About the dark side, how to work with it.

Originally posted by UnlimitedSky

Hi,

I tried to keep the post as elementary as possible, of course Debbie Ford's book is much more detailed. A good read.

I suspected as much and I do agree she raises some good points. Obviously though not having read her work I can only comment on what you have presented.

The persona is absolutely NOT the ego. The persona is that facade that most build in wanting to appear only good. It is the mask behind which people hide because of the belief that if they are real, and admit to their weaknesses or dark sides, then they will not be accepted.

Unfortunately the ‘Persona’ and how Debbie uses it is not terminology I am familiar with, but from what I understand of the ego (and from what you say of the persona) it seems that this the persona is part of the ego’s totality, albeit a negative one. For in wanting to facilitate the concept of what is ‘good’ or what is ‘bad’, themselves being only mental constructs relative to each human being, you are in turn facilitating the illusion of separateness that comes with possessing an ego.

We are born with ego. It is part of the human being that grounds him in this world. We are not born with a persona. A baby has no histasion to throw up on you, regardless of you may think of him when he does that, and even little children can say some very 'unacepptable' things because they are still blatently true.
(When my now 23 year old son was only 2 we went to Cape Town via Durban on train. When the conductor came round to clip our tickets, my son looked right in this man's face and said: Oh Mommy! He is a very ugly man, shame!' Granted, the man had ackne, and was most unatractive, but if he already had his persona or mask in place, he would be to worried about appearing judgmental and rude.)

As alluded to above, many would argue this is merely development of the ego as the child grows older. Humans have a lot of twisted idea’s regarding the nature of reality which develop through time.

But here you bring up the 'truth'. What in fact is the truth? One may wonder who is really in the wrong. The person on the train for taking offence at being called ugly, or the child for calling a man with who simply has bad acne ugly. The fact that the child regards someone with a skin problem as being ‘ugly’ in itself means the child already has a slightly warped view (as do we all) of the truth. In truth the is no such thing as ‘ugly’, merely our perception of it. Now if you had then gone on to chastise your son for saying such words would that in turn make you wrong?

Obviously this is a very complex.

The post is not about lying, deception or telling fibs. It is about lying to yourself about who you are.

But it is about how the development of the persona leads to deception which is is why I guess I went off on a bit of tangent about lying. It also seemed to imply that lying is always a bad thing, but looking back I guess ultimately you’re referring to lying to yourself……maybe?

Trying to mold yourself as only good, whereas we all have a dark side. Simply acknowleging your dark side, instead of pretending it does not exsist, is the healthier option.

Totally agree, all I would add is ‘trying to mould yourself on what is perceived as good…..’

Originally posted by UnlimitedSky
reply to post by Glass

 

ok, old age creeping up on me!

the guy that posted after you is called artsist poet (avatar) so i got it a little pearshape.

Sorry about that!

Hi - Yes I am an artist - a painter on canvas - also a poet - not rap though it could be used in that way.
Thanks for your advice which I take. These day If I get fired up or moved by something I do express it through writing and painting - I once said Art saved my life - though that sounds rather drastic - It has in a way for when faced with a blank canvas or piece of paper and a headfull of ideas anything is possible. I feel fortunate for such an outlet and also it is always a learning process of refinement of self.
Again Thank You.

reply to post by 1littlewolf


Is there something wrong with my perception?

It feels to me like you want to display extensive knowledge to microscopic detail for the mere pleasure of sounding a cut above the rest. That you are condesending in your attitude towards us normal people whom you think should count our blessings that you even join this conversation with your yearning to appear intellectual and highly educated.

That you think you are all-knowing and that you are really NOT interested to take part IN the conversation, but rather to point out every possible grain of sand that is not blowing according to your allmighty wind.

You have a very high and mighty attitude with which you appear to attempt to belittle and correct.

Am I wrong in percieving you that way? Because you sure do sound like you simply want to split hairs and know it all better than anyone.

Nobody likes a smart ass.

reply to post by UnlimitedSky


In your view would it be except-able for the ugly man to destroy and devour your child, just exercising the ol dark side.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by UnlimitedSky

 

In your view would it be except-able for the ugly man to destroy and devour your child, just exercising the ol dark side.

It is very clear that you absolutely did NOT read the opening post.

No, it would be extremely wrong. IT is not about EXERCISING THE DARK SIDE!!!

reply to post by UnlimitedSky


Ok yes I am sorry, it is about recognizing the dark side? This dark side is a relevant piece of the human I understand, it is a sharpened tool that was required for the survival of our species,

but I believe all humans who have lived in a tribe or community, civilization or city., has felt it necessary to domesticate himself. as vicious as an animal may be, once they are shown security and love they too may be a good, loving and gentle creature, the same is with man,

ok i did read your op... i still have the same arguments, the dark side should not be suppressed, it should be understood and known as a part of that human, know thyself, thy who self completely, know all of what you are capable of... So you want people to be able in their mind to think anything about anything... but as long as they dont act them out?

