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Logical Proofs of Infinite External Consciousness

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posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 05:32 PM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


You confuse "observer or apparatus that is external to the quantum system" with "consciousness".




posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


You confuse "observer or apparatus that is external to the quantum system" with "consciousness".


Feel free to explain how something can be observed without consciousness or how an apparatus to observe can be created without consciousness.

I'm all ears.

Specifically, how something can be observed BEFORE matter exists. Remember, if you say that an atom can observe an atom, what caused the first atom to be observed so that it could come into existence?



edit on 20-1-2012 by mnemeth1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 08:05 PM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Are you serious? The interpretation is about an experiment, and in this experiment something is observed. That doesn't mean the phenomena doesn't happen when there is no experiment going on and nothing is observed by a conscious mind. Basically what you are saying is that you need a conscious mind to do an experiment. Well yes sure. But that has nothing to do with QM.



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Are you serious? The interpretation is about an experiment, and in this experiment something is observed. That doesn't mean the phenomena doesn't happen when there is no experiment going on and nothing is observed by a conscious mind. Basically what you are saying is that you need a conscious mind to do an experiment. Well yes sure. But that has nothing to do with QM.


That is not what QM says, which obviously means you disagree with QM.

If you disagree with QM, that's perfectly fine. However, don't tell me that I'm wrong when I'm reading it to you right from the freaking wiki page.



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 09:09 PM
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Here's my own proof to my self that Consciousness is 'external'.

And here is how I know that Consciousness is Immutable and Infinite, but I am not sure if it will make much sense to any one else---I'll try to explain it.

If Consciousness was in our brains, or inside of the body, was 'owned' by a brain, then when someone dies, we would see a big empty space in the 'fabric' of Life. In other words, the person would take a chunk of Awareness or Consciousness with him when his brain stops working. Because if we deduce that Consciousness is 'in the brain' then it would have to made of 'something' material, or finite or limited. and obviously Awareness, Consciousness is not limited, at least to me, I see It is not containable, not 'in' anything, not made 'from' a brain, and therefore It is Unbound and Free ---

All appearances that we call 'things' are within My Self-Awareness. "My" becomes One Awareness, not a bunch of little separate 'awareness's'' peering out the a 'head', living inside a bag of flesh.

Now I see that Consciousness is Primary, First Source and It seems to me, it is our very sense of Self, there is only One Self which is the same as saying there is One Consciousness. All 'bodies' exist with This Living Selfhood. It seems clear to me that we cannot feel or be a sense of Identity without being Aware, they seem to entwined, or really, I say they are the same thing. Consciousness and Identity are One.

Since Consciousness is not residing inside the brain, then when the brain dies and the body turns to dust, we do not see a big empty place in space.

Really, 'space' and consciousness are the same thing, but that is not where I was going with this.

Awareness/Identity does not die, does not go with the body, does not 'go away' with the body, or turn to dust and rot with body-form-matter.

As I say, if Awareness was in the brain, there would be big empty holes in space where "the person" took "his awareness" with him when died. And that just is not the case!

Ok, that is my stab at trying to explain how I see it. I know that for me, once I really realized all this, it became 'self evident' to me and now this realization brings a great sense of liberation, freedom and joy.




edit on 20-1-2012 by Sweetmystery because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-1-2012 by Sweetmystery because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 11:16 PM
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Originally posted by The GUT
Consciousness is the game-changer for the thinking person imo. Science generally sidesteps the issue as the implications don't compute with the current models they've bought into. It's so elusive to that mindset that most ignore it...or attempt to explain it away.

I've come to believe that consciousness is the one and only "indivisible" thing in the universe. Consciousness, to me, is one of the main reasons that a conscious "God" is indeed plausible.

Superior OP, thanks for sharing.


Consciousness is not invisible though. While scientists have yet to locate an "observer" within the human brain it is still accepted that our conscious is made up of the collective parts of our brain, mainly the massive complexity of interconnected neurons, hundreds of millions of which are required for such a simple task as bending one finger. Our thoughts are very physical things and if you had a machine capable of seeing every neuron and able to read their electric pulses then you could theoretically read a persons thoughts.

The ability to choose makes us masters of the universe. We can freely change and interact with the matter of reality. There is so much we might never know. Quantum physicists would say that m-theory is plausible and there are multiple dimensions or realities occurring everywhere at the same time. Is the elusive consciousness connected to other planes of existence that follow "universal laws" unlike we could ever possibly experience? Is this universe what must exist in order for reality to be convincing? There is seemingly so much detail that you could go infinitely inward or infinitely outward and never hit an end. The subject of trying to understand what reality is always makes me feel weird inside.



posted on Jan, 20 2012 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by Sweetmystery
 


Consciousness is absolutely limited. A gold fish could never possibly begin to understand what the universe is, or even the Sun or Earth. They have extremely simple brains, with an extremely simple consciousness. The most difficult function of a simplistic creatures brain is discovering a stable way of finding nutrients. We humans however, are believed to have the most highly evolved brains on Earth. Unlike many creatures known to exist, humans have gained the awareness that they are existing in space and time, although every living thing shares the ability to experience reality.

