The problem with America, is that it is full of Americans.

reply to post by poet1b

Didn't say cultural advancement was a sign of a cultures worth, we were talking about technology. And you are the one who has been keeping this discussion wrapped up in medieval times?

Why did you go into culture then? And you're the one whom inferred such.

I have been trying to point this out to you for several pages now. And sorry, democracy began rising in Europe as early as the 13th century, it was just slow in coming.

Selective democracy is just expanded oligarchy.

Corporations were the result of the industrial revolution. Their time is up, and and in the not so distant future, this will become apparent to everyone. Our current economic model is unsustainable. We will have to drastically reduce energy usage in the not too distant future. Physical realities are about to reshape our world.

Or for the sake of profit they will just get energy from space.

You assume these borders and cut off points exist. I am not convinced they do.

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if we went to titan to get oil.

I would add, I think many Native American cultures were tremendous. Europe, before Catholicism, was also, an exceptional culture. They had to advance or be conquered. Luckily, they had the capability to advance.

Sure sure, because human sacrifice, infanticide, and unending war were so good.

reply to post by Gorman91


Because culture is important to the development of technology.

Selective democracy is just expanded oligarchy.

There you go again, claiming democracy is oligarchy. As I thought, that is what you meant from the beginning, and people who founded the U.S. certainly didn't think that way, and did not set up the U.S. government to be a selective democracy, once again, proving that your ideas do not agree with the ideas on which the U.S. was founded.

In the future we will use far less energy, and we will get it from locally produced renewable sources. Borders and cut off points do exist, and we are reaching ours when it comes to oil.

The only reason we waste so much energy is to keep the corporate system going, with planned obsolescence. Efficiency is the way of the future.

By the time we have the tech to reach Titan, we won't need oil.

You know nothing about early European culture.

And what Native American culture were you supporting?

reply to post by poet1b

Because culture is important to the development of technology.

Technology affects culture. Culture cannot affect technology. Planet Earth has 3 replicators. Genes, Memes, and Temes. Each one has a relationship to the other one, but it follows that culture follows technology. technology does not follow culture. I changes it.

There you go again, claiming democracy is oligarchy. As I thought, that is what you meant from the beginning, and people who founded the U.S. certainly didn't think that way, and did not set up the U.S. government to be a selective democracy, once again, proving that your ideas do not agree with the ideas on which the U.S. was founded.

And there you go again, not reading what I said.

I was talking about the dark ages.

Do try to keep up.

In the future we will use far less energy, and we will get it from locally produced renewable sources. Borders and cut off points do exist, and we are reaching ours when it comes to oil.

Someone doesn't read up on material research and energy research.

The only reason we waste so much energy is to keep the corporate system going, with planned obsolescence. Efficiency is the way of the future.

No it's because we're lazy. Sure planned obsolescence exists, but not to the extent people claim. It's primarily within the fashion and book industries. A few others, but not many.

Efficiency works for the energy producers. For the consumers like me? I'm just lazy. I keep the water running, I leave the lights on, I forget to recycle, etc etc. That's why we waste so much energy. Because we're lazy.

By the time we have the tech to reach Titan, we won't need oil.

You would think, but that's not true. Plastics, hydrocarbons, etc etc. All things that are not going to get replaced any time soon. The only real place oil won't be needed will be a common transportation source. It will always be needed however.

You know nothing about early European culture. And what Native American culture were you supporting?

I know quite a lot of early European culture, and a few American cultures. Human sacrifice, orgies, etc etc. Practically every advanced civilization to form in the west shook off such superstitious mystic bull and laughed at those whom till followed it. lol, well they never did get rid of orgies. The Greeks just made it all men usually.

reply to post by Gorman91


Sorry, but you clearly don't get technology, and cultures influence of technological innovation.

You need to get your mind out of the dark ages. Oligarchies only work in rigid societies. They break down in democratic societies, where individuals are allowed to achieve their own desired levels of success.

I am well read up on energy sources. If you think humanity can continue to consume energy at our current rates, you are living in a fantasy. Planned obsolescence exists in all industries. Plastic is a poor medium, that is only popular because it is a byproduct of gasoline, and fits so well into the disposable society mold.