I can never view lying or obscene greed to the point of screwing over others as a virtue, unless the natural competition is who can be the biggest d**k

the way i see it is humanity early on, like other large groups of animals who work together as a species, decided it would be more successful if they banded together to fend off nature, pool their resources of body,mind, skill, to make things easier for all, so in a way towards other human beings the dark side was surpressed, but if you want to take this energy out you can go on a hunt, or work out work on building yourself, or do constructive work.. it is found that when striving towards that high level of goodness, when living with a cause for protecting a family with love, along with others, in community, then the only evils would be what may corrupt that community or family.

reply to post by purplehays


This is the second thread I see here that take issue with love and light and claim it to be some cult, wondering to myself what is on the cards. I personally do not believe that most love and light sayers are even referring to being ignorant of or hiding from reality. On the contrary it seems to me that it is what it is about, being, and allowing to be complete. At least that is what it means for me.

Love to me means to come from a non judgmental, no fear, open and accepting viewpoint of the world as a whole, all inclusive no label of good or bad attached when viewed from this point. Although when action is needed action is taken but not incorporated as an all evil or all good event rather just an event.

Light represents seeing and being present in actuality. Not hiding from or suppressing knowledge that goes against what is comfortable but rather acknowledging all that is part of this world in terms of experience.
Being the light as such to me represents standing in full view being open and honest about all aspects of the own person internally as well as externally.

Balance to me means to do what is necessary, to nourish not only one type of thought, action or emotion but allowing all to be as they are. To work on mental, physical and emotional aspects of self internally and externally. To balance the being. And to seek understanding of the ebbing and flowing of the world.

Three guides as good as any, not to be confused with claiming perfection in the sense of in comparison to you. I am perfect and so are you but it is a matter of how you look at it

The mere fact that people react to the word light or dark with a set idea of what they represent in another person shows me in my understanding that said people are still hiding from aspects of themselves they do not like or want to be part of. To be truly open to everything in yourself means that ultimately you have to recognise that you are a reflection of everyone and everything else and vice versa.

What to do once that realisation has arrived? Well it's anyones choice to do as they please, I chose to pursue happiness and peace in me, someone else may chose differently. In the end it is, and that is really the most that can be said about anything before entering into territory where words simply do not suffice to describe it.

This of course is all my understanding and one way of seeing. It is the way I see as of now. Later there may be another view coming forth in my mind. I accept that also.

I agree that we are multifaceted beings of potential. What we do with that potential is how we are received by other beings expressing their potential. The choice (if there even is one) is in what do I want to make of it.

My best I can do is allowing for continued learning through experience. In my ideal world others might do the same for a more harmonious existence. In my ideal world I might not grow or learn a thing? Who's to say what it is other than that it is.

Much love , light and balance

reply to post by ImaFungi


Isn't the 'dark' side only dark in context. Stealing might actually save a life, being greedy provide longterm safety and comfort etc etc. But I believe the OP is trying to say suppression is not a good way to extinguish non constructive behaviour but rather acknowledgement and channeling these energies into constructive action.
Every feeling, emotion and thought has the duality aspect built into it. We can chose to react to any one thing with building or destroying in mind. If I understand the OP correctly he/she was saying by suppressing aspects of self we run the risk of becoming lurkers in the dark being much more of that which we try to suppress than is necessary or healthy for ourselves and society.

It is not the same as saying be happy about rapists, murderers, greed that causes harm to others etc rather when you are unhappy about these things chose wisely between constructive or destructive response to that raging feeling inside. The only way you can have that choice is by acknowledging you have the potential to do both in the first place.

My only issue with the OP was the labeling of people who suppress as the love and light sayers.....they also lurk amongst the dark sayers or the say nothing at allers

Good thread OP. I believe in one rule (or law) and one rule only from which all others rules come from "do on to others as you do on to yourself". But to expand, I believe that all that matters is free will and choice as long as that free will does not negatively infringe on others then do whatever the hell you want.

Yes we all have shadow sides to us and we bury them deep within our psyche, at times consciously and at other times unconsciously. Sooner or later they manifest directly or indirectly and I agree that in order to have balance, we must accept our shadow side without judgment. The persona is partly us and partly a facade, and unfortunately many people confuse it as truly themselves (together with their ego). Messing with psychedelics (some which are legal and others which are not) taught me right away that this persona attached to me (along with my name) is simply a role being played and not everlasting.