I think everybody just needs some sort of psychology lesson before participating in threads related to consciousness and functions of the brain. Thoughts, dreams and what-not are literally actually taking place in 3-dimensional space inside your brain, they are a chorus of hundreds of billions of interconnected neurons firing thousands of rapid volleys of electric pulses per second. We're all just clumps of atoms moving through space, interacting with the forces of the universe.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by Sweetmystery
Here's my own proof to my self that Consciousness is 'external'.

And here is how I know that Consciousness is Immutable and Infinite, but I am not sure if it will make much sense to any one else---I'll try to explain it.

If Consciousness was in our brains, or inside of the body, was 'owned' by a brain, then when someone dies, we would see a big empty space in the 'fabric' of Life. In other words, the person would take a chunk of Awareness or Consciousness with him when his brain stops working. Because if we deduce that Consciousness is 'in the brain' then it would have to made of 'something' material, or finite or limited. and obviously Awareness, Consciousness is not limited, at least to me, I see It is not containable, not 'in' anything, not made 'from' a brain, and therefore It is Unbound and Free ---

All appearances that we call 'things' are within My Self-Awareness. "My" becomes One Awareness, not a bunch of little separate 'awareness's'' peering out the a 'head', living inside a bag of flesh.

Now I see that Consciousness is Primary, First Source and It seems to me, it is our very sense of Self, there is only One Self which is the same as saying there is One Consciousness. All 'bodies' exist with This Living Selfhood. It seems clear to me that we cannot feel or be a sense of Identity without being Aware, they seem to entwined, or really, I say they are the same thing. Consciousness and Identity are One.

Since Consciousness is not residing inside the brain, then when the brain dies and the body turns to dust, we do not see a big empty place in space.

Really, 'space' and consciousness are the same thing, but that is not where I was going with this.

Awareness/Identity does not die, does not go with the body, does not 'go away' with the body, or turn to dust and rot with body-form-matter.

As I say, if Awareness was in the brain, there would be big empty holes in space where "the person" took "his awareness" with him when died. And that just is not the case!

Ok, that is my stab at trying to explain how I see it. I know that for me, once I really realized all this, it became 'self evident' to me and now this realization brings a great sense of liberation, freedom and joy.




edit on 20-1-2012 by Sweetmystery because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-1-2012 by Sweetmystery because: (no reason given)

We die. There is no heaven. There is no afterworld, or tear in the fabric of time. You will only be missed by humans. So be kind to friends and family.
Get over it.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 12:17 AM
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Originally posted by jtap66
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


How can there be an "afterlife" is conciousness is eternal? "After" what?

Again, say there's an afterlife. Say there's something beyond this realm. That still doesn't in any way point to a sentient creator.


A huge part of egyptian culture was that they believed humans are spiritual beings having an earth-experience... that we are incarnated here but our souls can go beyond the earthly plane. So the OP makes sense if you replace "afterlife" with "earth-experience."



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 12:29 AM
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If you watch this Ted Talk
Jill Bolte Taylor got a research opportunity few brain scientists would wish for: She had a massive stroke, and watched as her brain functions -- motion, speech, self-awareness -- shut down one by one. An astonishing story.
I think this ties in very well with this thread and I think the solution posed is obvious.
Enjoy,
brice



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 12:36 AM
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In case you don't get the tie in, I am referring to her experience in the right brain existence which she calls lala land and her inability to tell where her body ended and space began.
brice



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1

Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Are you serious? The interpretation is about an experiment, and in this experiment something is observed. That doesn't mean the phenomena doesn't happen when there is no experiment going on and nothing is observed by a conscious mind. Basically what you are saying is that you need a conscious mind to do an experiment. Well yes sure. But that has nothing to do with QM.


That is not what QM says, which obviously means you disagree with QM.

If you disagree with QM, that's perfectly fine. However, don't tell me that I'm wrong when I'm reading it to you right from the freaking wiki page.


