It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Hell is theologically impossible if God is omnipotent.

page: 2
3
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 01:41 PM
link   
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


"Hell" is a prison built to house the Fallen Angels who rebelled against the Father. He created it to hold them , so it exists. Omnipotence means he has the power to do whatever he wishes but he excercises wisdom in using that power. He has what humans do not and that is wisdom.

He is long suffering but that will come to an end one day and the "proof" of his existence the world seeks so badly shall be shown to them as it was shown to the Israelites who provoked him during the Provocation. I promise you, the world will not like that proof. On that day there will be many a person who will curse the day their mothers gave birth to them.




posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 09:00 AM
link   

Originally posted by Mister_Bit
I think this can be easily explained...

When I was younger and doing something naughty, my Mum would say "Pack that in or your Dad will belt you around the head"...

Of course he never would but it put enough fear into me to make me stop.

It's a way for "God" or the Church to discipline us without harming us.

At least that's how I see it.
edit on 9-1-2012 by Mister_Bit because: (no reason given)


No harm!

If you go to any ex Christian site, you will note that many who have discarded Christianity have done so because of the trauma cause by this fear of hell.

The discipline should be to do good for good's sake. Not for fear.
Doing good out of fear is good for the community perhaps but is piss poor mental training if it is the soul that religion is interested in. Fear just bread hypocrisy.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 09:04 AM
link   
We need to distinguish most carefully between the Lake of Fire, which is presented in the Bible as a very real place, and Hell, which is built up on supposition. Given that, is this place for the cursed a place of:

Eternal Punishment?

Eternal Destruction?

Purification?

Your view of God will determine your view of the Lake of Fire or Hell:

Is He a God of wrath?

Is He a God of mercy?

Is He a God of love?

We see in the Bible that God's wrath passes in time, so the punishment must be temporary.

We see in the Bible that God's mercy always follows the wrath, so He will pull the cursed out of the fire.

We see in the Bible that God's love is eternal, so the cursed will be restored.

All will be saved, but each in his/her own order, and some will take a lot of purification...

Remember that Israel was punished, and driven off into exile, but yet given the promise of restoration. I see that as a type for all mankind.



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 09:08 AM
link   

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am
 



efinition of omnipotent. ----- Having virtually unlimited authority or influence.



3 things God cannot do:

1. Lie.
2. Learn. He'll never be surprised when you make a mistake. He still loved you in Christ.
3. Violate your sovereignty as a being created in His own image. He will not make you love Him.


1. To cause lies is the same as lying.

Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jer 20:7

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Thessalonians 2:11

2. Scripture says that God found iniquity in Satan. A surprise that got Satan banished to earth. Banished may be the wrong word as he was rewarded with dominion over mankind.

3. God ignored or denied man's sovereignty with every command and commandment as well as every time he ignored man's free will to live as in Sodom and the genocide of Noah's day.

Thanks for your three refutable points.

Refute mine or thank me for setting you straight.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 09:13 AM
link   

Originally posted by Communicationwillfreeus
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


You make your choice "here" in this life and will be judged later. You are choosing right now every day, unless you have never heard the messages of god's word. The only ones that would be given a choice like you speak of are people who have never heard the word of god. I agree that none of them would say no to god, but hell is for the ones who have already made their choices.

My question is; if a person is right at the line of acceptance into heaven and could be judged either way, who gets to make the call on acceptance and on what grounds would they lean one way or the other?



To judge a man who has not been given full disclosure and has only been given hearsay or bible say, all hearsay, is quite immoral.

Your word has spawned a myriad of cults.
Which one is the true word?
The one that allows many wives or the one that allows only one?

Your cult is of course the right one.
And you want to get into heaven while you hate all the others. How droll.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 09:18 AM
link   

Originally posted by Ittabena
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Hey, and there is another good reason. I am usually riding this band wagon but from a religious history viewpoint. You are correct though too sir! Good Job.

My take on this question is that no other religion in the world has kept Hell as a theme park for the naughty before Christianity. Except of course for the sole exception of the Sun (Son) worship of Mithraism. Throughout history new faiths have nearly always incorporated elements of the previous faith it was replacing to make the transition easier for us stubborn humans.

