cannons, which they purchased from other European countries. Your point ignores the facts.


Mostly because all of this is irrelevant to what I said.




Lincoln put laws into effect in war zones, not the same as you claim. Your link does not prove your claims, but just the opposite.



You mean like how we killed an American just because he was in another country and a terrorist?

You're an American, you get your rights. There is no excuse.




U.S. style democracy has continuously proved itself to be a superior form of government. The people of the U.S. continue to prove that they will stand up to the rich and powerful, using government to defend their rights.


Yea but that government is usually in bed with the same people it's going up against.




The people who want to undermine the U.S. government are in fact people who do not believe democractic institutions of representative government. Right now, too many of the people are being fooled by those who want to destroy the very institutions that protect our liberty. That is our current problem.

Calling them democratic institutions is a problem. They are not, as the minority is protected in a republic, but not in a democracy.
edit on 29-1-2012 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 08:58 PM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


I proved that the Ottomans didn't have superior or advanced cannon tech, and that it was the Europeans who developed the technology.

Americans who violate U.S. law are deprived of their rights, as they should be. Doesn't prove that Lincoln was a dictator.

You really don't get, or refuse to get, what representative government is all about.

You have been proven wrong at every point, while trying to support the idea that empires are better than democracy. Who do you think you are fooling?



posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 09:44 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 





I proved that the Ottomans didn't have superior or advanced cannon tech, and that it was the Europeans who developed the technology.


Not having superior tech when they entered Europe says nothing of if they were the ones whom invented it.


America invented the air plane. That doesn't change the fact that Nazi Germany perfected many of the designs of it. It doesn't mean America didn't invent it. It means someone got better at it at a later date.




Americans who violate U.S. law are deprived of their rights, as they should be. Doesn't prove that Lincoln was a dictator.


That's stupid honestly. If you are only protected by the law if you follow it, then the law is irrelevant.




You really don't get, or refuse to get, what representative government is all about. You have been proven wrong at every point, while trying to support the idea that empires are better than democracy. Who do you think you are fooling?


You say this. I merely say different systems work for different situations.



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 11:45 AM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


In the case of cannons, firearms, and gunpowder, they were invented in Europe, and I provided the links of the history that shows just that. You are now clinging to fantasy.

You are a fan of the Roman Empire over the Republic, the Catholic Church, the Ottoman Empire, and NAZI Germany. It is clear why you don't care for the U.S. or our principles.

While the U.S. isn't perfect, our form of government is far superior to any Empire. When the people of the U.S. wake up to that reality, we will be far better off as a nation.



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 12:19 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 





In the case of cannons, firearms, and gunpowder, they were invented in Europe, and I provided the links of the history that shows just that. You are now clinging to fantasy.


Your own link says it's unknown. But it seems pretty obvious it was invented in the east. The oldest physical data is from the Islamic world.

It seems far more likely that the nations leading in chemistry and physics research would be the ones to invent it than a bunch of feudal lords. The Italians seem like the earlier users of the thing once it cam over to Europe, which makes sense, as they would be on the trade lines.


www.history-science-technology.com...




You are a fan of the Roman Empire over the Republic, the Catholic Church, the Ottoman Empire, and NAZI Germany. It is clear why you don't care for the U.S. or our principles.


You say this. I'm just going to assume its because you don't actually read what I say, like those half dozen times before.




While the U.S. isn't perfect, our form of government is far superior to any Empire. When the people of the U.S. wake up to that reality, we will be far better off as a nation.


What is Empire but the execution of authority from one place over many places. In that case, the US has always been an empire.



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 01:50 PM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


The oldest physical data on the development of pure nitrates or saltpetre, which is the key ingredient of gunpowder, comes from China, not the middle east. This formula passed through the middle east, but all evidence shows that no improvements were made. Once this formula arrived in Europe, then it was advanced to produce gun powder, cannons, and firearms. There after European military technology far surpassed the rest of the world.

mysite.du.edu...

I haven't misunderstood you, except for the one time when you switched from claiming that democracies are just forms of small oligarchies to claiming that instability was good for an economy.

Empires are ruled over by a sovereign, with strict hierarchy.

You just want to distort the picture and pretend that representative government can not work, despite the vast majority of the evidence proving the contrary.



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 02:29 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 





The oldest physical data on the development of pure nitrates or saltpetre, which is the key ingredient of gunpowder, comes from China, not the middle east. This formula passed through the middle east, but all evidence shows that no improvements were made. Once this formula arrived in Europe, then it was advanced to produce gun powder, cannons, and firearms. There after European military technology far surpassed the rest of the world.


And we again return to how do you think they got the idea? It's pretty clear that a bunch of peasants didn't invent the Renaissance over night.

1000 years of stagnant peasant culture with barely any technology to speak of, living in the ruins of one of the most advanced civilization to ever live.

Then all of the sudden they get into a war with the Muslims, and then they are suddenly conquering 3 continents.

Logic dictates the technology they had came from the nation they were at war with, whom, incidentally, also was conquering entire continents beforehand.

