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Logical Proofs of Infinite External Consciousness

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posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 03:45 AM
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Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by mnemeth1
 




"it demonstrates that there can be no local hidden variable theory that is compatible with the predictions of quantum mechanics"


Indeed, thats Bell theorem:


The theorem has great importance for physics and the philosophy of science, as it implies that quantum physics must necessarily violate either the principle of locality or counterfactual definiteness.


Yes!

CFD: the ability to assume the existence of objects, and properties of objects, even when they have not been measured (when nothing interacts with a particle, does it still exist? - or scientific realism, or hidden variables in QM).

I find it far more logical to sacrifice locality (in case it does not lead to practical FTL, because its subjected to quantum constraints, so it does not violate relativity - the only motivation we have for cosmic information speed limit) than to assume things do not exist when they are not measured (sacrifice scientific realism).

en.wikipedia.org...



Copenhagen is subjective and implies conscious observation is required for the collapse of the wave function.


No. It implies any observation, even unconscious one (better word would be interaction) collapses the wave function. Quantum observer is does not have to be conscious in Copenhagen interpretation.

en.wikipedia.org...

Copenhagen interpretation - Observer role: None.

Many minds interpretation, or consciousness causes collapse interpretation is the only that requires conscious observation to collapse the wave function. And its unscientific, since it does not follow methodological naturalism.

And even if you take the many word theory as fact and stretch it to its limits (or even infi ity) is in no was implies a higher intelligence or concousness. All it implies is that there are many worlds of conscousness.
I fail to see how this proves there is an origo kr an above point for concousness.
It says no such thing.
In fact the whole idea is akin to shiva, or whatever indian god, who has infinate faces.
So what?
It is a fact of a theory streched to max. No inplications on higher reality/ creator, etc.




posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 06:52 AM
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if there was a creator how was the creator created? was it the chicken first or the egg? put it this way - we know nothing, some people just THINK they do.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 07:33 AM
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Originally posted by kutso
if there was a creator how was the creator created? was it the chicken first or the egg? put it this way - we know nothing, some people just THINK they do.

we do in fact know some things, its more that some people believe they know everything. we should be aware of the limitations of our knowledge. nothing wrong with that. in fact a smart person once told me, a smart person doesn't characterize himself by what he knows, but by being aware of what he doesn't know. i live by those words, myself.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by kalisdad
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


I always love your threads Mnemeth....

don't really have time to read more than the OP at this point, but I wanted to chime in.

from my beliefs, I totally agree with you that consciousness is not only a force that originates from outside our universe, but it is also the driving force that created our universe to begin with. The idea of heaven is the place we all came from before we decided to experience life in this universe.

It's a bit late here, so I'll be checking back in tomorrow and reading up on what others have to add to the topic.

S&F
edit on 21-1-2012 by kalisdad because: corrected spelling


Essentially, that is what I was saying, but in my own words. I just think it is fairly obvious, if you really look, that consciousness is before time. Consciousness is the Light of Intelligence before or faster than speed of limited light (matter-space),

Soon the scientists will discover for certain that there is Light faster than light, and this will help us to get out of the stagnating, limited, linear, objective view of Life.

Life, Eternal Light, Unbound Knowing, Illimitable Information, is the Source of All that we see and all we do not see and all that is. There is only one Mind going on here, in Reality. And we are getting closer to uncovering What Is. Light is Information and Information is Knowing and knowing is Intelligence and Intelligence must have consciousness in order to be "what Mind Is".

I saw that "Bolte" video of her story is was quite beautiful and, for me, confirms what I have been coming to understand for my self.

Here is another one you might enjoy:

www.skeptiko.com...

Hope you like this one, Dr. Eben is a neurosurgeon and he experienced something he never expected.




edit on 21-1-2012 by Sweetmystery because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 10:31 AM
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Originally posted by BBalazs

Originally posted by kutso
if there was a creator how was the creator created? was it the chicken first or the egg? put it this way - we know nothing, some people just THINK they do.

we do in fact know some things, its more that some people believe they know everything. we should be aware of the limitations of our knowledge. nothing wrong with that. in fact a smart person once told me, a smart person doesn't characterize himself by what he knows, but by being aware of what he doesn't know. i live by those words, myself.


