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Hell is theologically impossible if God is omnipotent.

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posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 

"Hell" is a prison built to house the Fallen Angels who rebelled against the Father. He created it to hold them , so it exists.


1 Peter 3:19 (NRSV)
in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison,

That is talking about the people who died in the flood.

2 Peter 2:4 (NRSV)
For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment;

This uses the term, Tartarus, which is only used in the Bible this one time, so leads me to think that this is a special place distinct from a place the spirits of people would go to. No description of this place is given other than being dark. From literature outside the biblical canon, it could be imagined as something like the well of Hades, meaning the very lowest spot possible.

Jude 1:6 (NRSV)
And the angels who did not keep their own position, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgment of the great Day.

This seems to repeating the same source as 2 Peter but adds an explanation of what the sin was, which was assuming a role not set for them.

Matthew 25:41 (NRSV)
Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

This may be the same sort of metaphorical allusion as what we find in Revelation, with the fire, though in this reference to it, it does not give any specifics as to what this fire is, or who prepared it, or what its purpose is.

Nowhere does it say that God created any of this or that it did not already exist as part of the universe's scheme of things.

edit on 11-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 12:10 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

2. Scripture says that God found iniquity in Satan. A surprise that got Satan banished to earth. Banished may be the wrong word as he was rewarded with dominion over mankind.

You are thinking of the verse in Ezekiel 28 where the king of Tyre is compared to a person in Eden who was found to have iniquity in him and some people interpret that to mean Satan but the obvious correct interpretation is that it was referring to Adam.

Ezekiel 28:13 a,b, d,15 (NRSV)
You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, . . . On the day that you were created they were prepared.

You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you.

edit on 11-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth,"
That is a misreading of a verse in Revelation where the entire passage says, 'people who's names were written into the Lamb's book of life (the one who was slain) at the foundation of the world.'

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?
Do you mean, Hell?
What evidence do you have that God created Hell, or for that matter, the universe itself?
It could be that the universe contains within itself a system of disposing of useless things and this is where evil naturally ends up.

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.
We don't know if there was ever a plan like that made by The Lord. It could be that the tree was something which was naturally occurring and came up from the ground over which The Lord had decided to plant his own trees.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?
There apparently was a need and again, it may be something expected to happen naturally if you place an all-good person into the middle of a mostly evil environment.
edit on 11-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

FMPOV, you are trying to profit from the murder of an innocent man and that that is not a moral position.
1 Peter says better that an innocent person dies doing something good.
It goes on to say something that happens through the spirit where Jesus is preaching to the people (or rather their spirits) who were around during the time that Noah was building the Ark.
It could be that the eternal spirit was allowing Jesus to go back in time and be the producer of the prophetic preaching that Noah was saying the words of, the product of an inspiration of Jesus himself, and thus making those people not able to have a claim of innocence.
Jesus was the epitome of innocence and was the judgement necessary against Judaism (actually the old temple cult system, to be specific) to condemn it and to have it abolished and swept away.
edit on 11-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

That may be why the Jews saw their messiah as a man.

And so was their God, or The Lord, or YHWH.
This is why you have YHWH saying, 'Now you have become like us.'
The great cover-up is that The Lord worked with what was already made by these strange, unnamed beings which left the scene as soon as YHWH shows up, who indicated in every way possible that He is exactly like us.



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by icepack
in mythologies humans are not judged at the end of their lives, its the soul. the soul is not human and not mortal, it exists before and after you.


You know this as a fact, how?

I know, no proof, just conjecture.

Regards
DL


its my knowledge about religions and mythology. usualy humans are the mortal and souls are the immortal part that gets judged.



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by Theophorus
You seem to have a point to your reasoning ,but you forgot one thing that this all mighty all powerful deity gave us.thats the ability to choose weather we accept him. With god nothing is impossible.


Accept me or burn forever is a free will choice to you is it?

Sounds more like a threat from a tyrant to me.

Is that a choice your parents gave you as well?
Is that what you have given your children?

You definitively say that God gave free will and that nothing is impossible for him.

Is this first hand information, just hearsay and bible say or just the way you want it?

God is supposed to be un-fathomable.
How is it that you or anyone can fathom what you said about him?