Claims of Europeans practicing human sacrifice are unfounded nonsense. As far as orgies go, from my understanding some Romans were into it, but it was never wide spread. They just weren't nearly as hung up on sex as the Middle East is, and many other cultures, who thrived on slavery.

reply to post by poet1b


a! Human sacrifice was a common practice in the Gaelic cultures and their ancestors. You know, where your wicca friends get alot of their influences from. And while it was rare, Rome an Greeks also had their events of the same magnitude, until the Roman constitution made such illegal...at least for citizens.

Culture is subsidiary to technology. The culture of the early 90s was entirely upended by the internet and cell phones.

Culture is primarily shaped by rate of information flow. Technology totally controls this in the modern age.





For the sake of their green god, corporations will do extraordinary things to keep their system going. And plastic, my good sir, is a miracle and one of the greatest inventions of man. There are bad plastics certainly, but it is a very important product that has greatly aided all fields of industry.

Oil will be replaced in transportation, but it will always be need.


But hey also if you care to show me where planned obsolescence is outside of the fashion and school books, be my guest. I'm sure there's a few others, but it is not a universal constant.[


We cannot continue to consume the current energy levels under today's standards. But that's why suddenly there is a drive for solar, wind, low energy clean nuclear, and other power sources.

They will keep consuming. Because that is what they want for profit. Thy will simply find somewhere else to consume.

reply to post by Gorman91

Human sacrifice was a common practice in the Gaelic cultures and their ancestors.

Yeah, and the pope dines on human baby flesh on special occasions.

Why is it that the U.S. constantly innovates most of the worlds new tech, and art as well? If not in the U.S. than in Europe. Certain areas, almost exclusively liberal, consistently produce most of humanities innovations. Do you have any clue why this is?

Corporations will do anything to continue to survive, but that won't save them.

In the developing world, corporations are too large, outside of the range of their economies of scale. As the oil industry dies, so will the giant corporate world.

reply to post by poet1b

Yeah, and the pope dines on human baby flesh on special occasions.

Wouldn't be surprised if that's happened in the past. Your point?

Why is it that the U.S. constantly innovates most of the worlds new tech, and art as well? If not in the U.S. than in Europe. Certain areas, almost exclusively liberal, consistently produce most of humanities innovations. Do you have any clue why this is?

Hmm. Let me guess... Democracy? Well jeez. Then why did Islam do the same at its highpoint?

Corporations will do anything to continue to survive, but that won't save them.

That's a contradiction.

In the developing world, corporations are too large, outside of the range of their economies of scale. As the oil industry dies, so will the giant corporate world.

Or, you know, they'll just patent out new things an shift industries, like other corporations have.

But I already told you, oil is never going away. It is simply not going to be needed in transportation soon.

reply to post by Gorman91

Then why did Islam do the same at its highpoint?

Eat babies? Practice human sacrifice? Molest little girls?

Tech wise they did nothing.

No, it's not a contradiction. Corporations will do anything to survive, but they will fail.

The big corporations aren't capable of innovation. They get their high tech by buying smaller companies, but that is only a temporary solution.

We will still have oil, but transportation is oils primary market, and cost of acquisition will make it economically unfeasible at current consumption rates. No other market is capable of sustaining the massive oil infrastructure.

And control of the banks will not save the Arabs.

reply to post by poet1b

Eat babies? Practice human sacrifice? Molest little girls? Tech wise they did nothing.

I'd call architecture and art partially linked to technology. They did a lot of those things.

Also, you so sure that scientists haven't done the same?

I told you. All groups have had their goods and their bads.Hell I'll even give your Wicca fools a goo check list for when their resurgence began a hundred years ago. Certainly not the actual religion they stole it from though. Those ancients were f'd up.

No, it's not a contradiction. Corporations will do anything to survive, but they will fail.

That is a contradiction. nation states never fail. Once they have been established and firmly held, they simply go under different banners or get traded to other princes. It is very rare that a nation state is utterly destroyed. And that is usually done by a very powerful and brutal dictator.

