Indian Air Force vs. Pakistani Air Force

very magnanimous centurion but that isn't the point is it? for you to just say what you clearly don't believe I mean. The fact is that the Indian Air Force is hugely impressive these days, not just with its equipment, long gone are the days of the Ajeet and Marut in front line service, but in its tactics and its pilots. I hate to say it but only a fool would think otherwise.

I just wish India would buy some Typhoons and keep their 'British' quota alive after they retire their Jags After all they have flown British planes since they first got Spitfires and Tempests, even before independance.

Originally posted by centurion1211
Raj, you win.

Even though you all sound kind of like kids yelling at each other that "my dad's tougher than your dad", for the sake of moderation on this thread I'll admit that the Indian air force is the baddest bunch on the planet.

Feel better now?

Sorry. Thats a cheap cop out.


I am simply sick of all the unsubstantiated BS that's passed off as fact in every single discussion re: India.

If you feel that way, I want to know exactly why. Not silly slogans about its obviousness.

If you make a statement, and cannot back it up, then your statement is bogus.

I would like you to explain, given the IAFs fleet, record, weapons or tactics, why you think your statement is true. I say it isn't, and I'll back myself up.

Will... can... you?

Raj....I'm still waiting for you to respond to my posts in the weaponry threads. Please don't run away like all the Chinese posters do

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Raj....I'm still waiting for you to respond to my posts in the weaponry threads. Please don't run away like all the Chinese posters do

To warn or not to warn? Hmm...

Please refrain from this.

Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004

Sorry. Thats a cheap cop out.

I would like you to explain, given the IAFs fleet, record, weapons or tactics, why you think your statement is true. I say it isn't, and I'll back myself up.

Will... can... you?

The history and past behavior of the USA when attacked is usually to, at first, underestimate the attacker's capabilities. Pearl Harbor and WTC come to mind as examples. So, the attackers gain a 'great victory' over the USA.

What happens next is that a genuinely PO'd and energized USA turns all it's energy towards defeating the enemy. If it was the Indian air force in some hypothetical future conflict, I have no doubt that the end result would be the same - India would not have much of an air force at the end of a conflict.

Couple of other key points to consider:

a) Is it not possible that the USAF was 'smart' enough to withhold using all it's capabilities in order to 1. not give it's capabilities away and 2. trick the IAF into showing all they had? If that was the plan, sounds like it might have worked very well.
b) India has no force projection capability. All IAF planes are in India. USAF planes are just about everywhere in the world, or can be on fairly short notice. Therefore, any conflict would be waged in and around India, not near the US. The US would bring the conflict to you and your citizens would get to watch your planes falling out of the sky.

There, you wanted my opinion and so you have it.

interprid,chill man,i'm waiting and i'm getting tired of waiting....

I don't think anyone doubts the outcome of IAF v USAF matchup. It's a simple fact that the USAF outguns and outperforms every other airforce on the planet. However, no one here has said otherwise, and your analysis hence explains an irrelevant point.

You had previously maintained that there is pairity between the PAF and IAF, that these forces consisted of "hand-me-downs", and that these forces are akin 'two terrible highschool teams duking it out for last place.'

I simply requested you explain your reasonings for these statements. I had no idea that requesting someone to back up what they had said was so radical a move.


W4rl0rD,
?

If you are attempting to be 'witty' and parody my sincere request to you to continue discussion on your oft-repeated, oft-rebutted criticisms on the LCA project in (*gasp*) the LCA thread, then you've singularly failed. Congrats.

Originally posted by craigandrew
Yes the PAF might get beaten, but dont discount thier pilots. In the last big war in the 1970s the PAF pilots flying the old F-86s did extremely well against the IAF.

It pains me to accept it but its true. But the reasons for it baffle me.
The USA significantly helped pakistan in that was as they needed training for their pilots against Mig-21's of the IAF .

Check this quote from Chuck Yeager, a USAF top gun who "officialy" broke the sound barrier in his X-1 .

