Indian Air Force vs. Pakistani Air Force

Good Lord!

Don't have time to reply to full post now, but this takes the cake!

Originally posted by SABRE
As for the history goes. PAF has shot down 280+ IAF Fighter in 1965 & 71 but has only lost 53+ of its AirCrafts

Dude... I dunno where you pulled those figures out of... 280 a/c? That's more than the IAF even had at that time!

IAF losses from air-to-air combat in 1965 were 25 (of these 24 confirmed); from 1971 were 24 (18 confirmed).

PAF losses from '65 were 16, and '71 were 20. However, in the 1971 war, over 50 additional aircraft losses are unconfirmed, due to Pakistan's witholding of information.

Considering in both those wars the PAF was as large as the IAF in terms of fighters, and operated far more advanced aircraft (cold war goodies from Uncle Sam), and considering the IAF sortie:loss ratio was far less than Pakistan's (for example, .98% vs. 38% in E. Sector in 1971 war), I'd say the IAF made a rather decent showing of itself


I'll address the rest of your post later.

one of the most ignorant posts ever.

sweden are not selling any offensive weapons to pakistan, an gorunds of pakistan being a militory dictatorship that sponsors terrorism.

the rafale is not on offer to the PAF.


but the rafale, eurofighter, block -60 F-16, gripen, mig-29,mirage 2000-V are all on offer to india

AOA
It can't say turly that everythng in war depend on equpment, becausae Traing and Men also take place (If we see the history of Indo-Pak conflict, in 1948 on Kashmir war a pakistani Soldier shot down one of Indain Splitefire with his sub-meching gun). But anyhow we can't neglict this major Part of equpment
If we compairzen Both Air Forces Indian and Pakistani then we observe that Pakistan is much weaker then the indian Because indian have batter war mechine then pakistan. but pakistan have well trained men in her Air Force then India. Since 1991 to 2000 in these 9 year India lose more 300 Aircraft in different accident and more then 100 Fighter Pilot killed in these accident. it show that india have very poor Verity of expernce then pakistan. Meanwhile if we look the conflicts Pakistan made many records by F-86 Sabre and F-104 Starfighter these are those fighter planes which are not give good result to USAF in Vietnaam War. Moslty plane which delever to pakistan were Damage. but from those plane a pakistani Pilot made a world record he shut down 6 IAF planes in one sorty in only 33 Seconds period of time.I suggest to pakistan leave this I,II,III and IV genration aircrafts and try to made your own Aircraft that is nothing matter which generation it belonging from. But in 2015 PAF is become strongest Power in the sounth Asia. because PAF going to replace it A-5,F-7 and Mirrage Series. So I suggest to Pakistan Go for these Aircrafts.
These days Pakistan have only one type of High Tech Strike fighter Aircraft which have abality to gain Air supiority againest neighbor Airforce that is F-16A/B so Pakistan Should gain High Tech Aircrafts as the replacement of A-5,F-7 and Mirrage Series. because PAF lack this type of aircrafts
So PAF Should Refer to these aircraft as the displacement

1) 48 A-5 sould be replace by 80 J-10 or modify it's K 8 for CAS
2) 184 Aircrafts of Mirrage Series should Be replace by 200 Saab AJ 39,EF 2000 and Refale
3) 225 F-7 Series replace by 250 JF-17A and JF-17B

PAF also Need in much Quntity of BVR,ECM,Look Down-Shoot down and EW(Recon) system and also Need long Rang Air To Ait missiles like AIM 120 and also need Long Range SAM for Air Defence and also For PNS. because PNS have only 13 KM range SAMs I think it is joking with 110 KM Long Range Anti-Ship Missiles which Indian Maritime Aircrafts can carry.
AH
You can contact with me at [email protected]

Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004
Good Lord!

Don't have time to reply to full post now, but this takes the cake!

Originally posted by SABRE
As for the history goes. PAF has shot down 280+ IAF Fighter in 1965 & 71 but has only lost 53+ of its AirCrafts

Dude... I dunno where you pulled those figures out of... 280 a/c? That's more than the IAF even had at that time!

IAF losses from air-to-air combat in 1965 were 25 (of these 24 confirmed); from 1971 were 24 (18 confirmed).

PAF losses from '65 were 16, and '71 were 20. However, in the 1971 war, over 50 additional aircraft losses are unconfirmed, due to Pakistan's witholding of information.

