Christians....I'm SICK of them

Many Western Christians, Thundy observes, are unduly disturbed when it is suggested that the gospel writers may have borrowed literary motifs from the East (p. 44). Even though the gospel writers use unacknowledged Buddhist and other subtexts they do not appear to be doing so; this is because these writers make these subtexts as their own original text (p. 46).

In Thundy´s opinion, the Christian gospel writers did not use any particular version of the Buddha-story from beginning to end from a literary text, but rather at random and selectively from oral traditions (p. 79).

www.jesusisbuddha.com...

So, gabby, you still did not answer my question. What are you afraid of?

And sac, why do you refuse to acknowledge the scholars who have worked so hard to establish these parallels?

reply to post by wildtimes


Gnostics seem to agree with you as well...

The Best of the Sons of Men
Ancient scrolls reveal that Jesus spent seventeen years in India and Tibet
From age thirteen to age twenty-nine, he was both a student and teacher of Buddhist and Hindu holy men
The story of his journey from Jerusalem to Benares was recorded by Brahman historians
Today they still know him and love him as St. Issa. Their 'buddha'
In 1894 Nicolas Notovitch published a book called The Unknown Life of Christ. He was a Russian doctor who journeyed extensively throughout Afghanistan, India, and Tibet. Notovitch journeyed through the lovely passes of Bolan, over the Punjab, down into the arid rocky land of Ladak, and into the majestic Vale of Kashmir of the Himalayas. During one of his jouneys he was visiting Leh, the capital of Ladak, near where the buddhist convent Himis is. He had an accident that resulted in his leg being broken. This gave him the unscheduled opportunity to stay awhile at the Himis convent.

Notovitch learned, while he was there, that there existed ancient records of the life of Jesus Christ. In the course of his visit at the great convent, he located a Tibetan translation of the legend and carefully noted in his carnet de voyage over two hundred verses from the curious document known as "The Life of St. Issa."

He was shown two large yellowed volumes containing the biography of St. Issa. Notovitch enlisted a member of his party to translate the Tibetan volumes while he carefully noted each verse in the back pages of his journal.

When he returned to the western world there was much controversy as to the authenticity of the document. He was accused of creating a hoax and was ridiculed as an imposter. In his defense he encouraged a scientific expedition to prove the original tibetan documents existed.

One of his skeptics was Swami Abhedananda. Abhedananda journeyed into the arctic region of the Himalayas, determined to find a copy of the Himis manuscript or to expose the fraud. His book of travels, entitled Kashmir O Tibetti, tells of a visit to the Himis gonpa and includes a Bengali translation of two hundred twenty-four verses essentially the same as the Notovitch text. Abhedananda was thereby convinced of the authenticity of the Issa legend.

reluctant-messenger.com...

The issue here is few "christians" will read anything outside their own bible... or read it at all for that matter...

At least on ATS we do have readers...

Or they wouldn't be here

reply to post by Akragon


Thanks, akra

I posted that same info on the thread about "The Christmas Hoax: Jesus is not the reason for the season"...and I really don't get what is so upsetting about it to them.

It just seems so ... well....naive.
I guess that's the best term. Or perhaps "young souls." Not yet to the point of being ready to seek outside of their teachers' indoctrinations.

This is an interesting site, and one I'm going to look into further:
teachings-of-jesus-christ.org...

And ETA: Have you read this one? It's marvelous...
Secret Splendor: The Journey Within by Charles Earnest Essert
c, 1973 by Acropolis Books.
www.amazon.com...

11 of 11 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars One of the very best of its type, July 3, 2001
By A Customer

This review is from: Secret Splendor: The Journey Within (Paperback)
www.amazon.com...
I've been unable to find out much about the author, who died before this book was originally published in 1974. He was apparently a very unusual character, a bit of a drifter and a misfit.

He tinkered with the book until his death, and it was published through the efforts of a friend who had the sole surviving copy of the manuscript. The author was entirely self-educated in regard to spiritual matters, but he obviously read widely, thought deeply and had a definite spiritual awakening (which he describes). The book is extremely well-written; you need not fear that this will be anything like the New Age fluff published today. It's fairly short (128 pages in my copy) but packed with insights.