Originally posted by purplehays
Great post

I hope that all the new agers get to read this because I feel they're the ones that would benefit from this the most. Most of them only focus on the love and light aspect while refusing to acknowledge the darkness. The dark side plays a role in this dualistic world we find ourselves in and offers us a chance for real growth but only if we fully acknowledge our complete selves.

I thought the same thing. Back in my early 20's I was really into New Age because all my life all I have known was Christianity (Catholicism) which I never vibed with, and to me New Age was refreshing. As I read more and I came in contact with others that practiced New Age, I realize that is was just another set of rules (dogma) and as much as open-mindless was preached, too many times if anything counter to their beliefs were brought up it was a "lalalalalala I can't hear you" reaction. Not trying to single out NA, and many religions are like that.

Anyway I am getting off the point; the whole think happy thoughts only be light, is great and all but unless you have surpassed the point of duality (become truly enlightened) then it causes more damage to assume to fool yourself into believing you are only one aspect or point in polarity.

One of the better OP's I have encountered yet, on ATS. S&F!

After more than half a life-time of observing and studying my 'Dark Side', I interact with it as if it were a friend. It has helped me, that time, when I needed to act violently, or someone would have gotten killed. And that time, when, as a child, I would tell my mom I had done my homework, when I hadn't, because I wanted to go out and play. She never asked for proof, bless her heart, she probably knew, by her own life-experience.

It is my tool, there to be used when I need it. And it's always present, somewhere within me, and on the look-out for new and other thrills and chills. Tempting. But, as you say... You don't need to act upon the impulses it gives. At every moments, it is there to show me what things are not, what is real and what isn't! It's someting to be grateful for. And when it's time to part ways, well, thanks for the company on this rollercoaster.

While we should never forget that, on our plain of existence, you can't have a 'Light Side', without a 'Dark Side. How else could we tell the difference?

Know Thyself and Deny Ignorance, indeed!

Originally posted by UnlimitedSky
reply to post by AQuestion

 

I think that we should go further than accepting our dark sides. We should embrace and love that side, give it tenderness as it is a part of society that has been totally abused, deprived, and rejected for eons..

^This! The hardest lesson I have ever learned (and the most valuable one) was that I am no better or worse than any other human being (to accept that concept you MUST embrace your own dark side). Essentially I am Mother Teresa, and I am Stalin. I am Jim Bakker, Orel Roberts, Pope Benedict XVI and Hitler. I am Gandhi. I am the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., John F. Kennedy and John Wilkes Booth. Until you realize that there is no power great enough to thwart the will of the Infinite to experience itself in eternal and infinite variety, you cannot (and your ego will not let you) see that there is no crime that is not divinely ordained, and that there is no rebellion that is not supported and armed by the Creator Itself. The implication is that all victims are, in their eternal nature, complicit with the perpetrators who victimize them. And the perps are often the ones with the bigger lesson to learn. This is far too ego-shattering a concept for most people to even entertain, let alone accept.

It is time for this truth to go viral, and it will. When it does, those who think they rule will lose their illusory control, and in turn will learn the very valuable lessons that they have coming.

See this article from halfpasthuman.com for more on the now-in-progress consciousness shift: www.halfpasthuman.com...

Originally posted by brommas
reply to post by UnlimitedSky

 

Next thing we will all be told is that paedophillia is natural to us all and we should accept that this is part of our dark side. Sorry i have to disagree with all of your statements, i have never heard so much crap in all my life!. When i do something for someone else, it makes me feel good,however if i were to do something bad to someone else, this really would not make me feel good.

What if you held back from doing something socially defined as "bad" for that reason, yet the experience of that "bad" was just what the hypothetical "victim" needed in order to fully develop as the person they were meant to be? Would that make you feel better?

Who the hell do these hairless monkeys think they are, to define "good" and "bad"?

"Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

Do you really consider that to be a step forward?

No, i am not scared of letting my dark side go or afraid of feeling good if i were to say run someone through with a blade for example, i know that i would not. Basically because i care about other people and feel good when i help someone else, stranger or not, this in turn makes me feel good inside, not because i have been programmed to do that, but because i believe as human beings we give and receive emotions and we are interested in each others welfare.

That only works as long as you can convince yourself that there are real others in whose welfare you can have interest. When the program of separation begins breaking down, you have to integrate or get out of the [gene] pool, a la Robert De Niro's character's attempted suicide in Taxi Driver.

The reason none of this is rarely seen

you mean that it's always seen?

is that we have different groups of people around the world with their own agendas, which turn each of us against each other.