Considering in both those wars the PAF was as large as the IAF in terms of fighters, and operated far more advanced aircraft (cold war goodies from Uncle Sam), and considering the IAF sortie:loss ratio was far less than Pakistan's (for example, .98% vs. 38% in E. Sector in 1971 war), I'd say the IAF made a rather decent showing of itself

I'll address the rest of your post later.

Yes those figures are authentic..ACIG.org
If IAF had lost 280+ aircraft then the war would not have been lost by Pakistan

Originally posted by umairrana
AOA
It can't say turly that everythng in war depend on equpment, becausae Traing and Men also take place (If we see the history of Indo-Pak conflict, in 1948 on Kashmir war a pakistani Soldier shot down one of Indain Splitefire with his sub-meching gun). But anyhow we can't neglict this major Part of equpment
If we compairzen Both Air Forces Indian and Pakistani then we observe that Pakistan is much weaker then the indian Because indian have batter war mechine then pakistan. but pakistan have well trained men in her Air Force then India. Since 1991 to 2000 in these 9 year India lose more 300 Aircraft in different accident and more then 100 Fighter Pilot killed in these accident. it show that india have very poor Verity of expernce then pakistan. Meanwhile if we look the conflicts Pakistan made many records by F-86 Sabre and F-104 Starfighter these are those fighter planes which are not give good result to USAF in Vietnaam War. Moslty plane which delever to pakistan were Damage. but from those plane a pakistani Pilot made a world record he shut down 6 IAF planes in one sorty in only 33 Seconds period of time.I suggest to pakistan leave this I,II,III and IV genration aircrafts and try to made your own Aircraft that is nothing matter which generation it belonging from. But in 2015 PAF is become strongest Power in the sounth Asia. because PAF going to replace it A-5,F-7 and Mirrage Series. So I suggest to Pakistan Go for these Aircrafts.
These days Pakistan have only one type of High Tech Strike fighter Aircraft which have abality to gain Air supiority againest neighbor Airforce that is F-16A/B so Pakistan Should gain High Tech Aircrafts as the replacement of A-5,F-7 and Mirrage Series. because PAF lack this type of aircrafts
So PAF Should Refer to these aircraft as the displacement

1) 48 A-5 sould be replace by 80 J-10 or modify it's K 8 for CAS
2) 184 Aircrafts of Mirrage Series should Be replace by 200 Saab AJ 39,EF 2000 and Refale
3) 225 F-7 Series replace by 250 JF-17A and JF-17B

PAF also Need in much Quntity of BVR,ECM,Look Down-Shoot down and EW(Recon) system and also Need long Rang Air To Ait missiles like AIM 120 and also need Long Range SAM for Air Defence and also For PNS. because PNS have only 13 KM range SAMs I think it is joking with 110 KM Long Range Anti-Ship Missiles which Indian Maritime Aircrafts can carry.
AH
You can contact with me at [email protected]

IAF pilots are not inferiorly trained as compared to PAF pilots...We see more accidents in the InAF because:

1. Free media.. Every accident is in the glare of hte media
2. Incompetent workmanship at manufacturing plants..
3. InAF flies MANY more sorties as compared to the PAF
4. Lack of an intermediate trainer for pilots to convert from subsonic/transonic to supersonic.

As for the wars in 65 and 71.. I admit that the PAF took the InAF by surprise in 65 (not 71)..
The InAF tacticians underestimated the strike capabilties of the PAF and sent out inferior aircraft (mystere) and aircraft not suited for A2a roles (hunter)..

All that changed with the introduction of the Gnat and the MiG 21..

And as for the confirmed losses of aircraft on both sides
here are the ACIG figures for both wars combined:
IAF : 47
PAF : 29

So yes the PAf did shoot down more jets than the IAF esp. in 65

But then again when you compare the losses by an advancing/offensive force
to a retreating/defensive force then it is obv. that the offensive force will take more chances/risks to carry out daring raids, hence endangering more aircraft while the defensive force will take great care to safeguard its hardware.
(e.g: storing starfighters on Iranian soil to keep them out of InAF's reach)
The war was won by India.
India stopped short(few km) of Lahore or Lahore would've been annexed.

Now to address this pak ace of yours..
If you're talking about MM Alam, according to ACIG he's got 3 confirmed kills on the same day... the others are UNCONFIRMED...

as for some inside intel.. MM Alam got most of his jets taxiing on the runway..
I can vouch for that..I know some of the pilots he incapacitated..

So what if PAF (assumed) has shot down more Indian aircrafts? IAF won all the wars. I prefer to be on the side of daring pilots who deep strike and win the war for the country. Do i want an airforce that penetrates enemy only for surprise attacks and picks enemy in own territory 200 kms deep?