The big corporations aren't capable of innovation. They get their high tech by buying smaller companies, but that is only a temporary solution.

*COUGH* Microsoft, Google, Apple, and the entire modern tech world *COUGH*.

We will still have oil, but transportation is oils primary market, and cost of acquisition will make it economically unfeasible at current consumption rates. No other market is capable of sustaining the massive oil infrastructure.

That's hardly true. You go to Titan, you get methane, you bring it back. Simple. Bacteria can aid in producing viable plastic materials from that.

Oil is an organic Hydrocarbon compound. This means it will always be producible. We simply take if from the easiest source, but it is most certainly not the only one. We also have other biological matter that's opening up opportunities. I was in a lab once where we researched petroleum alternatives found in gelatin and animal corpses. We made a lot of interesting things. A matter as good as some forms of concrete that was made of gelatin, dirt, plaster, and carbon materials. Another matter that was made primarily from ash and gelatin that was a kind of liquid wood.

These materials do not replace oil. They simply make the devastated environments that oil industry creates into fuel sources, construction materials, new environments, and environmentally viable. It has potential to close the loop that consumption-production-waste creates. Waste simply becomes a new consumable item.


See you're all up about bringing down the system, but you completely missed that we are simply making the system a closed loop so it can sustain itself. And that in turn means we can just carry it over to another place entirely, and eventually another planet.

If you'd like a view of the future, imagine a global economy in which some decades we consume oil and hydrocarbons, and other decades we consume ash and animal corpses, allowing the environment to rebuild itself. We process the matter so that it returns to a usable state, and then we consume it all over again. Heat energy from the sun simply allows this to go on.

It's sort of like a half-green half-industry view of the world.

I was required to do a crappy photoshop series on it, here. Here's the future. Backgrounds are from a video game. The source for the photshoped in bits follows. It's a biological self-organizing matrix of spheres.

i.imgur.com...
i.imgur.com...

The material:

i.imgur.com...
i.imgur.com...

Here's the pig brick.

i.imgur.com...

reply to post by Gorman91


Culturally speaking, Islam is one of the worse cultures in the history of mankind. Throughout their history they have survived through conquest and slavery. Islam has contributed very little to art, architecture, or science.

Enough components of Wica have survived, to re-start the religion, and compared to Islam what we know makes Wica a far superior culture to Islam.


Sure, nations states fail, as you describe corporations. Didn't you read about the recent demise of Kodak?

Microsoft is already in big trouble, and was never an innovator, always bought or stole their tech. Apple is doing very well right now, but a little over a decade ago, they were on the verge of going out. Google, and Microsoft and Apple, are babies compared to the other giant corps., who are mostly over a century old. Who knows if they will survive the major changes coming to humanity.

That's hardly true. You go to Titan, you get methane, you bring it back. Simple.

Maybe in about a 100 years, but the way things are going, highly unlikely. Remember "2001 A Space Odyssey"?

Where are we now? Nowhere close to what was predicted back in the seventies. Over the last 30 years our tech innovation has slowed. Sure we have computers, but this just continuing improvement of tech developed back in the sixties.

As a culture, we have allowed greed to swamp our vessel, and too many people like you want to ignore that we are sinking.


Bio-fuels will continue to provide us energy. Hemp and sugar are both very efficient sources for bio-fuels.

The thing is, any farmer with a little equipment can produce this fuel. No need for the huge equipment to drill, transport, refine, and distribute gasoline, and none of the major byproducts. This spells the end for the giant oil industry as we know it, and they know it as well, which is why they are not investing in new equipment.

We have the tech to produce lightweight electric/pneumatic hybrid vehicles that are simpler to make, and will last people a life time. The only thing stopping this from happening is the power if the ancient corps to control the markets.

Wind and water driven electric generators and and compressors could provide us with all the electricity needed in small towns and farms. It is the big cities and suburban sprawls that are not sustainable.

This is the vision of the founders of the U.S.. This is closer to how our nation primarily existed before the eighties. This is a closed loop system.