Based on a great deal of reading and study of my own, I'm impressed that this author has nailed "What It's All About" as clearly and concisely as anyone I've encountered. His basic thesis is that Ultimate Reality is beyond the ability of our rationale, thinking minds to grasp and can only be discovered intuitively.

His thinking is very much in line with the idea of "Cosmic Consciouness," as described in the book of that title by Richard Maurice Bucke (and his awakening was of precisely the sort described in Bucke's book). My brief description doesn't do justice to the depth of the author's thinking, but suffice it to say that you owe it to yourself to read and reread this if you consider yourself any sort of a "seeker."

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Akragon

 

Thanks, akra

I posted that same info on the thread about "The Christmas Hoax: Jesus is not the reason for the season"...and I really don't get what is so upsetting about it to them.

It just seems so ... well....naive.
I guess that's the best term. Or perhaps "young souls." Not yet to the point of being ready to seek outside of their teachers' indoctrinations.

This is an interesting site, and one I'm going to look into further:
teachings-of-jesus-christ.org...

My pleasure bro...

Funny you said "young souls"....

Check this out...

Originally posted by wildtimes

Many Western Christians, Thundy observes, are unduly disturbed when it is suggested that the gospel writers may have borrowed literary motifs from the East (p. 44). Even though the gospel writers use unacknowledged Buddhist and other subtexts they do not appear to be doing so; this is because these writers make these subtexts as their own original text (p. 46).

In Thundy´s opinion, the Christian gospel writers did not use any particular version of the Buddha-story from beginning to end from a literary text, but rather at random and selectively from oral traditions (p. 79).

www.jesusisbuddha.com...

So, gabby, you still did not answer my question. What are you afraid of?

And sac, why do you refuse to acknowledge the scholars who have worked so hard to establish these parallels?

I am not disagreeing with the facts. I am however disagreeing with the assumption.

The fact is that modern Buddhism along with many other modern religions teach a message similar to, and in some cases identical to Christ. This is a well know fact. There is no dispute.

The assumption is that these religions existed exactly as they are today before Christ. This is simply an assumption. Outside of one flood story, and this only proves the flood story, there is no evidence to suggest that these religions did not adapt to the message of Christ. Not one manuscript from ANY religion that can be compared to Christ dates prior to the ministry of Christ. So if the earliest manuscripts are found after Christ it would appear that all roads lead to Christ.

When presented with 2 possibilities the simplest is usually the right choice. Christ is the simple answer. Don’t you think that there we be at least one document stating that the story of Christ and the resurrection were untrue, if indeed they did not happen, and instead the story was stolen from other pre existing religions? Something that dates from at least the first couple of centuries AD?

I don’t like to get frustrated but I get tired of being told all the facts.
Old earth is an assumption – believe what you like
Evolution is an assumption – believe what you like
The bible story stolen from other religions – believe what you like

I will stick with the truth. The earth is about 6000 years old, everything was created, and the flood is the only natural occurrence that can account for the amount and types of fossils we find. The entire Old Testament, with fragments available that predate Christ, is the story of Christ. Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies from a book that predated his birth. Jesus is the son of God, which is why he was the first to perform the miracles that he performed. He is the inspiration for almost every major world religion.

You cannot prove anyone of those statements false. You can only make assumptions based on poor science and misguided logic.

What is more logical, God loves us but gave us know way to know how to find him.

This is all some kind of sick game for God who really doesn’t care if we find him.

Or God loves us, sent his son to us to show us what he wants for us. Gives us the freedom to learn on our own in a safe environment where are spirit cannot die. He gave us one book, made sure that it not only was the first book to hit the modern printing press but ensured that enough copies of it would be published In enough languages that every man woman and child could have their own.

Just the sheer number of bibles that have been printed should be enough to convince you that the book is being printed by the power of God. Just the sheer number of bibles that have been printed should be enough to convince you that the book is being printed by the power of God. It is if he is screaming at us read me please? Practically begging us to look for him, making it almost impossible not to find him. All this with the promise that if you read with a faithful heart he will interpret it for you and prove to you he is real.

A loving god that has provided a simple path. What are you afraid of? I know that Christ lives in you Wildtimes, and you never have to prove it to me because you already have. If I say that god has taught me these things through his spirit and I show you love by telling you, you are my equal in Christ even though you reject the message, what are you struggling with?