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 07:46 AM
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Originally posted by berenike

This from Greatest I Am pretty much sums up my thinking of the christian concept of eternal hell, punishment and judgement by God:




To judge a man who has not been given full disclosure and has only been given hearsay or bible say, all hearsay, is quite immoral.




edit on 11-1-2012 by berenike because: edited to add a point


I like a man who can think.
Too bad this kind of thing is not your thing.

Christian thinking does too much damage to be ignored.
For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 07:53 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

2. Scripture says that God found iniquity in Satan. A surprise that got Satan banished to earth. Banished may be the wrong word as he was rewarded with dominion over mankind.

You are thinking of the verse in Ezekiel 28 where the king of Tyre is compared to a person in Eden who was found to have iniquity in him and some people interpret that to mean Satan but the obvious correct interpretation is that it was referring to Adam.

Ezekiel 28:13 a,b, d,15 (NRSV)
You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, . . . On the day that you were created they were prepared.

You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you.

edit on 11-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


The point is that God was surprised and found iniquity where he himself must have created it.

Scriptures say that God created all things for his pleasure.
He then must have created that iniquity in the first place.
Scripturally speaking, God likes iniquity and it pleases him to see it at work.
Satan was rewarded remember and so was Adam.
The Jews see Eden as man's elevation so iniquity must be good.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 08:00 AM
link   

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth,"
That is a misreading of a verse in Revelation where the entire passage says, 'people who's names were written into the Lamb's book of life (the one who was slain) at the foundation of the world.'

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?
Do you mean, Hell?
What evidence do you have that God created Hell, or for that matter, the universe itself?
It could be that the universe contains within itself a system of disposing of useless things and this is where evil naturally ends up.

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.
We don't know if there was ever a plan like that made by The Lord. It could be that the tree was something which was naturally occurring and came up from the ground over which The Lord had decided to plant his own trees.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?
There apparently was a need and again, it may be something expected to happen naturally if you place an all-good person into the middle of a mostly evil environment.
edit on 11-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


We cannot analyze a myth if you keep bouncing back and forth comparing it to reality.
Go with the story line.

Your premise is that Jesus was thrown into a world of evil yet if we are to follow the myth of the bible, that is impossible.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

This above or God creates evil things that are not perfect.
Your choice.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

FMPOV, you are trying to profit from the murder of an innocent man and that that is not a moral position.
1 Peter says better that an innocent person dies doing something good.
It goes on to say something that happens through the spirit where Jesus is preaching to the people (or rather their spirits) who were around during the time that Noah was building the Ark.
It could be that the eternal spirit was allowing Jesus to go back in time and be the producer of the prophetic preaching that Noah was saying the words of, the product of an inspiration of Jesus himself, and thus making those people not able to have a claim of innocence.
Jesus was the epitome of innocence and was the judgement necessary against Judaism (actually the old temple cult system, to be specific) to condemn it and to have it abolished and swept away.
edit on 11-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


If Jesus visited Noah, Noah would have never built or finished the ark.

Jesus would have told him to do unto others. If one is doing with others in mind, he would never build something that would facilitate the genocide of man. Noah would have done the right thing and told God where to shove his genocidal fit and to do the right thing and cure instead of kill those he thought defective, exactly like a Jesus character would do.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 08:08 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

I think you have it all wrong.God doesn't give you a choice.he gives you the right to choose. A tyrant would not give the right to choose. There are only two choices. Self and God. What other choices could there be?



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

That may be why the Jews saw their messiah as a man.

And so was their God, or The Lord, or YHWH.
This is why you have YHWH saying, 'Now you have become like us.'
The great cover-up is that The Lord worked with what was already made by these strange, unnamed beings which left the scene as soon as YHWH shows up, who indicated in every way possible that He is exactly like us.


I agree.

God has always been a man.
Man has always been the only God we have.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by icepack

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by icepack
in mythologies humans are not judged at the end of their lives, its the soul. the soul is not human and not mortal, it exists before and after you.


You know this as a fact, how?

I know, no proof, just conjecture.

Regards
DL


its my knowledge about religions and mythology. usualy humans are the mortal and souls are the immortal part that gets judged.


Yet God called man a living soul.

That aside, my question was to this.

" it exists before and after you."

What was my soul doing before me and what will it be doing after me? Or is it me and how do you know this as a fact?

Knowledge of religion is not true knowledge of any sort because none of it has been shown to have any basis in reality.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 08:18 AM
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Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

I think you have it all wrong.God doesn't give you a choice.he gives you the right to choose. A tyrant would not give the right to choose. There are only two choices. Self and God. What other choices could there be?


