Hell is theologically impossible if God is omnipotent.

reply to post by Greatest I am

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

This above or God creates evil things that are not perfect.
Your choice.

The word here translated, work, in the Greek version, means business, so it is not about a thing he made as a work but His employment, so to speak, which is divine judge, not so much, maker.

If God rescued everyone before they did anyyhing evil there would be no free will.

It is up to ourselves and ourselves alone to save us. I risk being called an anti christ for saying this but who cares it is the truth. To unlock the insight of our own mind is to turn the mind inward and behold the simplicity of that which sees but is unseen. Our consciousness is immaterial and that is our true spirit. Anything sqid of God in terms of language is a duality and can not describe Gods Unified existence.This is what should be taught.

reply to post by filosophia


What source material are you using to construct your philosophy of free will?

reply to post by Greatest I am

If Jesus visited Noah, Noah would have never built or finished the ark.

Jesus would have told him to do unto others. If one is doing with others in mind, he would never build something that would facilitate the genocide of man. Noah would have done the right thing and told God where to shove his genocidal fit and to do the right thing and cure instead of kill those he thought defective, exactly like a Jesus character would do.

Jesus would have been constrained and only allowed to do what the eternal spirit (whatever that is) permitted him to do, which was spiritual things, and not things in the physical realm where he could have prevented the flood. So Jesus would have been allowed to offer the people of the time an opportunity to repent of their sinfulness.

reply to post by Greatest I am

I do not know if God is real.

I know God is real, I just don't know how real some of the explanations of God we have are.

reply to post by berenike


You could try to imagine a spiritual black hole that sucks up souls and grinds them up into nothing and reassembles them in another sector of the universe. The thing we would be concerned with is not getting caught in the field of that vortex and loose our existence as an individual identity and I think that is what God represents, the eternal identity that has never been recycled since the universe came into being. We want to attach ourselves to God spiritually to counteract the suction from the grinder.

reply to: jmdewey60

I'm on the page that the soul is eternal and incarnates according to its needs. No soul is bigger or better than any other and we all agree on this reality before we incarnate here.

What we believe when we get here is pretty much what works for us - that's why I wouldn't try and deny someone else their beliefs, although I might try to explain why my beliefs were different. Or why their beliefs wouldn't make much sense to me.

I only really fall out with those who insist on trying to convert other people. We all know the type - they'll just walk up to a complete stranger confident that the other person will need their help to find god. It doesn't seem to occur to them that the other person might have a complete belief system that actually works better for that individual than anything they have to offer.

And frightening people with the idea of eternal hell and damnation is a definite no-no, particularly when the reasons that people might end up there are so unfair and illogical.

reply to post by berenike

No soul is bigger or better than any other and we all agree on this reality before we incarnate here.

I don't remember making an agreement, or coming to a certain understanding, before coming into existence and I don't think that even makes sense that you agree to something before you exist.
I would imagine that once you do exist, there is an option available to not exist but I would also imagine that for a majority of the population of souls, there would be a natural inclination to continue to exist regardless of the circumstances.
I may also have to accept the concept that there are people who have no interest in existing and would be happy to be annihilated and their very memory of ever existing be forgotten and to let someone else use that energy or whatever that had given them life up till now.
Of course I do not buy into that sort of thinking because I do not believe in their being a shortage of raw materiel to make souls to where we somehow need to pass on that potential. And I find the very idea completely ridiculous.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by berenike

 

No soul is bigger or better than any other and we all agree on this reality before we incarnate here.

I don't remember making an agreement, or coming to a certain understanding, before coming into existence and I don't think that even makes sense that you agree to something before you exist.
I would imagine that once you do exist, there is an option available to not exist but I would also imagine that for a majority of the population of souls, there would be a natural inclination to continue to exist regardless of the circumstances.
I may also have to accept the concept that there are people who have no interest in existing and would be happy to be annihilated and their very memory of ever existing be forgotten and to let someone else use that energy or whatever that had given them life up till now.
Of course I do not buy into that sort of thinking because I do not believe in their being a shortage of raw materiel to make souls to where we somehow need to pass on that potential. And I find the very idea completely ridiculous.

edit on 13-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

You missed out the part where I said that the soul was eternal - existing for eternity. 'Before' and 'after' it incarnates here.

Very likely there are people who 'have no interest in existing and would be happy to be annihilated' - I've felt that way very often myself. At this level. That is how I've felt as a human being when life has put me in despair.

As an eternal being, that isn't how I feel. As I said, I believe that each soul incarnates according to its needs and I have to suggest that a soul will likely want to experience life in many different ways, including a life that is challenging.