The era between the 3rd crusade through the Italian wars saw the largest explosion in technology not seen again until the industrial revolution. And it just so happens that at that same time, men were conquering continents. Are you completely forgetting the Huns?


Logic dictates the Europeans got the tech from the middle east, and then made it better. But they did not invent it. The Europeans barely invented anything before the Renaissance and after Rome fell.




You just want to distort the picture and pretend that representative government can not work, despite the vast majority of the evidence proving the contrary.


I am showing that governments work for different times and different cultures. Communist China wouldn't work in America, and American government wouldn't work in Iraq.

People create their own governments. Natural selection destroys the bad ones. History shows a clear pattern. In war, dictatorships work. In peace, democratic institutions work.
edit on 30-1-2012 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 



1000 years of stagnant peasant culture with barely any technology to speak of, living in the ruins of one of the most advanced civilization to ever live.


Pure nonsense, spread by the Catholic Church, and conservative society, because the Europeans never had as much of hierarchical society as the civilization our educational institutes prefer to teach. That other ancient civilizations put so much of their nations wealth into the hands of a few, building elaborate structures for the wealthy class is hardly proof of an advanced civilization. Modern archaeology is uncovering the real story.

Europeans were as equally advanced cultures as early as the Egyptians. Early European culture was over ran by groups from central Eurasia, just like the middle east was also invaded, but they developed much more along the lines of the civilization that had existed before, just as those who invaded the middle east and India were changed by the cultures they conquered.

European tech was considerably more advanced then mainstream historians have taught. How else could they have taken a few new technologies, added them to their existing technology, and then advanced them far beyond what others had achieved? Do the research and you will see that this is true.

Rapid technological advances have been common throughout human history. In the situation of Renaissance Europe, it was re-establishing democratic institutions the proved the catalyst.

By the way, communism isn't working in China, their current success comes from a trade imbalance created to enrich international bankers. China's current climb in status will be short lived, as they are failing to develop a sustainable economy, at the same time, doing a great deal of environmental damage to their country, far worse than what is happening here in the U.S..

Our modern civilization is going through rapid changes as we speak, and in the next decade, huge forces will reshape our world as we know it. What we are seeing right now is the death throes of our corporate controlled world.



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


And here we go with wrong terms.

Cultural advancement is no indication of actual worth of a civilization, usually at least. We can make an exception for the modern times with the internet, but the idea of cultural sophistication back then was totally different.

Many African and Native American tribes are more culturally advanced then the rest of the world. That doesn't change the fact that they die a lot by age 50 and haven't done much with their lives.

Hell Cultural advancement is indicative of strong hierarchy What the hell is this love of the medieval times? Unless you were a prince, the pope, or the leader of a guild, you just followed orders and kept quite.

Wasn't until th dark ages ended that freedom and progress followed. The midle class was born, and Europe was better off.




European tech was considerably more advanced then mainstream historians have taught. How else could they have taken a few new technologies, added them to their existing technology, and then advanced them far beyond what others had achieved? Do the research and you will see that this is true.


That's nonsensical. Japan was very similar to medieval Europe and popped themselves into the modern age in a brief few decades. They had nothing to go on.

Being able to jump technological says nothing to your advancement, because we are all human and capable of the same.




Rapid technological advances have been common throughout human history. In the situation of Renaissance Europe, it was re-establishing democratic institutions the proved the catalyst.


lol, what democratic institutions? You're off by about 300 years. Unless you were rich or smart, you were a peasant in the Renaissance.




By the way, communism isn't working in China, their current success comes from a trade imbalance created to enrich international bankers. China's current climb in status will be short lived, as they are failing to develop a sustainable economy, at the same time, doing a great deal of environmental damage to their country, far worse than what is happening here in the U.S..


All thanks to your democratic institutions.




Our modern civilization is going through rapid changes as we speak, and in the next decade, huge forces will reshape our world as we know it. What we are seeing right now is the death throes of our corporate controlled world.


That's a joke. All it is is a replacement of one corporate lord for another. From oppressive corporations to open ones. Corporations are the new nation states. They're not going anywhere unless a dictator comes to power.



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 05:06 PM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


Didn't say cultural advancement was a sign of a cultures worth, we were talking about technology.

And you are the one who has been keeping this discussion wrapped up in medieval times?


Wasn't until th dark ages ended that freedom and progress followed. The midle class was born, and Europe was better off.


I have been trying to point this out to you for several pages now.

And sorry, democracy began rising in Europe as early as the 13th century, it was just slow in coming.

China's problems have nothing to do with democratic institutions, and everything to do with corporations.

Corporations were the result of the industrial revolution. Their time is up, and and in the not so distant future, this will become apparent to everyone. Our current economic model is unsustainable. We will have to drastically reduce energy usage in the not too distant future. Physical realities are about to reshape our world.

I would add, I think many Native American cultures were tremendous. Europe, before Catholicism, was also, an exceptional culture. They had to advance or be conquered. Luckily, they had the capability to advance.





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