When we arrived in Pakistan in 1971, the political situation between the Pakistanis and Indians was really tense over Bangladesh, or East Pakistan, as it was known in those days, and Russia was backing India with tremendous amounts of new airplanes and tanks. The U.S. and China were backing the Pakistanis. My job was military advisor to the Pakistani air force, headed by Air Marshal Rahim Khan, who had been trained in Britain by the Royal Air Force, and was the first Pakistani pilot to exceed the speed of sound. He took me around to their different fighter groups and I met their pilots, who knew me and were really pleased that I was there. They had about five hundred airplanes, more than half of them Sabres and 104 Starfighters, a few B-57 bombers, and about a hundred Chinese MiG-19s. They were really good, aggressive dogfighters and proficient in gunnery and air combat tactics. I was damned impressed. Those guys just lived and breathed flying.
The Pakistanis whipped their [Indians'] asses in the sky, but it was the other way around in the ground war. The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks on Pakistani soil, documented them by serial number, identified the components such as engines, rocket pods, and new equipment on newer planes like the Soviet SU-7 fighter-bomber and the MiG-21 J, their latest supersonic fighter. The Pakistani army would cart off these items for me, and when the war ended, it took two big American Air Force cargo lifters to carry all those parts back to the States for analysis by our intelligence division.

I didn't get involved in the actual combat because that would've been too touchy, but I did fly around and pick up shot-down Indian pilots and take them back to prisoner-of-war camps for questioning. I interviewed them about the equipment they had been flying and the tactics their Soviet advisers taught them to use. I wore a uniform or flying suit all the time, and it was amusing when those Indians saw my name tag and asked, "Are you the Yeager who broke the sound barrier?" They couldn't believe I was in Pakistan or understand what I was doing there. I told them, "I'm the American Defense Rep here. That's what I'm doing." The PAF remains the only foreign air force in the world to have received Chuck Yeager's admiration - a recommendation which the PAF is proud of. (Source: PIADS)

(General (Retd.) Chuck Yeager (USAF) , Book: Yeager, the Autobiography).


The USAF significantly helped pakistan beat india, but still india prevailed.


Damn americans are now trying to sell F-16's to India

In this big bad world India can trust only and solely Russia, no one else.

Hehe...nice pick stealth spy..quite interesting...I'll verify with some of the POWS of the 71 war I know...Chuck Yeager would surely be not forgotten..
Yes the PAF is a good AF..very professional...very well trained.."Fiza'ya" they call it..

Originally posted by centurion1211
The history and past behavior of the USA when attacked is usually to, at first, underestimate the attacker's capabilities. Pearl Harbor and WTC come to mind as examples. So, the attackers gain a 'great victory' over the USA.

What happens next is that a genuinely PO'd and energized USA turns all it's energy towards defeating the enemy. If it was the Indian air force in some hypothetical future conflict, I have no doubt that the end result would be the same - India would not have much of an air force at the end of a conflict.

Couple of other key points to consider:

a) Is it not possible that the USAF was 'smart' enough to withhold using all it's capabilities in order to 1. not give it's capabilities away and 2. trick the IAF into showing all they had? If that was the plan, sounds like it might have worked very well.
b) India has no force projection capability. All IAF planes are in India. USAF planes are just about everywhere in the world, or can be on fairly short notice. Therefore, any conflict would be waged in and around India, not near the US. The US would bring the conflict to you and your citizens would get to watch your planes falling out of the sky.

There, you wanted my opinion and so you have it.

Sorry to dig this up but this acn't go unanswered..Indian does have a force projection capability....Here is a list of countires capable of force projection in descending order of capablilty:

1. USA
2. Russia
3. UK
4. France
5. Australia
6. India

Yes India has more force projection capabilites than any other country not mentioned on that list..IMHo Australia and India are at par in terms of regional influence but India has the capability to project power beyond its regional sphere too (aircraft carriers)..not to compete with the US of course..there was never a comparison...
One could add Israel to that group considering its deep penetration strike at Osiraq in 1982..that was a beaut of a op.

Another few pointers..

-IAF is the fourth(5th??) largest AF in the World (1000 odd aircraft)
-Currently holds sthe Su-30 MKI which is generally considered to be the best non-stealth fighter aircraft in the world today...
-IAF has a AF base with MiG29s in Tajikistan, i.e. belongs to a select group of countries(grp listed abv) which have AF bases in foreign nations...
-the best trained and experienced AF in Soviet aircraft outside Russia/Former USSR..infact certain combat strategies have proven to be superior to russian counterparts..as observed by the USAF in Cope India/Thunder..

Als...and heres the catch...the PAF is just as good in training/professnalism except it has far fewer aircraft (350 odd)...

So hypothesizing a Indo-Pak AF conflict would NOT be equivalent to a angola-zambia( or whatever) conflict as inisinuated before!!

Infact IMHO it would be more phenomenal than even the Falklands War or Israel war(s), just because of the equality of forces/skills involved..at least initially..in the long run IAF would always gain air superiority because of the overwhelming odds and manpower/sorties...