If you'd like a view of the future, imagine a global economy in which some decades we consume oil and hydrocarbons, and other decades we consume ash and animal corpses, allowing the environment to rebuild itself.

You still refuse to face the reality. Once we have finished using up the last giant reservoirs of naturally produced hydrocarbons, it is never coming back, or at least not in a time frame that made the last century possible.

Why consume animal corpses? That would be incredibly inefficient, considering that we have to feed and raise the animals before they can be corpses. We don't need the giant corp industry half.

Produce our fuels by growing crops that produce efficient sources. Harness the wind and the water, as well as the sun.

Most important, be a whole lot more efficient. That means getting rid of the giant corps who are holding us back.


More than anything, what the U.S. needs is people with vision, not blinded by greed and arrogance.

reply to post by poet1b

Culturally speaking, Islam is one of the worse cultures in the history of mankind. Throughout their history they have survived through conquest and slavery. Islam has contributed very little to art, architecture, or science.

Sure, inventing the modern mathematics system is no big deal. Oh, and the prototypes to modern abstract art? Not the big of a deal.

And that business with learning the Hagia Sophia and making it better isn't anything relevant.

Sure.

Enough components of Wica have survived, to re-start the religion, and compared to Islam what we know makes Wica a far superior culture to Islam.

Sounds like self righteousness.

Sure, nations states fail, as you describe corporations. Didn't you read about the recent demise of Kodak?

I said they occasionally fall didn't I? Even so, they live on in their own way.

Also, do they make oil?

Microsoft is already in big trouble, and was never an innovator, always bought or stole their tech. Apple is doing very well right now, but a little over a decade ago, they were on the verge of going out. Google, and Microsoft and Apple, are babies compared to the other giant corps., who are mostly over a century old. Who knows if they will survive the major changes coming to humanity.

Microsoft has innovated plenty, and the best thing about corporations is that they can trade their people. Valve, and many other video game companies, started at Microsoft. Either your ignoring this or biased.

Also their stock? Microsoft is worth a trillion Shell oil is worth 3 trillion. They're pretty much up there.

Maybe in about a 100 years, but the way things are going, highly unlikely. Remember "2001 A Space Odyssey"?

Haven't been paying attention to the times then.

The tech is all there. It's just not profitable yet. Hell I could tell you three different ways to go at ftl speeds that I've had some fun talking to rocket scientists at college We all agree that it's perfectly plausible to built a light ship today. It's just not profitable.

The thing is, any farmer with a little equipment can produce this fuel. No need for the huge equipment to drill, transport, refine, and distribute gasoline, and none of the major byproducts. This spells the end for the giant oil industry as we know it, and they know it as well, which is why they are not investing in new equipment.

That's not true. In order to convert it to anything industrial grade, you need a facility.

We have the tech to produce lightweight electric/pneumatic hybrid vehicles that are simpler to make, and will last people a life time. The only thing stopping this from happening is the power if the ancient corps to control the markets.

No it's because it's not profitable.

Wind and water driven electric generators and and compressors could provide us with all the electricity needed in small towns and farms. It is the big cities and suburban sprawls that are not sustainable.

Also untrue. Next gen solar and wind make it perfectly viable. You're probably still thinking giant bladed wind turbines. We already have more efficient things.

You still refuse to face the reality. Once we have finished using up the last giant reservoirs of naturally produced hydrocarbons, it is never coming back, or at least not in a time frame that made the last century possible.

You'd think that, and yet bacteria already now produce gasoline in the lab.

Why consume animal corpses? That would be incredibly inefficient, considering that we have to feed and raise the animals before they can be corpses. We don't need the giant corp industry half.

Because that's a lot of jobs...and a lot of bacon.

Produce our fuels by growing crops that produce efficient sources. Harness the wind and the water, as well as the sun. Most important, be a whole lot more efficient. That means getting rid of the giant corps who are holding us back.

Cities today are perfectly capable of that, and it is only you whose saying corporations are holding us back. I do think they are somewhat, but not nearly as much as you think.