I do not think that to know means we have to be sure of something, it just means we 'know' something. For example, you know you are here reading this right now. You know you are sitting in the room and that you are seeing, heariing, listening to the rain, and maybe hungry, or thinking about that second cup of coffee or restless or annoyed by my posts---or whatever it is you know, but you do know things.

We know a lot of things. Do we know the Fact of Truth behind these things we know? not yet, but the veil is thinning quickly now. And when we know, we will know we know, of course, that is Life, Life is the action of knowing.

We are, each of us in his own way, realizing we are not living in an objective world of time-space-matter, we are living a world that appears to be that, but is really a Living Mind and the 'things' are images of Light, appearing solid. The images are part of the Infinite Mind that has no beginning and therefore no end. The human limited mind set, trapped in concepts that are hard to brake through, that limited view cannot see very well how there can be an Isness, a Beingness, a Living Light of Intelligence (which includes this very moment we are here and now) we find it hard to grasp that there is a Reality that has no source, has no beginning. But, it can be done. and when we do, and "our" awareness expands.

But think about the principle of math or the alphabet, the principle exists in perfect, unseen and immaterial and yet is very real and useful and works even despite if we cannot spell or do not know how to write, or erase all the letters---the principle never goes away and cannot be erased. Same with the principle of arithmetic; I can add it up and get the wrong answer, but the fact of the real answer remains as it is, undisturbed by the wrong answer on the chalk board. There is Fact, a Living Principle that is Here despite the mistaken beliefs we live by, and It does not change no matter how we think.
edit on 21-1-2012 by Sweetmystery because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-1-2012 by Sweetmystery because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 10:36 AM
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Your point # 2 is very clever. You should read about Eugene Wigner who said similar things about consciousness and QM. in fact, the new book about Hugh Everett The Many Worlds of Hugh Everett III: Multiple Universes, Mutual Assured Destruction, and the Meltdown of a Nuclear Family, mentions this and Wigner.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by Sweetmystery

Originally posted by BBalazs

Originally posted by kutso
if there was a creator how was the creator created? was it the chicken first or the egg? put it this way - we know nothing, some people just THINK they do.

we do in fact know some things, its more that some people believe they know everything. we should be aware of the limitations of our knowledge. nothing wrong with that. in fact a smart person once told me, a smart person doesn't characterize himself by what he knows, but by being aware of what he doesn't know. i live by those words, myself.


I do not think that to know means we have to be sure of something, it just means we 'know' something. For example, you know you are here reading this right now. You know you are sitting in the room and that you are seeing, heariing, listening to the rain, and maybe hungry, or thinking about that second cup of coffee or restless or annoyed by my posts---or whatever it is you know, but you do know things.

We know a lot of things. Do we know the Fact of Truth behind these things we know? not yet, but the veil is thinning quickly now. And when we know, we will know we know, of course, that is Life, Life is the action of knowing.

We are, each of us in his own way, realizing we are not living in an objective world of time-space-matter, we are living a world that appears to be that, but is really a Living Mind and the 'things' are images of Light, appearing solid. The images are part of the Infinite Mind that has no beginning and therefore no end. The human limited mind set, trapped in concepts that are hard to brake through, that limited view cannot see very well how there can be an Isness, a Beingness, a Living Light of Intelligence (which includes this very moment we are here and now) we find it hard to grasp that there is a Reality that has no source, has no beginning. But, it can be done. and when we do, and "our" awareness expands.