If you guys want to know the real combat capabilities, try to estimate how may IAF aircrafts shot down PAF aircrafts in PAkistani territory during a fully loaded bombing run.

[edit on 5-4-2005 by BruteGorilla]

Hello Stealth Spy
this is not ture that Pakistan is under militory dictatorship. Because I am a Pakistani and i say i am very happy with my Prisedent and also with our Prime Miniter. I don't think so he is an amry man or a civilne. Anyhow as you say Sweeden and other european countires don't want to sell their weapon to PAF. As a pakistan i say we don't need any thing from their Countries because We will make all our need in our country Inshallah. So as you say rafale, eurofighter, block -60 F-16, gripen, mig-29,mirage 2000-V are all on offer to india. So india is hungry and Gridy country for this as the history say.
and so call terroism that are all things in india.Plz don't blame us all of your this kind of habbites.
Bye bye
You can contact with me at [email protected]

Ok, this thread is probably going to be closed faster than you can say 'flamebait'. The forum rules state no X vs Y threads, and this is a VERY heated topic if you have been on this forum for any length of time.

From RichardPrice

Post Number: 1258784 (post id: 1280677)

AOA
It can't say turly that everythng in war depend on equpment, becausae Traing and Men also take place (If we see the history of Indo-Pak conflict, in 1948 on Kashmir war a pakistani Soldier shot down one of Indain Splitefire with his sub-meching gun). But anyhow we can't neglict this major Part of equpment
If we compairzen Both Air Forces Indian and Pakistani then we observe that Pakistan is much weaker then the indian Because indian have batter war mechine then pakistan. but pakistan have well trained men in her Air Force then India. Since 1991 to 2000 in these 9 year India lose more 300 Aircraft in different accident and more then 100 Fighter Pilot killed in these accident. it show that india have very poor Verity of expernce then pakistan. Meanwhile if we look the conflicts Pakistan made many records by F-86 Sabre and F-104 Starfighter these are those fighter planes which are not give good result to USAF in Vietnaam War. Moslty plane which delever to pakistan were Damage. but from those plane a pakistani Pilot made a world record he shut down 6 IAF planes in one sorty in only 33 Seconds period of time.I suggest to pakistan leave this I,II,III and IV genration aircrafts and try to made your own Aircraft that is nothing matter which generation it belonging from. But in 2015 PAF is become strongest Power in the sounth Asia. because PAF going to replace it A-5,F-7 and Mirrage Series. So I suggest to Pakistan Go for these Aircrafts.
These days Pakistan have only one type of High Tech Strike fighter Aircraft which have abality to gain Air supiority againest neighbor Airforce that is F-16A/B so Pakistan Should gain High Tech Aircrafts as the replacement of A-5,F-7 and Mirrage Series. because PAF lack this type of aircrafts
So PAF Should Refer to these aircraft as the displacement

1) 48 A-5 sould be replace by 80 J-10 or modify it's K 8 for CAS
2) 184 Aircrafts of Mirrage Series should Be replace by 200(These are options Saab AJ 39,EF 2000,Refale,Su 35,F 15,F 18)
3) 225 F-7 Series replace by 250 JF-17A and JF-17B

PAF also Need in much Quntity of BVR,ECM,Look Down-Shoot down and EW(Recon) system and also Need long Rang Air To Ait missiles like AIM 120 and also need Long Range SAM for Air Defence and also For PNS. because PNS have only 13 KM range SAMs I think it is joking with 110 KM Long Range Anti-Ship Missiles which Indian Maritime Aircrafts can carry.
AH
You can contact with me at [email protected]

IAF pilots are not inferiorly trained as compared to PAF pilots...We see more accidents in the InAF because:

1. Free media.. Every accident is in the glare of hte media
2. Incompetent workmanship at manufacturing plants..
3. InAF flies MANY more sorties as compared to the PAF
4. Lack of an intermediate trainer for pilots to convert from subsonic/transonic to supersonic.

As for the wars in 65 and 71.. I admit that the PAF took the InAF by surprise in 65 (not 71)..
The InAF tacticians underestimated the strike capabilties of the PAF and sent out inferior aircraft (mystere) and aircraft not suited for A2a roles (hunter)..

All that changed with the introduction of the Gnat and the MiG 21..

