islam: truly an Abrahamic religion?

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi


Really? Plagiarism is the only thing you have to offer. Simple copy and paste?.

Is that Source here that you used?

The reading as it stands in the Masoretic Text, "like a lion" is still the most probable reading, for it fits into the imagery of the whole of Psalm 22 better than the guesses of modern scholars or the ancient translators.

Actually, i have used the Masoretic text, incase you didn´t notice on my previous post.

Peace

Originally posted by Seed76
reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

 

Really? Plagiarism is the only thing you have to offer. Simple copy and paste?.

Is that Source here that you used?

The reading as it stands in the Masoretic Text, "like a lion" is still the most probable reading, for it fits into the imagery of the whole of Psalm 22 better than the guesses of modern scholars or the ancient translators.

Actually, i have used the Masoretic text, incase you didn´t notice on my previous post.

Peace

It's not plagiarism, I don't claim that text is mine.

Since we are talking about the Jewish Scripture - the jewish experts ought to be the best people to analyze them.

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

the jewish experts ought to be the best people to analyze them.

That's true, and why it's important to read what the LXX says, that was 70 of the best Jewish scholars who translated the Hebrew to Greek 3 centuries before Christ.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

 

the jewish experts ought to be the best people to analyze them.

That's true, and why it's important to read what the LXX says, that was 70 of the best Jewish scholars who translated the Hebrew to Greek 3 centuries before Christ.

Yet, that translation does not agree with now found hebrew manuscripts. The word they contain "kaaru" - has an aleph, which the word translated as "pierce" (in fact "dig") cannot have it.

And the story about the "70 of the best jewish scholars" comes from the Letter of Aristeas, which now scholars believe to be composed in 100 BCE, instead of 250 BCE as believed. It is a myth. A pseudepigrapha.

reply to post by SOILDERSUNITEDFORCHRIST


Don't forget the prophecy in Isaiah ch. 63 where the Messiah kills the Edomites and Moabites and his clothes are soaked in their blood when he makes war on them alone in bozrah without his army while the remaining Israelites that escaped the A/C retreat through Jordan. What people populate jordan? The majority of the people in modernday Moab and Edom are muslim. Now if the muslim were really believers in the Messiah would he kill them? No he would not.

Here it is:

Edomites and Moabites die at the hands of Christ in the tribulation

Originally posted by Seed76
reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

 

Actually, i have used the Masoretic text, incase you didn´t notice on my previous post.

Peace

Yet you left out aleph!
You cannot do that.

The word is kaf-aleph-resh-yod - and that means "(like) a lion".
The one translated as "pierce" is kaf-resh-yod - and it still does not mean to pierce, it means TO DIG or TO EXCAVATE.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by SOILDERSUNITEDFORCHRIST

 

Don't forget the prophecy in Isaiah ch. 63 where the Messiah kills the Edomites and Moabites and his clothes are soaked in their blood when he makes war on them alone in bozrah without his army while the remaining Israelites that escaped the A/C retreat through Jordan. What people populate jordan? The majority of the people in modernday Moab and Edom are muslim. Now if the muslim were really believers in the Messiah would he kill them? No he would not.

How exactly did you make this a prophecy about Messiah. And in Edom and Moab live jews too, you know.

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

Yet you left out aleph!
You cannot do that.

The word is kaf-aleph-resh-yod - and that means "(like) a lion".
The one translated as "pierce" is kaf-resh-yod - and it still does not mean to pierce, it means TO DIG or TO EXCAVATE.

In Root Form (Hebrew) it is read : keleb cabab `edah ra`a` naqaph kuwr yad regel
Here is the verse : as picture.


And here is the word :

If you have bothered clicking at the source, you would see that both meanings are there.Here is the source which i used : Source

Peace

Originally posted by Seed76


If you have bothered clicking at the source, you would see that both meanings are there.Here is the source which i used : Source

Peace

I have clicked that. You can STILL NOT SIMPLY REMOVE ALEPH and strip to the most basic root.
Are you aware how many words you can construct from a root??

The arabic root word "tabbat" (ta-alif-ba-ta) for example has up to 50 meanings!

The same is valid for any semitic language (hebrew, aramaic, etc.).

The fact is the word there is WRITTEN with aleph - which automatically renders it as "like a lion"

If we now start stripping the written(!) words to its root - everything can mean anything.

You can construct from the same root word a number of words which have completely different meanings.


A simple sentence, like "Today is a fine day" - can become, if one uses the root words only - to any of this:

"Now is a dry period"

or

"Present is good time"


or anything ..

Originally posted by sHuRuLuNi

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by SOILDERSUNITEDFORCHRIST

 

Don't forget the prophecy in Isaiah ch. 63 where the Messiah kills the Edomites and Moabites and his clothes are soaked in their blood when he makes war on them alone in bozrah without his army while the remaining Israelites that escaped the A/C retreat through Jordan. What people populate jordan? The majority of the people in modernday Moab and Edom are muslim. Now if the muslim were really believers in the Messiah would he kill them? No he would not.

How exactly did you make this a prophecy about Messiah. And in Edom and Moab live jews too, you know.

The Israelites are his people. I didn't make it about the Messiah, Isaiah did. Read it. Isaiah is being allowed to see what transpires on that day. All that talk about trampling people and getting bloody...is the Messiah. Watch the 15 part video series, chuck goes into detail and chronicles the books in the bible this whole thing relates to for referrences.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Isaiah is being allowed to see what transpires on that day.