I repeat what I said. There's going to come along a dictator whom goes against the corporations and nationalizes many of them, so that he can have more power. Probably within the next 40 years. Because what they have held back, will be punctured and released. But this will not be the end of the corporation.

More than anything, what the U.S. needs is people with vision, not blinded by greed and arrogance.

Those are not always mutually exclusive.

reply to post by Gorman91


Islam's over exaggerated contribution to mathematics talks about God and art. It is minimal at best. They always lack true scientific discovery. Too obsessed with god.

It's just not profitable.

And therein lies the whole problem. Progress solely for profit does not work.

The thing is, with modern tech., it doesn't take a whole lot to make good quality works, certainly not the levels of capital required during the dawn of industrialization.

These de-centralized industries will produce far more jobs, smaller business models, and more independence, which has been shown over and over again to be more efficient, and more productive. Small business models create more jobs.

Actually I am thinking of much smaller energy producing wind turbines. The giant wind turbines are attempts to keep the suburban sprawls going, and that is futility.

The direction we are heading towards is less centralization, and that is the only way forward. Centralized power structures are doomed to fail, and only the massive reserves of petroleum have kept centralized power structures in place. As the these giant oil reserves are depleted, that centralized control will collapse. It is not needed.


Greed and arrogance blinds one to reality. True vision requires one to throw off the vices of greed and arrogance.

They are mutually exclusive.

reply to post by poet1b

Islam's over exaggerated contribution to mathematics talks about God and art. It is minimal at best. They always lack true scientific discovery. Too obsessed with god.

Ha!

Up until the mid 20th century, God has been the primary motivator to discover.




You shouldn't think turbine at all. There are wind bands, wind cubes, wind towers, and many other things that make a city sustainable.

what you call suburban sprawl I call home. I admit it has its problems, but it can work, as with the new urbanist movement. The on;y thing wrong with the previous suburbia attempts was the idea of conformity.

Greed and arrogance blinds one to reality. True vision requires one to throw off the vices of greed and arrogance. They are mutually exclusive.

There have been plenty of arrogant people whom invented major things, like Steve Jobs. Plenty of compassionate people whom didn't care for money but got rich. There is no set parameter to what is good and evil, unless you're abusing people. And you can be arrogant and greedy, but not abusive.



Profit is the current god of the commons. Nobody can change that, but you can work with it to change something. To those ends, it will change. But the corporation, the dollar, and greed will always be here.



I really do not see decentralization occurring anywhere. And yea small business is great, but it doesn't progress very well.

You call the big guys lacking imagination and creativity, but I just don't see it. There are issues with who gets the credit, but those issues will soon be dealt with.

The ideal is a state limit for corporations. They are bound to one state, and only one state. The global corporation is a problem. Force them to break themselves into pieces, and you have global small business. Small in the sense of a unified state-wide business architecture that cannot go elsewhere. Trade elsewhere but that's it.

reply to post by Gorman91


Religion has been the primary force against technology and advancement.


Yes, all forms of tech that harnesses the wind should be explored, especially on a warming planet.

The problem with Suburbia is that the whole infrastructure is horribly inefficient. Suburbia was designed to waste energy to keep the energy companies profitable. That is the problem with profit as a motivator, it encourages massive inefficiency. Yes, most of us have been corralled in these suburban sprawls like cattle.

Small businesses and small corporations are the drivers of innovation. The big corps survive through corporate cannibalism, eating the smaller corporations for profit, all enabled by our crooked banking system and the manipulation of the money supply.

Jobs was best at finding innovative people, with whom he shared vision. He was not the innovator, and he wanted to bring down the giant corps..

The ideal is a state limit for corporations. They are bound to one state, and only one state. The global corporation is a problem. Force them to break themselves into pieces, and you have global small business. Small in the sense of a unified state-wide business architecture that cannot go elsewhere. Trade elsewhere but that's it.

I think that only natural social and economic evolution is capable of breaking down these giant corps. Fortunately, this is coming. The system is collapsing from its own weight. They are too big to survive.

reply to post by poet1b

Religion has been the primary force against technology and advancement.