And as for the confirmed losses of aircraft on both sides
here are the ACIG figures for both wars combined:
IAF : 47
PAF : 29

So yes the PAf did shoot down more jets than the IAF esp. in 65

But then again when you compare the losses by an advancing/offensive force
to a retreating/defensive force then it is obv. that the offensive force will take more chances/risks to carry out daring raids, hence endangering more aircraft while the defensive force will take great care to safeguard its hardware.
(e.g: storing starfighters on Iranian soil to keep them out of InAF's reach)
The war was won by India.
India stopped short(few km) of Lahore or Lahore would've been annexed.

Now to address this pak ace of yours..
If you're talking about MM Alam, according to ACIG he's got 3 confirmed kills on the same day... the others are UNCONFIRMED...

as for some inside intel.. MM Alam got most of his jets taxiing on the runway..
I can vouch for that..I know some of the pilots he incapacitated..

=====================================================
1)Free media.. Every accident is in the glare of hte media
there is nothing matter free media because Pakistani Media is much indepentend then indian media and pakistan is also surivie Internation media about her mistakes like BBC,CNN.
2) Incompetent workmanship at manufacturing plants..
this is Indian Goverment mistake
3) InAF flies MANY more sorties as compared to the PAF.
OK OK Now compaire USAF. USAF aircrafts take much sorites then IAF but thier losses are very very very small

4) Lack of an intermediate trainer for pilots to convert from subsonic/transonic to supersonic.
Indian Expend more then 18 billon to their defence so where is that money?
No IAF taked Punish from Both War as we see the losses. this is nothing matter in war which aircraft you have and whichone we have. War is War

IAF : 47
PAF : 29
this is very good ratio for the PAF because we are not discuess about inventory. we are discusing about Performance.
as you say Lahore is going to annexed. that is not say ture because India attack on pakistan in 1965 without declare war and in other hand there is no major defence line in border so the fight began outside from the city where is Pakistan Army lays it's majore defence line.
bye
you can contact with me at [email protected]

[edit on 5-4-2005 by umairrana]

[edit on 5-4-2005 by umairrana]

[edit on 5-4-2005 by umairrana]

Originally posted by umairrana
India attack on pakistan in 1965 without declare war and in other hand there is no major defence line in border so the fight began outside from the city where is Pakistan Army lays it's majore defence line.
bye

You see thats not the way we see it..
India claims that Pakistan first attack in the Chamb sector and thus the reprisal..

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by umairrana
India attack on pakistan in 1965 without declare war and in other hand there is no major defence line in border so the fight began outside from the city where is Pakistan Army lays it's majore defence line.
bye

You see thats not the way we see it..
India claims that Pakistan first attack in the Chamb sector and thus the reprisal..

No First Indian forces start attack on Kashmir sector and then she also start attack on chemb first and then lahore and then run-kuch and then other border. Isaythis surety because my grandfather was fought battle in chumb and he comferm me about this.
and also Pak-Forces Attack and capture Khel-Kurm and i also saw some picture of Kul-Kurm when some pakistani soldiers stand front of Railway station and Pak-forces also capture 1 railway engine and some bogies from Kul-Kum railway start which is pakistan using in these day if you say i can send you a web where you can see these picture of that location which were catpure by pakistan army. While India have no avidence to show any victory or any picture of any pakistani location where they capture.
here is Raio for army losses
in 1965
Pak Army 955 Soldiers while india loss +9965 soldiers
in 1971 Pak Army loss 4000 soldiers life while indian Army loss 20000 soldiers
.
New Axis power is USA.India and Iserail and GB
Bye
you can contact with me at [email protected]

Im sure every indian will dispute those figures...
Also the neutrals will find such figures hard to believe... esp. since the 71 war had Pak split in two..
Do you have a neutral site which supports those figures??

Sorry,

Indian government is not into cheap mudslings. That fact that it won all wars speaks volumes. How many were lost or killed is Pakistani face saving propoganda.

Whats the point in counting the dead when you lost all the wars?

still... I find those figures very confusing...the inconsistencies are just too great..
Somebody give me neutral figures..

Its confusing because India dosen't allow it and Pakistan over inflates it.

uhh??
HOw are you deceding what is confusing for me??
I want some legit neutral figures..

Legin numbers don't exist.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
uhh??
HOw are you deceding what is confusing for me??
I want some legit neutral figures..

How are you ever going to find those when the Pakistani government does not release real figures? According to the Pakistani government for every dead Pakistani soldier there are 10 dead Indian soldiers. Hard to believe isn't it?

There must be some neutral authority/organisation who would have kept figures
themselves, interviewed both sides and tried to co-rrelate facts with narrations..
ITs not that hard..
The real numbers may never be found but a reasonable estimate is definitely gettable..