Qm doesnt say what you purpose it to say.
You cannot link anything.
Qm doesnt deal with consciousness AT ALL.
Nowever on wikipage does it say what you say it says.
You just hallucinate words at your own will.
I have debunked all things you quoted, by showing you do not understand even the most simple words, concepts.
Go on, start again.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 01:02 AM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 





3. Given that we have established that consciousness is either infinite and external to the brain, QM is wrong, or all processes are deterministic, we know that any attempt to explain consciousness as being local to the brain must do so using only deterministic biochemical processes. If biochemical processes are truly the source of consciousness, then you have no free will because all chemical processes are deterministic in nature. If this is the case, then you aren’t actually choosing to read this article. Nature has pre-destined you to read this article. Your life has no meaning since you don’t actually control it. It’s either that or consciousness is infinite, eternal and external to the brain and this physical universe.


This sounds more like whining than logic.. my friend.

I love you because of the very determisitic properties that you find so disgusting. I love you because i know life. I would hope that you would love me too and be willing to experiance all of what infinity has to offer together. The variables around me they have given birth to me and i am greatfull for the sight that i have, as should you be.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 01:27 AM
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Originally posted by Dystopiaphiliac
Consciousness is not invisible though. While scientists have yet to locate an "observer" within the human brain it is still accepted that our conscious is made up of the collective parts of our brain, mainly the massive complexity of interconnected neurons, hundreds of millions of which are required for such a simple task as bending one finger. Our thoughts are very physical things and if you had a machine capable of seeing every neuron and able to read their electric pulses then you could theoretically read a persons thoughts.

That sounds good, but it totally overlooks and ignores our facility for abstraction. Abstraction demands an explanation that trumps a purely physically process and is the key component that defines "consciousness."

Physically explain, Dystopiaphiliac, our unique--in the animal world anyways--ability for abstraction other than the circular and self-referring pseudo-explanation of "we have brain matter and neurons right so it must be a physical process." "Physical process" & "abstraction" are seemingly incompatible by nature and definition--see what I'm sayin.?

I like your brain though and you ask yourself excellent questions, but please deeply consider the above. Peace.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 01:31 AM
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Originally posted by Dystopiaphiliac
reply to post by Sweetmystery
 


Consciousness is absolutely limited. A gold fish could never possibly begin to understand what the universe is, or even the Sun or Earth. They have extremely simple brains, with an extremely simple consciousness. The most difficult function of a simplistic creatures brain is discovering a stable way of finding nutrients. We humans however, are believed to have the most highly evolved brains on Earth. Unlike many creatures known to exist, humans have gained the awareness that they are existing in space and time, although every living thing shares the ability to experience reality.

I think everybody just needs some sort of psychology lesson before participating in threads related to consciousness and functions of the brain. Thoughts, dreams and what-not are literally actually taking place in 3-dimensional space inside your brain, they are a chorus of hundreds of billions of interconnected neurons firing thousands of rapid volleys of electric pulses per second. We're all just clumps of atoms moving through space, interacting with the forces of the universe.



reply to post by Dystopiaphiliac
 


First off, Look, if you don't like my participation because I have not studied psychology or whatever science, then just skip my posts. I said my post was coming from my own personal experiences and I have proven what I know to myself, not to anyone else. I just thought I'd share what I have discovered.

Next point in participation with what you wrote: Well, yes if you think that the fish is outside of awareness then it functions as you say. But I think otherwise. I think the fish is an aspect of the Living Light of Consciousness that is being 'fish'. When we realize the world experience is subjective and not objective, then the fish is an aspect of One Infinite Mind, or Consciousness, and that particular appearance is Mind expressing Its 'fish-ness'.

Infinite Mind being the qualities and attributes of 'fish' expresses "fish-ness" as a creature that does not think about the Pleiades. Being a philosopher is not the job of fish. Fish is being what it is supposed to be, a fish. All because Consciousness is Divine Intelligence, Infinite Intelligence, thus It knows what fish is and what Mr.Smart Man is. And Lives the differences quite well.

That you can know a fish exists and has no big thoughts on things is brought to you by Awareness, nothing is outside of this Awareness, you cannot avoid or get away from being Conscious, whether it is to tell me that a 'fish' has a small brain and you have a large one, your words are being read here within awareness, no mistake about that.

You are aware of your dreams because you are the Awareness that includes a man telling us of his dreams and all the neurons and electrical connections that make him dream. Only by way of an Unbound, Unconfined, Awareness can I be aware of your words written here about what you think. You and I are both reading this by way of One Single Consciousness that does not belong to any 'body'.

And, I am not here to argue, I just wanted to share my own insights on the subject. I have no desire to convince you of any thing. I just wanted to say that I have found for my self that everything happens within Awareness and that Awareness is not harmed, or hurt or changed no matter what goes on within Its Presence.

If you will note; when you are sick and not feeling well, does your consciousness get sick? When we see a polluted river, is the awareness that sees that river polluted? When a fire burns a forest down, is awareness of the burning forest burnt down? No, Consciousness is not harmed or hindered or stopped, or changed, despite what ever the scene within this Awareness going on. Awareness is obviously not 'subject to' man and his shenanigans.