Or, I would suggest, to turn you against yourself.

I have heard it said numerous times by different people that mans natural state is to be fighting or at war with each other, again what a load of utter crap. The truth of that statement is that politics, religion and other factors are prevelent in all of our lives and we react to them, we are not taught how to think anymore, but what to think, this is why the world is the way it is, someone tells us what we should be thinking, the message is reinforced by society, problem solved.

I think you mean, problem articulated. I see no solution in what you said.

Devide and conquer every time and only a very few ever see it. I am no better or worse than you or anyone else, and i understand that each of us has different motivations that drive us, also i accept that for you, this may be your answer to life as well as some others here,but this does not make it so for everyone.

So, you really believe you are no better than Jeffrey Dahmer? You feel you deserve what happened to him? Come on, think about that carefully; the answer, your answer, is valuable.

Can you really imagine a world or universe that reacted the way you state? I would go as far as to say that you would not want it if it was so, because there is always someone bigger or stronger than you to impose what they want. Pretty much like our elites are trying to do at the moment.

There is no imposition, as you have agreed to the whole ride before you got on board. There is no protection from yourself, or from agreements to which you have bound yourself. You prove that you still feel divided from yourself by invoking a convenient outside force that causes you distress. There is no external enemy. There is only the Ego, projecting its manufactured fear onto an "outside" entity for the purposes of maintaining its (illusory) position of control over your life.

You would be well-served by watching the film "Revolver" (US version only, called "Director's Cut" everywhere else) and taking its message to heart.

reply to post by seamus


What do you mean we have agreed to the ride before hand?

the argument i wish to express is,

what if there is no behind the scenes, that everything occuring here in real time is a product of a product, cause and effect, complete freedom, making up the story as we go on,

what if this physical world and our momentary position in it is all that exists for us, then human progression, the advancement of the human species would be the most important thing, death is given to all living beings, but humans have seen that they can make enormous dents of change into their temporal reality, maybe eventually there will be a way to eliminate the temporalness, and so the most important thing is projecting and perfecting ones genes, sending them into the future states of mankind, ensuring that the beginnings of your family heritage make it to the end, just like the hopes and wills of our ancestors allowed for their genes to be in this moment,along with the hard copied knowledge and information to create our physical environments, tools and technology.

man has seen that there is no end to what can be done, and the totality of mankind from 100 years ago and 100 years forward, if allowed to continuously build on its breadth of knowledge with its endless curiosity will simply never come to an end, but instead only continue to thrive forward, toward the infinite, of unknown discovery, and possibility.

so then humans would only be a humble part of an infinite whole,
like a cell working for the greater good, in the body of civilization,

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by seamus

 

What do you mean we have agreed to the ride before hand?

First principle: Infinity is undivided.
Because: If Infinity were divided it would become multiplicity, which involves numbers, which would make it, by definition, not infinite.

Second principle: Consciousness is the substance of existence.
Demonstrated by: among other facts, the fact of what is called "the observation problem" in quantum physics.

Third principle: All that is has its origin in the Infinite, and is in essence undivided from the Infinite.
Both string theory and waveform theory support this.

Fourth principle: Since I am undivided from the Infinite, I am a direct expression of its power and will. Anything that happens to me, assuming the omnibenevolence of the Infinite, has my explicit, or at the very least implicit, approval (through our immutable organic connection with the Infinite).

reply to post by seamus



so you believe there is a very calculated purpose and reason for every speck of existence? that the infinite wants to show your consciousness something?
in means of placing sanctions on your true infiniteness, and limiting you to this planet, this time, and your physical body? so you believe in a soul, which observes different possibilities of the infinite?


humanities biggest fears are that it is missing out on something, missing out on everything, oh the general purpose of this planet is such a waste of time, a bore, a mess, every moment we do nothing we are missing out on a million more things, lets explore the universe,

where you are saying, we are the universe, we have been exploring the universe for eternity, we are just limited for a speck of time to this planet and form of being, which feels like a lifetime...

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by seamus

 

so you believe there is a very calculated purpose and reason for every speck of existence? that the infinite wants to show your consciousness something?
in means of placing sanctions on your true infiniteness, and limiting you to this planet, this time, and your physical body? so you believe in a soul, which observes different possibilities of the infinite?


humanities biggest fears are that it is missing out on something, missing out on everything, oh the general purpose of this planet is such a waste of time, a bore, a mess, every moment we do nothing we are missing out on a million more things, lets explore the universe,

where you are saying, we are the universe, we have been exploring the universe for eternity, we are just limited for a speck of time to this planet and form of being, which feels like a lifetime...