Yep, Isaiah foresaw many things, like this for example:

An oracle concerning Arabia:

You caravans of Dedanites,
who camp in the thickets of Arabia,
bring water for the thirsty;
you who live in Tema,
bring food for the fugitives.
They flee from the sword,
from the drawn sword,
from the bent bow
and from the heat of battle.
This is what the Lord says to me: “Within one year, as a servant bound by contract would count it, all the pomp of Kedar will come to an end. - Isaiah 21:13-16

Tema is Medina (according to Bible).
Kedar is the ancestor of the arabs, the Kureish Tribe (according to Bible)
Muhammad and his followers were forced to migrate from Makkah to Medina, they fled "from the drawn sword".
The inhabitants of Medina (Tema) welcomed them, gave them bread and water.

Exactly ONE YEAR after this, "all the glory of Kedar came to an end" - when the muslims defeated the Kureish (the children of Kedar), even as muslims were only about 300 infantry, and the kureish were over 1000 soldiers with many horsemen.

You see, THIS is one PRECISE prophecy.



Or, how about this one:

"And he (Moses) said, the Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came withten thousands of saints; from his right hand went a fiery law for them." (Deuteronomy 33: 2)

In this verse, the Lord (through his Prophets/Messengers) is compared with the sun. He comes from Sinai, he rises from Seir, but he shines in his full glory from Paran (Mecca), where he appear with ten thousands of saints (followers) with a fiery law (Quran) in his right hand.

“He comes from Sinai” refers to Moses. “He rises from Seir (mountain in Palestine)” refers to Jesus. "He shines in his full glory from Paran (Mecca)" refers to prophet Mohammad.

None of the Israelites, including Jesus, had anything to do with Paran (Mecca). Please note also the order in which the three locations are mentioned, Sinai, Seir, and Paran. This is a further indication that the prophet from Paran will appear after Jesus.

"While he (Ishmael) was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother (Hagar) got a wife for him from Egypt." (Genesis 21: 17-21)

Ishmael, through his second-born child, Kedar, gave descent to the Arabs of Paran (Mecca). The other Arabs are descendents of Ishmael’s other children.

“And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.” (Genesis 25: 13-16)

Since Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم traces his ancestry to Ishmael through Kedar and he appeared as a prophet in the wilderness of Paran (Mecca) and re-entered Mecca victoriously with ten thousand followers, in a bloodless conquest, after 8 years of having to flee from Mecca and migrate to Medina, and brought a fiery law (Quran) from God, isn’t the prophecy above-mentioned fulfilled to its very letter?

The mention of "he came with 10,000 saints" in Deuteronomy 33 is very significant. Read the whole history of the wilderness of Paran and you will find no other similar event in which Mecca was conquered. Prophet Muhammad comes with 10,000 followers from Medina and re-enters Mecca. He gives the fiery law to the world, which reduced to ashes all other laws.

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

I have clicked that. You can STILL NOT SIMPLY REMOVE ALEPH and strip to the most basic root.
Are you aware how many words you can construct from a root??

Wow, that's remarkable then that the 70 best Hebrew scholars of the day in 270 BC managed to miss that, and apparently conspired to make Isaiah 53 more "Christiany" three centuries before the man was born. That's remarkable.

And we're talking about the Septuagint (LXX) here.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

 

I have clicked that. You can STILL NOT SIMPLY REMOVE ALEPH and strip to the most basic root.
Are you aware how many words you can construct from a root??

Wow, that's remarkable then that the 70 best Hebrew scholars of the day in 270 BC managed to miss that, and apparently conspired to make Isaiah 53 more "Christiany" three centuries before the man was born. That's remarkable.

And we're talking about the Septuagint (LXX) here.

edit on 10-1-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

You are talking about one version. I am talking about another.

Why don't you read my post above yours - refute that.

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

I have clicked that. You can STILL NOT SIMPLY REMOVE ALEPH and strip to the most basic root.
Are you aware how many words you can construct from a root??

First, please drop your accusations, because i haven´t removed anything. Pics above and the source shows that. Now, if you really have bothered to check the source which i provided. First you would have noticed :
Second :
Thirdly :
Fourthly :
Which bring us to :
And thus resulting :


So to repeat again the source : In Root Form (Hebrew) it is read : keleb cabab `edah ra`a` naqaph kuwr yad regel See pic above.
If you don´t agree, then that´s your problem and not mine. But please refrain from baseless and childish accusations.

Peace

Psalm 22:1 "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Fulfilled literally by Christ in Aramaic in the NT, Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 both record this.


Psalm 22:8 "He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him": let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him."

Fulfilled literally in Matthew 27:14


Psalm 22:14 "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax;
it is melted in the midst of my bowels."

Fulfilled when He looked down at the ground, His shed blood was pooled under His feet, oftentimes crucified men lost their bowels in the process of death.


Psalm 22:18 " They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture."

Fulfilled literally, in His sight as He hung on the cross and recorded in: Matthew 27:35, Mark 15:24, Luke 23:34, and John 19:24.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

 

Thus, as per Jesus saying, the Qur'an cannot be from Devil.
If you deny that, you are going AGAINST JESUS.

Jesus never said that. The Quran denies God has a Son and denies Jesus died for your sins. That's from the devil.

Jesus himself never said he died for our sins afaik plus he called us not to associate partners with G-d.If I am not mistaken there were even christian "sects" some time after Jesus is "gone" that don't believe he is indeed crucified