But think about the principle of math or the alphabet, the principle exists in perfect, unseen and immaterial and yet is very real and useful and works even despite if we cannot spell or do not know how to write, or erase all the letters---the principle never goes away and cannot be erased. Same with the principle of arithmetic; I can add it up and get the wrong answer, but the fact of the real answer remains as it is, undisturbed by the wrong answer on the chalk board. There is Fact, a Living Principle that is Here despite the mistaken beliefs we live by, and It does not change no matter how we think.
edit on 21-1-2012 by Sweetmystery because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-1-2012 by Sweetmystery because: (no reason given)

we do you have to project this infinite outside mind thing?
I pretty much agree with what you write, but I personally don't see a need for it.
Life is creation, that all folks. no need for an infinite mind or whatever in my books.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 02:23 PM
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reply to post by Maslo
 

I agree with you. The brain estimates, it doesn't KNOW. Highly compressed information.

The OP is just a wishcaster, like so many others. Everybody wants to deny death. To deny the suffering and loss in this world. They want to believe in an after-life. They want to believe in a supreme ruler. They want to believe in a greater meaning for all of this. They have to believe. They must. This is non-negotiable. I could sit here and talk with a wall and it's more productive than this. What one has to understand is that what's behind religion is behind a lot of other things. It's cognitive dissonance. Most people, if not all, cannot absorb the truth of this reality. We're all mortal. There's no after-life. Our local reality is deterministic. This is the classical world in physics. At the quantum level, there's more unpredictability and if free will could ever be said to exist it would exist at that scale, not on the classical scale. People react violently to this idea in a very predictable way. To prevent the before-mentioned cognitive dissonance, they deny and create dramas and faiths and every imaginable excuse to escape the truth.

The good thing about determinism is that you don't know you don't have free will. The best case scenario is that quantum scale phenomena prevent a perfect from of determinism, but it's only a small victory because these fluctuations happen to be -outside- of our control. And that means we're just passengers. What will the fluctuations do next? Stay tuned and find out.
edit on 21-1-2012 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by jonnywhite
reply to post by Maslo
 

I agree with you. The brain estimates, it doesn't KNOW.

The OP is just a wishcaster, like so many others. Everybody wants to deny death. To deny the suffering and loss in this world. They want to believe in an after-life. They want to believe in a supreme ruler. They want to believe in a greater meaning for all of this. They have to believe. They must. This is non-negotiable. I could sit here and talk with a wall and it's more productive than this. What one has to understand is that what's behind religion is behind a lot of other things. It's cognitive dissonance. Most people, if not all, cannot absorb the truth of this reality. We're all mortal. There's no after-life. Our local reality is deterministic. This is the classical world in physics. At the quantum level, there's more unpredictability and if free will could ever be said to exist it would exist at that scale not on the classical scale. People react violently to this idea in a very predictable way. To prevent the before-mentioned cognitive dissonance, they deny and create dramas and faiths and every imaginable excuse to escape the truth.

The good thing about determinism is that you don't know you don't have free will. The best case scenario is that quantum scale phenomena prevent a perfect from of determinism, but it's only a small victory because these fluctuations just happen to be outside of our control. And that means we're just along for the ride. What will the fluctuations do next? Stay tuned and find out.
edit on 21-1-2012 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)


Cognitive dissonance:-) these people will enver get it. They have the faith virus.
However i dispute the fact that you mix up deterministic with predetermined.
They are not the same!



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1

Originally posted by jtap66
I was with you, until you made the leap that somehow infinite conciousness translated into a sentient god, and managed to make this an atheists vs. theists thing.

How do you make the jump from endless conciousness to a confirmed existence of a creator?


If consciousness is infinite and eternal, then there is an afterlife. This non-local consciousness implies a creator to bring consciousness into existence in the first place in its non-local location.

I would also suggest that a Big Bang type event also implies the existence of a creator to bring that into existence as well, but physicists like to dispute this point by using QM interpretations. Obviously by refuting QM as a mechanism, I am demonstrating the need for a creator.


The concept of Heaven/Nirvana/Elysium is based outside of our universe, in a sense we are returning home. If our universe was indeed created, it would have taken an infinite amount of energy to have done this. The only source of inifinite energy that I(from personal experience and my beliefs) know of is consciousness. The amount of energy from all the consciousness in our universe far outweights the amount of matter.