Man cannot tame it, hold it, capture It, hurt It, or control Awareness in any way. Yes, you can control your thinking, but thinking is not Consciousness, thinking is and must always be within Consciousness. Yes, there are dumber people and smarter ones, and fish that just eat and swim and don't think at all, but I know, for me, I could not be aware of smart people and dumb people and fish and rivers and trees if Consciousness was not Here and Now fully Being All That Is.

This Life we live is bit like a TV, the appearances on the screen have no power to 'damage' the TV set when there is gun fight scene on the show we are watching. Life is Consciousness Itself and is unaffected by the passing images within Its Being.

Life is not an objective experience. It is subjective, there is only One Living Consciousness. Nothing exists outside of This Living Presence.
edit on 21-1-2012 by Sweetmystery because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-1-2012 by Sweetmystery because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by Dystopiaphiliac
reply to post by Sweetmystery
 


Consciousness is absolutely limited. A gold fish could never possibly begin to understand what the universe is, or even the Sun or Earth. They have extremely simple brains, with an extremely simple consciousness. The most difficult function of a simplistic creatures brain is discovering a stable way of finding nutrients. We humans however, are believed to have the most highly evolved brains on Earth. Unlike many creatures known to exist, humans have gained the awareness that they are existing in space and time, although every living thing shares the ability to experience reality.

I think everybody just needs some sort of psychology lesson before participating in threads related to consciousness and functions of the brain. Thoughts, dreams and what-not are literally actually taking place in 3-dimensional space inside your brain, they are a chorus of hundreds of billions of interconnected neurons firing thousands of rapid volleys of electric pulses per second. We're all just clumps of atoms moving through space, interacting with the forces of the universe.

Consciousness is not limited.
It is either present or not.
You are confusing it with intelligence, which in turn presupposes conscousness.
And intelligence takes many forms. Each life form is adapted to the type of intelligence it needs to be the best at what it does.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 02:36 AM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


I always love your threads Mnemeth....

don't really have time to read more than the OP at this point, but I wanted to chime in.

from my beliefs, I totally agree with you that consciousness is not only a force that originates from outside our universe, but it is also the driving force that created our universe to begin with. The idea of heaven is the place we all came from before we decided to experience life in this universe.

It's a bit late here, so I'll be checking back in tomorrow and reading up on what others have to add to the topic.

S&F
edit on 21-1-2012 by kalisdad because: corrected spelling



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 02:45 AM
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Originally posted by kalisdad
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


I always love your threads Mnemth....

don't really have time to read more than the OP at this point, but I wanted to chime in.

from my beliefs, I totally agree with you that consciousness is not only a force that originates from outside our universe, but it is also the driving force that created our universe to begin with. The idea of heaven is the place we all came from before we decided to experience life in this universe.

It's a bit late here, so I'll be checking back in tomorrow and reading up on what others have to add to the topic.

S&F

1 question:
Why does it have to be outside the universe?
Why cant it be the universe?
Or be a part of the universe.
I understand you wrote believe, so i am not mocking you, i am just showing alternative paths.
I write this so we can dialogus.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 03:33 AM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


So where exactly does QM say the phenomena does and can not and happen in nature? Where does it say it only happens in experimental conditions? And even if you do require a conscious mind to build the apparatus to make the phenomena happen, that doesn't mean it has any deeper meaning. You also require a conscious mind to make a brick.
edit on 21-1-2012 by -PLB- because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 03:35 AM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 




"it demonstrates that there can be no local hidden variable theory that is compatible with the predictions of quantum mechanics"


Indeed, thats Bell theorem:


The theorem has great importance for physics and the philosophy of science, as it implies that quantum physics must necessarily violate either the principle of locality or counterfactual definiteness.


CFD: the ability to assume the existence of objects, and properties of objects, even when they have not been measured (when nothing interacts with a particle, does it still exist? - or scientific realism, or hidden variables in QM).

I find it far more logical to sacrifice locality (in case it does not lead to practical FTL, because its subjected to quantum constraints, so it does not violate relativity - the only motivation we have for cosmic information speed limit) than to assume things do not exist when they are not measured (sacrifice scientific realism).

en.wikipedia.org...



Copenhagen is subjective and implies conscious observation is required for the collapse of the wave function.


No. It implies any observation, even unconscious one (better word would be interaction) collapses the wave function. Quantum observer is does not have to be conscious in Copenhagen interpretation.

en.wikipedia.org...

Copenhagen interpretation - Observer role: None.

Many minds interpretation, or consciousness causes collapse interpretation is the only that requires conscious observation to collapse the wave function. And its unscientific, since it does not follow methodological naturalism.



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