Not really. There's three incidents that come to mind, and all of them did not last, so therefore the merely were an annoyance, not anything really:

The Monkey Trials

Heliocentric views

Embryonic research.



That's about all I can think of.

The problem with Suburbia is that the whole infrastructure is horribly inefficient. Suburbia was designed to waste energy to keep the energy companies profitable. That is the problem with profit as a motivator, it encourages massive inefficiency. Yes, most of us have been corralled in these suburban sprawls like cattle.

No, it was designed to provide a large number of soldiers an gdp growth to carry out a cold world war against communism.

That's all it was designed for. Everything else was merely incidentally. Like a mosquito to new blood.

Small businesses and small corporations are the drivers of innovation. The big corps survive through corporate cannibalism, eating the smaller corporations for profit, all enabled by our crooked banking system and the manipulation of the money supply.

WOAH THERE

You never said anything about small corporations.

I'm all for small corporations. Did you miss the whole "I love teddy Roosevelt and the turn of the century"

When a corporation becomes a problem, you take an axe and behead it. Simple as that. It's smaller parts go on perfectly well without the head.

Jobs was best at finding innovative people, with whom he shared vision. He was not the innovator, and he wanted to bring down the giant corps..

Not really considering he became one. Gates was just the same. They were somewhat friends at times. They were simply goo leaders, with a few mistakes.

I think that only natural social and economic evolution is capable of breaking down these giant corps. Fortunately, this is coming. The system is collapsing from its own weight. They are too big to survive.

Not the smaller ones. And like I said, that's ample opportunity for a dictator to come about. It is coming. A military leader with a blade in one hand and the necks of giant corps in the next, ready to sacrifice them to the tree of liberty and let their blood set the people free.

reply to post by Gorman91


Sorry, but suburbia was designed to enrich the ICBs, serving the same purpose as the cold war.

There is no opportunity for a global dictator, and the coming changes will offer even less opportunity. The short lived power of the ICBs is already falling apart. Economies can not run on debt, and so centralized power will also fall apart.

reply to post by poet1b


What happens if you change the value of the dollar to how much gdp, or hell, how much work you do?


There's many, and I mean MANY, tricks up their sleeves.

reply to post by Gorman91


Those tricks will not save them.

An economy can not run on debt.

Earnings should be based on accomplishment, not the amount of work done.

We already produce more than we can consume, and that is one of our biggest problems.

reply to post by poet1b

Those tricks will not save them. An economy can not run on debt.

All it would take is an amendment that states the United States is a different country now. Idk, maybe you could stage a collapse of the congress, and then bring it back under a military leader. We can then say the debt doesn't exist, because we are a new nation.

Debt is just a promise. One that has no guarantee of being fulfilled.

Earnings should be based on accomplishment, not the amount of work done.

Why? Most people will never accomplish anything in their lives, and only a very small part of the population is actually creative. If it was based on accomplishment, who says what an accomplishment is? Is marriage an accomplishment? Can we get paid for getting married?

It should be based on how much work you do. Because work is set by someone whom wants it, not some ambiguous goal.

We already produce more than we can consume, and that is one of our biggest problems.

What do you think will happen when we get to space?

reply to post by Gorman91


The easier answer would be to create a separate Fed Treas currency that will only be used within the U.S.. Then we can float our currency like everyone else for trade advantages.

What we need is a proposition system so that the public can vote on federal laws. It has worked pretty good out here in CA.

Most people will never accomplish anything in their lives, and only a very small part of the population is actually creative.

Not true on either account. Most people accomplish a great deal in their lives. It is the workers who have built everything that is our nation. From the beginning, giant corporations have been far more of a burden and have done more to reduce accomplishment, for the greedy interests who hide behind the mask.

And yes, getting married is most often a considerable accomplishment, staying married is an even bigger accomplishment, and it pays off tremendously.

People are also very creative. Only a small number gets recognized by the giant corporate controlled media, and that is only because they serve the interests of the giant corporate controlled media.

It is the ICBs who hold our nation back from advancement.