You have already taken so many of the steps that your heart has prompted you to take. You can love like Christ, You can gain a freedom from the worldly and become something new. Something that you cannot know until you believe that God can do anything. I have made my appeal to you many times, beause you are already there you just can't see it yet.

The path; one law, one book, one son, one Father. The law is love, the book is the bible, the son is Jesus, and there is only one Father.

reply to post by Akragon


I will read your thread...funny it was posted the day before I joined...EDIT...WAIT, NO, the DAY that I joined!

did you see my edited post above yours?

Secret Splendor....Charles Earnest Essert, 1973 Acropolis Books....

Cheers!

reply to post by wildtimes


Yes i saw it...

I don't really read books... i only read for knowledge...

reply to post by sacgamer25

You have already taken so many of the steps that your heart has prompted you to take. You can love like Christ, You can gain a freedom from the worldly and become something new. Something that you cannot know until you believe that God can do anything. I have made my appeal to you many times, beause you are already there you just can't see it yet.

But....I am already there and I do see it. So did Jesus Christ, and all of the spiritual teachers before and after him.
Why is it so important that I cast aside the teachings of all those other teachers saying the same thing, when they got me to the same place?

He wasn't the only one teaching it, sacgamer. He just wasn't. But I appreciate your concern, and I'll go ahead with my seeking....
I know in my heart what the truth is. And calling it poor science and misguided logic is your .... uh.... dare I say, assumption?....yes, I dare.

That is your assumption.
I wish you peace, sibling begotten of the Holy Spirit, the Divine Oneness. Thanks for your time and effort in sharing.

--wt

reply to post by sacgamer25

ed on 13-1-2012 @ 12:05 PM this post
Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall


Care to define this "Holy Spirit?" I have had many arguments and debates over this matter, and most agree that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Creator(ess), so it indwells in every human being.


You are incorrect. I will not define Him for you. Let the Word of GOD define the Holy Spirit to you.
The Holy Spirit does not dwell in every human being. The Holy Spirit is a Gift to those who accept Jesus Christ as their GOD, King, Saviour and friend. He is their "seal" that they are saved.


Believe in him, what does that mean?

Actually it is those who believe in him. This would mean to believe in what he said. What he says is anyone who listens to my words and puts them into practice.

Even the demons know who Jesus is and believe in him for he is real.

Only those that follow his commands prove that they believe in him.
For example if someone is still worried more about tomorrow than the good they can do today they don’t believe.
If one does not love their enemy than they don’t believe in him.
If one does not hate themselves (feels real remorse for the sins they have committed), and fully submit to God and pray for a change of heart, they have not believed in him.

To receive baptism of the Holy Spirit one must truly believe and trust Jesus with everything.

Many people have been fooled by saying accept grace be water baptized and you are saved, and this may be true.

But if you truly want to receive the baptism of Christ you have to believe in him, not by just saying it, but by proving it. You must accept Grace and follow his commands.

Circumcision, Water Baptism, and saying you believe Christ was real, these are all outward signs.
It is only by picking up your cross, nailing your will to the Cross as Christ did for his father, and repenting (which literally means changing your ways), that you prove that you believe in Christ.

Jesus NEVER, NEVER, NEVER said this. Accept Grace try and be a better person but ultimately you will always be a sinner so be happy you have grace. It is the church that has said this. This is false doctrine that does not agree with Christ.

What Jesus does say is accept Grace and separate yourself from the things that make you unclean.

If you cannot understand these verses but you want to live free from sin, repent and follow Christ. If you do this you will receive the blessing of the baptism of Holy Spirit and you will live up to these verses. Have faith.


John 8:34, 36 Whosoever 34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

I John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.


Listen, everyone God is calling us to the truth. A true believer of anything puts into practice those things that he believes are true. If you believe the words are of Christ are true, become a true believer by following his commands. Stop listening to men and start listening to Jesus.


John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.

Mathew 7: 21-23 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


Read these verses as many times as you need to so that you may not fall into the trap that the world has set for you. Simply SAYING LORD DOES NOT GUARANTEE you heaven, doing the will of the father is what gets you into heaven. WAKE UP and start listening to Jesus, he is calling you.

Well said. I agree 100%. God Bless you brother.

reply to post by sacgamer25

The fact is that modern Buddhism along with many other modern religions teach a message similar to, and in some cases identical to Christ. This is a well know fact. There is no dispute.