Let me see.
I know that I am real.
I do not know if God is real.

Hmm. A tough choice that.

What would you choose?
Something you know is real or something that you do not know is real?

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 08:32 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Surly you do know that greater minds exist .this is not a physical attribute. Real? Yes you are. Bit you are not the only being. Self centered yes



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 11:16 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


I didn't want to bait someone who had explained their sincerely held belief to me, but to go back to the point of God deciding in his omnipotence whether or not he wanted to be omnipresent.

I made a light-hearted answer but I thought a bit more about it afterwards.

God's omnipresence appears to be something that christians pretty much rely on - after all they expect him to watch over them and to hear when they say their prayers.

If, in his omnipotence he has decided against being omnipresent then he has become unreliable. How will they know that he is ever watching? He might have turned his attentions elsewhere completely.

The way the God has been structured makes some of the beliefs almost indefensible unless you twist logic - but there always seems to be an answer for everything. It's just that the answers very often suit or satisfy the person who is expressing their belief and few other people.

I'm not an atheist - more of a polytheist, and have found a logic and consistency in other beliefs that I just find missing in a religion that denies any sort of duality. It's hard to fathom a god who, it is claimed, is only good, knows everything and there is only one of him when everywhere around us we can see cruelty and evil.

But that's ok, we can blame it on a devil who, after all, is a creation of god. And who can come here to tempt us all to sin so that we can end up in eternal hell. Where it's his duty to punish us - for something he made us do?

But that's ok - we had free-will, provided by a god who surely understands our weaknesses since he created us, so it's our own fault if that's where we end up?

And to re-iterate the point we agree on: free will or not Joe Public relies on his lords and masters to teach him the way of things. If they're corrupt and only teach him what suits them how can he be expected to fathom out the Truth for himself - we're all pretty much 'victims' or our environment, any available education system and those around us. If god chooses not to present himself in a burning bush for all those who are being poorly taught his ways it's extremely immoral to judge us and condemn us to hell if we got it wrong.

Beginning to see here how we're made in god's image. Explains a lot about human nature


Anyway, no disrespect intended to anyone here.

edit on 12-1-2012 by berenike because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 02:27 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

the soul is said to enter the human body at birth and leaves at death. there was an experiment, where scientists were weighing a dieing person and the weight was reduced by a couple of gramms when death occured. the soul seems to have actual mass.


edit on 12-1-2012 by icepack because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 02:40 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

You definitively say that God gave free will and that nothing is impossible for him.

Is this first hand information, just hearsay and bible say or just the way you want it?

God is supposed to be un-fathomable.
How is it that you or anyone can fathom what you said about him?
Opportunities may arise where you are presented with other gods to place yourself under and this is where we should have an ability not to.
This is "Bible say".



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

The point is that God was surprised and found iniquity where he himself must have created it.

Right, your main point was a counter to an earlier post claiming God can not be surprised, so I am nit-picking here, but I feel I need to to keep things straight in a general sort of way, and not just to "win" an argument but to be educational for others who may read this thread.

Scriptures say that God created all things for his pleasure.
He then must have created that iniquity in the first place.
Scripturally speaking, God likes iniquity and it pleases him to see it at work.
Satan was rewarded remember and so was Adam.
The Jews see Eden as man's elevation so iniquity must be good.
If we look at this passage in Ezekiel to mean Adam, we can discuss him, and his sin was to listen to his wife rather than to follow what The Lord had told him.
I was taught a specific version of this story in my church, where Adam was off somewhere and Eve was left alone, while the serpent took this opportunity to seduce her with demonstrations of how nice to look at the fruit was and even having the serpent eat some in front of her to show how it did no harm to him. She eventually became convinced, then ate some and was already doomed before Adam returned to discover this dreadful situation. Once he realized she was going to die, out of love for her, he decided he should go with her to whatever place she was going to. So it is really a tragic love story according to this romantic version popular in my church.
But looking at the actual text, there is nothing to indicate that they were anything other than side by side the whole time.
But, still it could be a love story but a love triangle between Adam loving Eve and The Lord loving Adam and having Eve messing up a great relationship they had before she was around, sitting around naming animals and discussing the universe and everything. So The Lord is a jilted ********** lover as the story plays out.

* possibly offensive word self-censored by author
edit on 12-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



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