So don't try and compare the USAF and the IAF in terms of sheer deployability/size/overall tech level...the USAF wins hands down here..
But if the USAF ever hypothetically tried a airborne attack/invasion of IAF skies then it would worse than vietnam..even if you include the F-117s,
B-2s,F-22s just because of the sheer scale of the operation, the USAF would never come out outright victorious..
Same with USAF vs. PLAAF/RAF/Russian..the scale of ops is just too large for the US to handle even...

[Damn americans are now trying to sell F-16's to India

In this big bad world India can trust only and solely Russia, no one else.

Infact a few years back, the Mig -27 was India's lead fighter.
This was until the US sold about 30 ~~ 40 F-16's to pakistan when relations were tense, thus prompting India to desperately negotiate and order Mirage-2000's from France with much difficult . India also bought lots of Mig-29's from Russia during that time for the same reason.
Recently they acquired the Su-30 MKI thus swinging the advantage to the IAF's favour .

The US triggered a mini arms race, and are trying to do again, now reciprocating sides . The US must be dealt with pretty cautiously.

Why would India use the MiG 27 as its lead fighter? It wasn't even A2A capable. The MiG 27 was just the Russian equivalent of the Jaguar, a bit faster but less capable overall. I'd have thought the MiG 23, a genuine fighter plane, would have been a better bet.

The F-16s were acquired in 1983 if I remember correctly, prior to that the Indians had only the MiG-23/27s...???

Originally posted by Daedalus3
The F-16s were acquired in 1983 if I remember correctly, prior to that the Indians had only the MiG-23/27s...???

did pakistan really get F-16's in '83. that's nearly 2 decades back, 7 years before i was born !

they must be outdated and crappy now

Originally posted by waynos
Why would India use the MiG 27 as its lead fighter? It wasn't even A2A capable. The MiG 27 was just the Russian equivalent of the Jaguar, a bit faster but less capable overall. I'd have thought the MiG 23, a genuine fighter plane, would have been a better bet.

sorry i confused the Mig-23 for the Mig-27. They are so much alike

Ah, I see. OK, no worries, they are very much alike being based on the same basic design

The MiG-23s and -27s in IAF service never had a designated fighter role, though they both are capable of firing aams.

Before the MKI induction, the IAF's fighter role was the MiG-29 and the Mirage 2k. Following Sukhoi induction, the -29 is delegated to point defense role.

When Pakistan bought the F-16s, India's fighter was the MiG-21. The procurement spurred a massive modernization of the IAF, and lead to the induction of the -29 and 2k.

[edit on 28-1-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

Speaking of the US , read about this US recee intrusion into indian air space by a U-2.



here is the link users.senet.com.au...

another reason the IAF did'nt do to well in the 1971 is becaues of the incompetant, indegenous Maruth's they were flying.

Here's what an ex maruth pilot had to say in his blog

The Marut was the first fighter designed and produced in India. The legendary Dr Kurt Tank, of Focke Wolf 191 fame, led the team of aircraft designers in the 1950s to produce what was an excellent airframe. However, from its inception right upto its retirement in 1980, the Marut lacked a suitable power plant.

The Marut saga is a story of dismal project management and illustrates the inordinate sway of the Indian Defense Research Establishment over critical defense procurement decisions.

The Indian Air Force was never enthusiastic about inducting it. The aircraft's combat performance was dismal and so was its weapon load. Its high pressure hydraulic system was prone to frequent failures and its canopy and ejection systems had serious defects. During its short service life the Marut fleet was grounded for many months on many occasions.

The Maruts participated in the 1971 war but accomplished little more than pin prick strikes thanks to their limited payload. Their ability to fly at over 600 K at tree top levels, however, stood them in good stead and helped them escape attacking Sabres. Indeed, during the 1970s the three Marut squadrons operated by the IAF were more cause for worry to the Air Marhsals of the IAF than the Air Marhsals of the PAF.

I started my career in the IAF as a Marut pilot (1975-1980) and flew nearly 700 hrs on it. I had the dubious distinction of participating in its decommissioning in 1980 when the Air Force finally decided to give up on it. One of my last sorties on the Marut was a flight to Kanpur to deliever a spanking new aircraft to Kanpur for cocooning.

It was only when I went to Jaguars that I understood how potent a fighter jet could be just as how much more fun flying a fighter could be.

The point that I am trying to make here is that for good reason the IAF has not been happy with what the Defense Research Establishment in India has had to offer. The Marut is just one of the examples. I am aware of more. This is not to suggest that the IAF is not appreciative of the effort to indigenize. It is, but its responsibility to procure the best weapon systems within our limited resources is greater.

source : kuku.sawf.org...

and daedalus, can u tell me more about u'r meeting with the POW's.where, when, how did u meet them. what was the kind of torture given to them by chuck yeager and the pakistani's.?
can u confirm, the part about the maruth too if u happen to know some maruth pilots.?