It is difficult to remember who we are and how we agreed to this reality, but I'd suggest this reality depends on us to agree to it before it can exist. A person who believes in the christian god has decided that their one god creates everything. I think we all do

reply to post by berenike

You missed out the part where I said that the soul was eternal - existing for eternity. 'Before' and 'after' it incarnates here.

I left out a lot of stuff and I was not trying to repudiate what you said so much but more to address some more general issues involved in who and what and why we are.

A person who believes in the christian god has decided that their one god creates everything.

I have my doubts about that. I think those are Medieval additions that people think is just part of the package and have not gotten around to question or are afraid it would be loosing faith.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

I have my doubts about that. I think those are Medieval additions that people think is just part of the package and have not gotten around to question or are afraid it would be loosing faith.

That's an interesting point. I've often thought that the religion as it is today owes possibly more to 'medieval' thought than ancient middle eastern, for want of a better way to put it.

I think the Victorian influence is strong too. Maybe by that late in the day the ptb had had more chance to refine it as a tool for keeping people in line?

As I've said, this isn't really my thing, I'm hazy on the finer details, but the early christians appeared to be a bit more bolshie and prepared to challenge the ruling class than the majority of them are now. I suppose the various inquisitions and burning of heretics, together with the hellfire and damnation they were threatened with has kept them in line.

Particularly the 'hell' thing since torture and burning became frowned on. Well, publicly anyway.

reply to post by berenike

As I've said, this isn't really my thing, I'm hazy on the finer details, but the early christians appeared to be a bit more bolshie and prepared to challenge the ruling class than the majority of them are now.

Most people are "hazy" but I think you get the general idea. Most Christians don't realize they are followers of the beast's religion and don't even know what the original Christianity was about.

reply to post by Greatest I am


The life of Christ and his disciples and how they literally changed the world even before any of it was written is a testament to how very real and serious the matter is. Not only that but, as i've mentioned in other threads, nature itself tells us that live men don't die for dead men, that a live dog is better than a dead lion. Apart from written word, theirs lives and faith had an impact on the entire world.

Now as far as sacrifice goes, God Himself was the first to shed blood making clothes for to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve thus requiring by law the same acts from men for remission of sins which makes the idea Just, not Immoral. Then, instead of leaving us in such a way, He sacrificed His own son because He loves us so that no longer were we to live under righteousness through works, but under righteousness through faith.

Adam and Eve chose to sin; forcing God's hand. Of course we want to be like God. We're made in His image after all. Nevertheless, God knew this and had already made a way for us to return to the way He created us....eternal. Again, we choose, denying God yet He offers us redemption which hardly makes Him an immoral, genocidal, son-murdering, psychopath.

Your anger is blinding and shows an evident lack of personal study. What or who has hurt you so badly that you deny the Love of our Father?

reply to post by berenike




God is all knowing. He doesn't have to see to know that we are all sinners because we are. That's why He has offered us salvation through the shed blood of His Son.

I do agree somewhat though. Parents shouldn't be telling their kids to not do bad things only because God is watching. Children should be taught to do right because righteousness leads to contentment. Nevertheless, we are going to fall short every once in a while and bad decisions have consequences but that's all the more reason to teach forgiveness and getting back to a place of integrity and respect, or rather a life well lived. There's much more to the equation but I'll stop there for everybody's sake

And I'm glad you contributed. It's nice to have a smile when such serious bashing and derision are going on simply because someone who has actually read the Bible believes it to be true.

Isn't that like your quote? To first judge a man's level of disclosure and then belittle him for something of which one obviously displays no understanding?

Isn't it funny how we find our own seemingly wise words accusing us of the very things of which we are guilty?

Peace to you friend.

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I think you have it all wrong.God doesn't give you a choice.he gives you the right to choose. A tyrant would not give the right to choose. There are only two choices. Self and God. What other choices could there be?

Freedom and self-ownership or slave to a genocidal maniac who had his own son murdered needlessly.

Hmm.

Not a hard choice for anyone who can think.

What is your choice?
Does your God have to have morals or not?
Mine does.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by berenike
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I didn't want to bait someone who had explained their sincerely held belief to me, but to go back to the point of God deciding in his omnipotence whether or not he wanted to be omnipresent.

I made a light-hearted answer but I thought a bit more about it afterwards.

God's omnipresence appears to be something that christians pretty much rely on - after all they expect him to watch over them and to hear when they say their prayers.

If, in his omnipotence he has decided against being omnipresent then he has become unreliable. How will they know that he is ever watching? He might have turned his attentions elsewhere completely.

The way the God has been structured makes some of the beliefs almost indefensible unless you twist logic - but there always seems to be an answer for everything. It's just that the answers very often suit or satisfy the person who is expressing their belief and few other people.