Yep that's pretty much what I believe I must say.

reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms


And thats why i came to the argument I stated a few posts above.

is there any reward in human progression? or is the mortal life, no matter what occurs the most we can hope for?

you think that we are not suppose to love our nature, and that all human progress to extend comfort and living is falling deeper into the trap of materiality? which will be snatched from our souls upon death.

that is counter intuitive in the sense that all life which finds itself arise fights for that life relentlessly and sees its experience and mission of procreation as most valuable.

you think you have a soul which has done many things in past lives on other planets, and just some how got caught up in this mess here, and your philosophy is one of not being too interested in anything that is going on here because everything sucks and there must be better awaiting you?

reply to post by UnlimitedSky


A Star and Flag for an excellent post on a very relevant subject.

It is a big mistake to try and discard the dark side, as it is impossible. So we suppress it. If it is suppressed to severely it will find expression by attracting people into our lives that give expression to these parts of ourselves that we deny. This is how we repeatedly fall into relationships that are destructive and or undesireable. He goes so far as to state that this may (in extreme cases) drive the person to create within himself another personality, the dissociative identity disorder. Jung further states that he would rather be whole, than good.

I am happy you bring this to the table, in light of the Christians, who are scared of the Dark Side. I will say what my own research has discovered on this, and contrary to popular belief, the Dark Side is not Evil Incarnate. In fact, I do not even subscribe to an ultimate author of Evil, such as the Devil, or Satan.

I studied Magick for a very long time, over 25 years, altogether. My Great Grandmother was a Gypsy, and a powerful Witch. I grew up hearing stories about her. During my research and study, I discovered that the power lies in the bloodline, at least in some cases. I began to discover latent powers within myself. I will not go into specifics, the topic at hand is about the Dark Side, not me.

The power I speak of, and this includes the power of prayer, of magick, of will, of desire, of sympathy, is both Light and Dark, two polarities of a single force. One cannot exist without then other, take away Dark, Light must go too, one defines the other. Take away Evil, Goodness also goes, one is nothing without the other.

To use these powers, and anyone can attain them, with study, and practice, one can use either or, or, for the best and strongest effect, one uses both. One walks the Middle Path. The Path between Light and Dark, Good and Evil. Using both, being neither. Neutral in essence. To Know, to Will, to Dare, and to Keep Silent.

Originally posted by UnlimitedSky
reply to post by 1littlewolf

 

Is there something wrong with my perception?

It feels to me like you want to display extensive knowledge to microscopic detail for the mere pleasure of sounding a cut above the rest. That you are condesending in your attitude towards us normal people whom you think should count our blessings that you even join this conversation with your yearning to appear intellectual and highly educated.

That you think you are all-knowing and that you are really NOT interested to take part IN the conversation, but rather to point out every possible grain of sand that is not blowing according to your allmighty wind.

You have a very high and mighty attitude with which you appear to attempt to belittle and correct.

Am I wrong in percieving you that way? Because you sure do sound like you simply want to split hairs and know it all better than anyone.

Nobody likes a smart ass.

Ouch! Quite a harsh take on my post you have there.

You are completely perceiving me in the wrong way and I in no way intended to be condescending or 'all-knowing', I do not consider myself at all to be a 'cut-above the rest' and in re-reading my reply I fail to see how you could have interpreted this. Maybe it's just my writing style.

As I said in my first post I find the subject of your thread quite refreshing as well as interesting. I even flagged it. But when I'm interested in something I like to get down to the nitty-gritty details and maybe you interpreted this as me trying to split hairs. I also believe the reason one would post a thread here on ATS is so others can take it to the next level, or point out what they may see as flaws so you can have a chance to explain the OP in more detail. Obviously I don't expect you to post the collected works of Debbie Ford all in one hit, but from what you did mention of her, as I said before, she does have some great points such as countering anger with love. I just disagreed slightly with what you said about it being the cause of why kids lie. I'm sure it's part of the reason but in my opinion it's definitely not the full story .

So allow me to ask my questions again and try to imagine that instead of a condescending smart-ass, you're talking with a guy who's genuinely interested in what you have to say but simply wants to know a few more details.

*So what exactly is the difference between the persona and the ego. Cos as I said before your description of the persona sounds very much like a negative aspect of the ego.

*Wouldn't the issue of how you handle a the issue of being called ugly, or chastising a child for calling someone ugly be secondary to the fact that the child itself believes someone to be 'ugly' in the first place just because he has a skin disorder?

Also I would be very interested in how you handled the situation 21 years ago, and how you would handle it if you knew then what you know now.

Thanks in advance.