[edit on 13-3-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Great every forum I go to there is Indo - Pak rivalry going on..anyways I am a Pakistani but I talk rational.

Some on up there said that IAF will defeat PAF cause IAF has better AirCrafts & well trained Pilots. I would say better AirCrafts right now --yes....well trained pilots--NO...

As an Americam F-14 pilot said its hard to defeat PAF Pilot cause they think they r hawks not men. They only land to eat & drink & back to air.
Some ppl consider PAF F-7PGs inferior. They r wrong. even before there was cope thunder there was "Red Dragons over Arabian Sea"....USNavy F-14s v/s PAF F-7s. Does any one knws the result. I'll tell ya one F-7 took out 3 F-14s. Americans acknowledgesd that the F-7 is not much of a fighter but the fighter in them are great men. In cope thunder the ration was 7:2 ( 7 IAF Fighters against 2 USAF fighters)....RED DRAGON increased the demand of F-7PGs in PAF & also arround the world.

Right now PAF is running scarce on AirCrafts but their Mirage 3/5 ROSE & F-7PG can bring down any aircrafts....no mirage-3 was defeated during "RED DRAGON over Arabian Sea" & they got 3 kills. Although USNavy won the RED DRAGON war game but they did acknowledge that when PAF pilots fly good jets they can destroy any thing.

As for the history goes. PAF has shot down 280+ IAF Fighter in 1965 & 71 but has only lost 53+ of its AirCrafts. Their bombing on Pathankot shocked the world. They destroyed the air field & all the brand new MiG-21s stationed there. Only one MiG-21 was left to fly in the entire war.
1965 M.M.Alam with his inferior Sabre shot down 5 IAF jets in less than a "minuet" still a record (Do goglr search on it).....1965, 3 Sabres flew over halwara, india & battled 12 IAF jets. They managed to shoot down 7 IAF jets. But two of the PAF pilots were lost. only one retured to tell the story (Do google on Cicel Chowdhary, Sarfaraz Rafiquee)....1965 PAF F-104 Star Fighter foreced IAF Flt.lt. Sikand to force land with out a fight inside Pakistan. Sikand was taken as POW. Both Sikand & F-104 pilot of PAF became Air Marshals of their respective countries in the future.

Even though Pakistan Army lost the East in 1971, PAF maintained its reputation of being the best & gave a hell to IAF.

PAF bought 40 F-16s. One was lost in friendly fire. This i can say for sure cause the pilot who shot it down lived in my neighbourhood. But PAF F-16 pilots shocked the world with their performance on F-16s against Russian ACs. Even the Russian pilots acknowledged them.

1999, a time passing, tea drinking PAF pilot who went on top of the kargil mountain to meet his brother up there shot down an IAF MiG-21 with an army gun. 13 mins later on the neighbouring mountain a 21 yr old army lance niak shot down another MiG-21 with anti AC-Gun. The point being Pakistani pilot shoots down IAF jet with even being on a jet.

Considering the crash records..old IAF MiGs r considered Flying Cofins but to worlds amaze IAF manage to crash their brand new Mirage-2000, which dessault investigated & blamed it on pilot. IAF still maintains that it was AC fault like every other crash.

One of my friends is in PAF & his commander just made a world record of Flying F-7PG for 21hrs of the day..3 hrs waisted in refuiling & food/drinks.

When it comes to pilot quality PAF is still way ahead with one of the least crash rates. 37 in last 10 yrs compared to IAF's 200+. .... But I do except that IAF has soom Ass Kicken machines right now, but this has given PAF a chance to buy an even better fighters. Right now Rafale is being evaluated.

& yes IAF never got the AWACs from Israel. USA barred the sale to either China or India but Sweden has agreed to sell PAF 7 of its AWACS. PS Gripen sale is still under considertaion. One of my uncle was on the negotiating board. They succeeded with AWACs but had to wait till USA apporaved Gripen sale. Sweden cant sale them unless USA agrees cause Gripen use USA's AIM-120 AMRAAMS & JDAMS.

Anyways when we r talking about peace & friendship there is no point of going to war against each other & no point in bringing PAF & IAF into battle again. I believe that Pakistan should let USA sell F-16s to IAF & India should let Russian sell Su-34 & 37MKI to PAF. Why not push for alliance than bombing each other.