I'm not an atheist - more of a polytheist, and have found a logic and consistency in other beliefs that I just find missing in a religion that denies any sort of duality. It's hard to fathom a god who, it is claimed, is only good, knows everything and there is only one of him when everywhere around us we can see cruelty and evil.

But that's ok, we can blame it on a devil who, after all, is a creation of god. And who can come here to tempt us all to sin so that we can end up in eternal hell. Where it's his duty to punish us - for something he made us do?

But that's ok - we had free-will, provided by a god who surely understands our weaknesses since he created us, so it's our own fault if that's where we end up?

And to re-iterate the point we agree on: free will or not Joe Public relies on his lords and masters to teach him the way of things. If they're corrupt and only teach him what suits them how can he be expected to fathom out the Truth for himself - we're all pretty much 'victims' or our environment, any available education system and those around us. If god chooses not to present himself in a burning bush for all those who are being poorly taught his ways it's extremely immoral to judge us and condemn us to hell if we got it wrong.

Beginning to see here how we're made in god's image. Explains a lot about human nature

Anyway, no disrespect intended to anyone here.

edit on 12-1-2012 by berenike because: (no reason given)

Food for thought for believers, but as you sort of hinted at, they have a hard time with thinking.

Trust that they will disrespect any that use logic and reason.

“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”
Martin Luther

Regards
DL

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

the soul is said to enter the human body at birth and leaves at death. there was an experiment, where scientists were weighing a dieing person and the weight was reduced by a couple of gramms when death occured. the soul seems to have actual mass.

edit on 12-1-2012 by icepack because: (no reason given)

Not sure how this speaks to the O P but if what you say is true, then the anti-abortion crowd should pay attention to your words of the soul entering the body at birth.

I believe in what some call a soul but see it differently and give it life at conception and not at birth.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

You definitively say that God gave free will and that nothing is impossible for him.

Is this first hand information, just hearsay and bible say or just the way you want it?

God is supposed to be un-fathomable.
How is it that you or anyone can fathom what you said about him?

Opportunities may arise where you are presented with other gods to place yourself under and this is where we should have an ability not to.
This is "Bible say".

Strange that God would recognize some other entity and name it God.
One wonders how he would describe himself as better than the other God.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

The point is that God was surprised and found iniquity where he himself must have created it.

Right, your main point was a counter to an earlier post claiming God can not be surprised, so I am nit-picking here, but I feel I need to to keep things straight in a general sort of way, and not just to "win" an argument but to be educational for others who may read this thread.

Scriptures say that God created all things for his pleasure.
He then must have created that iniquity in the first place.
Scripturally speaking, God likes iniquity and it pleases him to see it at work.
Satan was rewarded remember and so was Adam.
The Jews see Eden as man's elevation so iniquity must be good.

If we look at this passage in Ezekiel to mean Adam, we can discuss him, and his sin was to listen to his wife rather than to follow what The Lord had told him.
I was taught a specific version of this story in my church, where Adam was off somewhere and Eve was left alone, while the serpent took this opportunity to seduce her with demonstrations of how nice to look at the fruit was and even having the serpent eat some in front of her to show how it did no harm to him. She eventually became convinced, then ate some and was already doomed before Adam returned to discover this dreadful situation. Once he realized she was going to die, out of love for her, he decided he should go with her to whatever place she was going to. So it is really a tragic love story according to this romantic version popular in my church.
But looking at the actual text, there is nothing to indicate that they were anything other than side by side the whole time.
But, still it could be a love story but a love triangle between Adam loving Eve and The Lord loving Adam and having Eve messing up a great relationship they had before she was around, sitting around naming animals and discussing the universe and everything. So The Lord is a jilted ********** lover as the story plays out.

* possibly offensive word self-censored by author

edit on 12-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Thanks for this.

You say doomed because of the los of eternal life and Eve`s desire to do as scriptures say----

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Let me ask you; is it better to be as God with a moral sense and live a short life, or, is it better to live eternally not ever being as God, having morals and as complete a human being as we can be?

Here is a clip that I think shows us without a moral sense.
The water scene says it all.

www.bing.com...#

Regards
DL

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

This above or God creates evil things that are not perfect.
Your choice.

The word here translated, work, in the Greek version, means business, so it is not about a thing he made as a work but His employment, so to speak, which is divine judge, not so much, maker.

edit on 12-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Scriptures mix the words works and deeds.
To me that would mean that all things that God does are perfect. Christians are always saying we are made perfect but always screw up our perfection with sin. While forgetting original sin of course.

If he does not create perfection, then he has no right to punish us, imperfect creature, for not being perfect and for not doing all things to his perfect standards. Imperfect standards that is.

Right?

Regards
DL