S+F OP


Thanks.

Just for reference.
I am not 100% sure but I thought that Zorasterism predated Mithraism and that it had a hell concept.

That aside. I think that it all started in Egypt and Sumer.

www.dailymotion.com...

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 09:20 AM
link   

Originally posted by dilly1
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Hell ,God and Satan are all man made inventions. They all come from man's imagination. Just like aliens .


All man made. All based on blind faith with not a single ounce logic.




+ 1

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 09:22 AM
link   

Originally posted by icepack
in mythologies humans are not judged at the end of their lives, its the soul. the soul is not human and not mortal, it exists before and after you.


You know this as a fact, how?

I know, no proof, just conjecture.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 09:31 AM
link   

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
Good reasoning!! I'm not religious at all but this I can understand.

Be interesting to see the replies. S+F for you sir.

Peace

PS: What I never understood is that people who do good, in the eyes of God, go to heaven as a reward but people who do evil get punished in hell......??

What's with the punishment? You'd think Satan would be happy with "evil" people....


Quite simple in the day and simplistic today.

The old carrot and stick philosophy.

en.wikipedia.org...

Christianity just took it too far and destroyed their God's omnipotence with it.
Something they ignore of course.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 09:37 AM
link   

Originally posted by faceoff85
People dont have an immortal soul... when dead you're dead. God can bring you back into existence just like Jesus (through the power of his father) revived Lazarus. God revived Jesus from the dead as well...

Hell is purely a fabrication of the church. The word Hell cannot be found in the bible. The words used to create the concept of hell are Hades, Sjeool and Gehenna. all 3 are meant symbolically just like when you'd say you made someone bite the dust... SYMBOLICAL...


Sounds like you have half a theology instead of a complete one.

Let's talk Jesus for a moment.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 09:41 AM
link   

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Hell is greatly debated historically in Christianity. Is it a literal place, a state of being, is it eternal or limited, can one escape it after death, etc.

Regardless of what "it" is "it" is something that Christ has paid the ultimate price for so that we can escape "it". He did this out of love when He did not have to. He chose to give us the ability to return to light and escape darkness.

I have to allow my kids to make choices that I may not agree with and for them to experience the consequences, good or bad, of those choices.

Sometimes parents even have to allow children to make choices they know will be pure hell to their lives.

My belief, from reading the scriptures, is that God is the same (even more so) and very often it is the hell we put ourselves in that brings us to the end of our prideful selves and leads us back to the light that is in Christ alone.


Please look at the post just above. I ask you to comment on Jesus from that POV.

FMPOV, you are trying to profit from the murder of an innocent man and that that is not a moral position.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 09:45 AM
link   

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


There is a reason why agnosticism is untheological. Even Satan knows God exists and we can read the eternal separation that is to be prepared for him and his angels in John's revelation. Therefor we know salvation isn't based on knowing He exists but on Faith in His Grace through Jesus, His example to us of His Love and desire for us.

Theologically, Hell is the term used for the absence of or separation from God. Hell exists as the antithesis to God's presence much like how in light, no darkness can abide. If you don't want God then spending eternity without Him and all He is would be the judgment whereby one has judged one's self in this life and the decision is made while we yet call it today.

Hell theologically exists because God theologically exists and that apart from His omnipotence.



If God is as shown in the bible, then any sane man would want to be separated from that genocidal son murdering psychopath.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Care to speak to God's so called justice?

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 09:51 AM
link   

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx
[.


I repeated some of your points above before reading your post.

Good thinking friend.
Strange how believers only read what they want to read in scriptures while totally ignoring parts they do not like.
They only know half of God and he seems to hate everyone that they do.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 09:57 AM
link   

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

Hell is theologically impossible if God is omnipotent.

The simple solution would be that God is not omnipotent, and neither is anyone else, including whoever created the universe. They could create a universe, but could not make one that made everyone happy all the time.
God, or the gods (take your pick but it is all a matter of terminology) are as powerful a being as you are going to find in this universe because most likely what created the universe expended itself in the creation of it, and no longer exists.