In a Big Bang scenario,. I believe that our creator is the combined energy from all the consciousness in our universe. We consciously decided to live life in a physical existence, and that act was the catalyst that created our universe.

this goes with saying that consciousness is more than the human experience, and from my personal experience and through testimony from others with NDE/OOBE there is a lot we don't know about this external existence.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1

Originally posted by jtap66
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


It's a simplistic argument, but the big bang wouldn't need a creator. If a creator exists, who created the creator? If the creator requires no creator, then neither does the big bang. Neither does consiouness. The concept of a beginning and an end is as much a human creation as time itself.

Conciousness is eternal, in my humble opinion. This incarnation of it may end, but it will evolve and move on. No creator required.


This is a philosophical debate I enjoy because it assumes at least one component of what I already know to be true, which is that consciousness is eternal and external.

What brought a creation of consciousness into being is something that is unknowable from our current perspective as incarnate humans. We must die to know the answer to that question with any certainty, but I don't believe consciousness simply divided and sprung into its own existence out of nothing.

I believe what the NDE'ers are telling me, that God is Love - period. That because love exists, we exist. Life is the experience of existence outside of infinite love for the purpose of growth and adventure.


If we take the concepts of God and Love we should look at the antonyms of these concepts Hell/Satan.
I believe that path we consciously choose to follow in this life determines the state of our afterlife. To me this would explain why people that choose to Love and walk in the light return to Heaven, whereas people how choose Hate and darkness in their soul end up where we call Hell. This also holds true for the idea of an afterlife in relation with ghosts/spirits/demons. They represent a form of consciousness that is external to the physical form, but have somehow forgotten or willing chose to stay in the physical universe as opposed to moving on.

I have never had a NDE, but I have experienced consciousness outside of my physical body multiple times, and I know for a fact that there is a place of light/Love, and a place of darkness/Hate awaiting us after we complete our journey in this physical existence.

As far as just one creator ie: God, I lean more to the concept that we all represent this through our eternal/external consciousness, more than just having faith that one all mighty entity exists and created everything for us.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 03:01 PM
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reply to post by BBalazs
 

Determinism means that A leads to B and since you got A then you will lead to B. This means if you can identify all of the letters, and if you can know what they lead to, then you can determine the future. However, if something interrupts this process, like quantum fluctuations, then it prevents it from being perfect determinism and also prevents fine predictions far into the future since any change at step (x) exponentially ruins your predictions the further you project them. However, even a less than perfect determinism is only a small victory since, in this case, it originates in quantum fluctuations and these are outside our control at present. So we're not the driver, we're the passenger. We cannot say we have control of this anymore than the sun can say it has control over the earth. We do not control the past. We do not control unknowables. We just do what our consciousness allows us to and evolution has ensured it's a good choice.
edit on 21-1-2012 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by jonnywhite
reply to post by BBalazs
 

Determinism means that A leads to B and since you got A then you will lead to B. This means if you can identify all of the letters, and if you can know what they lead to, then you can determine the future. However, if something interrupts this process, like quantum fluctuations, then it prevents it from being perfect determinism and also prevents fine predictions far into the future since any change at step (x) exponentially ruins your predictions the further you project them. However, even a less than perfect determinism is only a small victory since, in this case, it originates in quantum fluctuations and these are outside our control at present. So we're not the driver, we're the passenger. We cannot say we have control of this anymore than the sun can say it has control over the earth.
edit on 21-1-2012 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



I would argue this: determinism as you described is nothing more then a model for our understanding.
Getting dissonant? ;-)
Evolution is deterministic, but between is free will, whatever it may be.
And physical, mathmetical models are even more then a model, not a final key to understandign.
Extropy, entropy, chaos.
Really determinism is a viewpoint.
Before i get shot down in friendly fire, i am in no way advocating a god, higher mind, etc.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by BBalazs
 

I never stated that I was an exception.

We all find some way to cope with the tragic life this is. We respond differently; go down different roads. Some go to religion. Some bury themselves in work. Some turn to spiritualism. Some turn to hedonism. There're more roads than one can ever list. Maybe evolution wanted it this way. Maybe there's no way to live life without suffering some form of cognitive dissonance. Perhaps absorbing the truth is bad for us and this is why evolution has programmed us to deny/escape.