No argument here friend.

If there was a God who wanted relevance to man then he would not be hiding in a book.

That may be why the Jews saw their messiah as a man. Something Christianity has tried to cover up or ignore. Even to the point of ignoring Jesus' family. If they are actually real.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 09:59 AM
link   

Originally posted by berenike
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Or perhaps 'omnipotent' and 'omnipresent' aren't accurate descriptions of God?

I think people run into trouble when they try and make their god bigger and more powerful than everyone else's - the argument becomes illogical and difficult to sustain.


Difficult!

I would say impossible.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 10:03 AM
link   

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
reply to post by berenike
 


Furthermore, theologically speaking, hell is not a place from which God is to be absent. Rather, hell is nothingness because God has chosen to be eternally absent.

.


So how is it we, eh, religions that is, know so much about him?

Are you suggesting that it is all made up stories?

You would be right if you are.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 10:07 AM
link   

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


"Hell" is a prison built to house the Fallen Angels who rebelled against the Father. He created it to hold them , so it exists. Omnipotence means he has the power to do whatever he wishes but he excercises wisdom in using that power. He has what humans do not and that is wisdom.

He is long suffering but that will come to an end one day and the "proof" of his existence the world seeks so badly shall be shown to them as it was shown to the Israelites who provoked him during the Provocation. I promise you, the world will not like that proof. On that day there will be many a person who will curse the day their mothers gave birth to them.


Quite the view you have there with your head right up God's ass.

Take it out and look at reality.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 10:10 AM
link   

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
We need to distinguish most carefully between the Lake of Fire, which is presented in the Bible as a very real place, and Hell, which is built up on supposition. Given that, is this place for the cursed a place of:

Eternal Punishment?

Eternal Destruction?

Purification?

Your view of God will determine your view of the Lake of Fire or Hell:

Is He a God of wrath?

Is He a God of mercy?

Is He a God of love?

We see in the Bible that God's wrath passes in time, so the punishment must be temporary.

We see in the Bible that God's mercy always follows the wrath, so He will pull the cursed out of the fire.

We see in the Bible that God's love is eternal, so the cursed will be restored.

All will be saved, but each in his/her own order, and some will take a lot of purification...

Remember that Israel was punished, and driven off into exile, but yet given the promise of restoration. I see that as a type for all mankind.


Sure beats what Christianity postulates from within their delusional thinking.
They just cannot let go of their tribal hate for those not of their ilk.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 10:30 AM
link   
You seem to have a point to your reasoning ,but you forgot one thing that this all mighty all powerful deity gave us.thats the ability to choose weather we accept him. With god nothing is impossible.



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 11:11 AM
link   

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
reply to post by berenike
 



Philosophically speaking, to say God "Is" Omnipresent is to imply that omnipresence confines God, orders Him to be everywhere at all times however such is not the case if God is to be omnipotent. The decision to be here or there or everywhere when and how He desires is completely up to the Omnipotent. Therefore, what should be said is that God "can" be omnipresent for it is not beyond the power of a righteous omnipotent God to separate from himself unrighteousness, sin, and darkness while choosing to be absent from it forever.

Furthermore, theologically speaking, hell is not a place from which God is to be absent. Rather, hell is nothingness because God has chosen to be eternally absent.

So we see that God can in fact exist as omnipotent, and omnipresent while still being God.


Thank you for your reply - just about tied my head in a knot


To be slightly facetious, if God in his omnipotence decides not to be omnipresent at all times then christians should stop telling their children to behave because God will see them.

The kid could be naughty at just the time when God isn't looking - way to go kids, you might be lucky and get away with it


I'll be honest here, I don't think I should have contributed anything to this thread - it's not really my area. It's interesting to read though.

This from Greatest I Am pretty much sums up my thinking of the christian concept of eternal hell, punishment and judgement by God:




To judge a man who has not been given full disclosure and has only been given hearsay or bible say, all hearsay, is quite immoral.




edit on 11-1-2012 by berenike because: edited to add a point



new topics

top topics



 
3
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join