The first caveman to mistakenly kill his child died from self-hatred. So evolution figured out a way to have this caveman forgive himself. Evolution found many alternative answers. Similarly, cavemen were dying en-masse after long and brutal tribal wars. Cavemen would see the destruction and the loss and the confusion they were unwilling participants of and could not face the emotions so, inevitably, threw themselves off cliffs and ran into herds of mammoth. Evolution saw this and resolved an answer. That answer is as many and varied as the life on earth.
edit on 21-1-2012 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by jonnywhite
reply to post by BBalazs
 

I never stated that I was an exception.

We all find some way to cope with the tragic life this is. We respond differently; go down different roads. Some go to religion. Some bury themselves in work. Some turn to spiritualism. Some turn to hedonism. There're more roads than one can ever list. Maybe evolution wanted it this way. Maybe there's no way to live life without suffering some form of cognitive dissonance. Perhaps absorbing the truth is bad for us and this is why evolution has programmed us to deny/escape.

The first caveman to mistakenly kill his child died from self-hatred. So evolution figured out a way to have this caveman forgive himself. Evolution found many alternative answers.
edit on 21-1-2012 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)

Is there such a thing as truth?
We do go on our own paths.
Ae have to respect each other.
But beliefe in made up deities, without a foothold in the reality of shared consicousness, is the very definition of madness.
We need to learn, to understand.
A never ceasing path it is.
Puting god here, and there is not a path to understanding, just a magic trick.
It is self denial.
It us what holds back humanity from talking the next step forward:
Space and genes.
We should be out there.
We could be out there.
We may one day be out there, if the 5% is not wiled out by religious zelots in whatever form or shale, saying we have learned all there is.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by BBalazs
Qm states what?
Link.
Yeah, but, no but.
I think you are a troll.
You have no such link.
You made it up.
In year head its true.
You linked a wave description. Wtf?!
Have fun, believing if you diety.
May i add that your sacred diety is licking my balls clean, as i right this.
At least i write the truth, unlike you.
Savant.



Originally posted by BBalazs
You have trouble with words. Dont you?


no offense BB, but the rampant mispelling of words throughout your posts shows me you have a much harder time with words than Mnemeth does...

regardless of the form he envisions God to have, a lot of people have the belief that something created the univserse. What makes his explination less valid than any others?

I have taken some of the things you have to say objectively, but from my perspective, you are acting more like a troll than he is. You criticize his understanding of words in the same breath that you make multiple spelling and grammatical errors.

as opposed to just going off and at times yelling at people, perhaps you should back up your words with sources that validate your position.

If the OP is 100% wrong and debunked from your persective, then please enlighten us as to what you believe to be true. I would be interested in comparing your thoughts to what others have to say on the subject.

Despite of the fact that the word 'faith' generally bring condescending attitudes from some people, the reality is everyone had faith in something, even if it is the belief that there is no God, afterlife, and that we are just biological entities that cease to exist once we die.

Again, I ask you what your beliefs are and what makes tham any more valid than mine/his/hers?



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by kalisdad

Originally posted by BBalazs
Qm states what?
Link.
Yeah, but, no but.
I think you are a troll.
You have no such link.
You made it up.
In year head its true.
You linked a wave description. Wtf?!
Have fun, believing if you diety.
May i add that your sacred diety is licking my balls clean, as i right this.
At least i write the truth, unlike you.
Savant.



Originally posted by BBalazs
You have trouble with words. Dont you?


no offense BB, but the rampant mispelling of words throughout your posts shows me you have a much harder time with words than Mnemeth does...

regardless of the form he envisions God to have, a lot of people have the belief that something created the univserse. What makes his explination less valid than any others?

I have taken some of the things you have to say objectively, but from my perspective, you are acting more like a troll than he is. You criticize his understanding of words in the same breath that you make multiple spelling and grammatical errors.

as opposed to just going off and at times yelling at people, perhaps you should back up your words with sources that validate your position.

If the OP is 100% wrong and debunked from your persective, then please enlighten us as to what you believe to be true. I would be interested in comparing your thoughts to what others have to say on the subject.

Despite of the fact that the word 'faith' generally bring condescending attitudes from some people, the reality is everyone had faith in something, even if it is the belief that there is no God, afterlife, and that we are just biological entities that cease to exist once we die.

Again, I ask you what your beliefs are and what makes tham any more valid than mine/his/hers?

Yes i can, but if you are going to nitpick with spelling i am not going to bother.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by BBalazs
We die. There is no heaven. There is no afterworld, or tear in the fabric of time. You will only be missed by humans. So be kind to friends and family.
Get over it.


Again I would like to point out that this is just your belief, and that you appear to have faith in this.
I personally know this to be false, and despite my belief contradicting yours, thats ok. We reap what we sow.

I also consider your final statement to 'Get over it' to be arguementative and shows again that you have troll-like tendencies.

Of the 7 billions or so humans on the planet, a majority of them in fact believe in an afterlife regardless of what name they attach to this concept. You might find that your adamant belief or lack of belief in an afterlife will get you into a limbo/void/Purgatory/Gehenna/Abaddon or whatever you want to call it. These places exist because they are the opposition of our place of origin. And your faith in this life are, to me, an indicator to where you will be heading when you die...

I would recommend you try to expand on your beliefs, let go of your mind and look inward. hopefully you will be able to find something more than the emptiness that you seem to have and it will awaken you to the reality that there is in fact a place beyond this physical universe.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by kalisdad

Originally posted by BBalazs
We die. There is no heaven. There is no afterworld, or tear in the fabric of time. You will only be missed by humans. So be kind to friends and family.
Get over it.


Again I would like to point out that this is just your belief, and that you appear to have faith in this.
I personally know this to be false, and despite my belief contradicting yours, thats ok. We reap what we sow.

I also consider your final statement to 'Get over it' to be arguementative and shows again that you have troll-like tendencies.

Of the 7 billions or so humans on the planet, a majority of them in fact believe in an afterlife regardless of what name they attach to this concept. You might find that your adamant belief or lack of belief in an afterlife will get you into a limbo/void/Purgatory/Gehenna/Abaddon or whatever you want to call it. These places exist because they are the opposition of our place of origin. And your faith in this life are, to me, an indicator to where you will be heading when you die...

I would recommend you try to expand on your beliefs, let go of your mind and look inward. hopefully you will be able to find something more than the emptiness that you seem to have and it will awaken you to the reality that there is in fact a place beyond this physical universe.

No this is afcat.
Prove it othewise.



posted on Jan, 21 2012 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by BBalazs

Originally posted by kalisdad
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


I always love your threads Mnemth....

don't really have time to read more than the OP at this point, but I wanted to chime in.

from my beliefs, I totally agree with you that consciousness is not only a force that originates from outside our universe, but it is also the driving force that created our universe to begin with. The idea of heaven is the place we all came from before we decided to experience life in this universe.

It's a bit late here, so I'll be checking back in tomorrow and reading up on what others have to add to the topic.

S&F

1 question:
Why does it have to be outside the universe?
Why cant it be the universe?
Or be a part of the universe.
I understand you wrote believe, so i am not mocking you, i am just showing alternative paths.
I write this so we can dialogus.


I say outside the universe because it is the only direct reference to "God" that I can fathom.

Either the universe was created and consciousness was formed from this, or consciousness existed before the universe, and it was the infinite energy of all combined consciousness throughout that theorist suggest was a requirement to cause the universe to be created and expand(Big Bang)

Now before you get the wrong idea about my beliefs, keep in mind that I have an extreme disdain for organized religion of all sorts, with the exception of Buddhism, which is far from an organize religion IMO.

Today I don't subscribe to anyone elses beliefs, I keep my own. I think most are all misguided and this is why we see them all fighting each other proclaiming their beliefs to be the one and only truth.

the truth to me is that we are all part of the same energy source, this drives our consciousness as individuals.
edit on 21-1-2012 by kalisdad because: (no reason given)



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