Buddhism is not a "modern" religion, though. It's an ancient one, that has taught the same thing since before Christ, and since Christ. Can you please refer me to sources that say it is a "modern" religion? And where "modern" Buddhism says that Jesus Christ is the One and Only Begotten Son of God and that believing he was is the only gate is crucial to salvation?

Buddhism predates Christianty, sacgamer. Why won't you acknowledge that?

Contemporary research

Contemporary research still points to perceived similarities between Buddhism and Christianity.

Zacharias P. Thundy concludes that there was a substantial amount of borrowing by Christianity from Buddhism. He prefers not to label Jesus either a Jew, Buddhist or a Buddhist-Jew, claiming that such distinctions are "fuzzy". Thundy further claims a long tradition of interchange between east and west and shows that western fables, such as those in Aesop's fables, and the story of Susans attached to the Book of Daniel, were originally Buddhist Jatakas.[16]

en.wikipedia.org...
With respect,
--wild

hhdl.dharmakara.net...

Q: If we have committed a serious negative act, how can we let go of the feeling of guilt that may follow?
A: In such situations, where there is a danger of feeling guilty and therefore depressed, the Buddhist point of view advises adopting certain ways of thinking and behaving which will enable you to recover your self-confidence. A Buddhist may reflect on the nature of the mind of. a Buddha, on its essential purity, and in what way disturbing thoughts and their subsequent emotions are of an entirely different nature. Because such disturbing emotions are adventitious, they can be eliminated. To think of the immense well of potential hidden deep within our being, to understand that the nature of the mind is fundamental purity and kindness and to meditate on its luminosity, will enable you to develop self-confidence and courage.

The Buddha says in the Sutras that fully enlightened and omniscient beings, whom we consider to be superior, did not spring from the bowels of the earth, nor did they fall from the sky; they are the result of spiritual purification.
Such beings were once as troubled as we are now, with the same weaknesses and flaws of ordinary beings. Shakyamuni Buddha himself, prior to his enlightenment, lived in other incarnations that were far more difficult than our present lives.
To recognize, in all its majesty, our own potential for spiritual perfection is an antidote to guilt, disgust, and hopelessness.
Nagarjuna says in "The Precious Garland of Advice for the King" that pessimism and depression never help in finding a good solution to any problem. On the other hand, arrogance is just as negative. But to present as an antidote to it a posture of extreme humility may tend to foster a lack of self-confidence and open the door to depression and discouragement. We would only go from one extreme to the other.

I would like to point out that to set out on a retreat for three years full of hope and expectations, thinking that without the slightest difficulty you will come Out of it fully enlightened, can turn into a disaster, unless you undertake it with the most serious intentions.
If you overestimate your expectations and have too much self-confidence, you will be headed for dissatisfaction and disillusionment.
When you think of what the Buddha said--that perfect enlightenment is the result of spiritual purification and an accumulation of virtues and wisdom for eons and eons--it is certain that courage and perseverance will arise to accompany you on the path.

reply to post by wildtimes


Buddhism predates Christ but modern Buddhism does not. Again let me repeat there is not one Buddhist manuscript that has been found that predates Christ. You simply cannot prove what you say. Myself and many others who testify to a changed life in Christ prove what I say.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
Again let me repeat there is not one Buddhist manuscript that has been found that predates Christ

Just because there hasn't been one found *that you know of* does not preclude the possibilty that such find won't be made in the future, or hasn't happened and you just don't know about it..

You simply cannot prove what you say.

Neither can you.

Myself and many others who testify to a changed life in Christ prove what I say

That doesn't prove anything either. You can't reinforce delusions with more delusions.

reply to post by wildtimes

The doctrine was begun by Paul, who was not a direct disciple of Jesus, and who in fact worked directly for the Roman government, spying on the early Christians. In fact, Paul's teachings challenged the teachings of James, who was Jesus' direct disciple.

No Paul wasn't a direct apostle ..something I have known since childhood.. which makes his conversion even more of a "godsmack" if you will by the Holy Spirit....and even more proof that the grace of Jesus is what opens the doors to the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus spoke to Paul then..after He died..and I think continues to speak to whom He chooses for whatever reasons.

Now when the bible says that many will have done miracles on his name but Jesus will say .."get away from me..I know you not".. he isn't talking about ALL of those who have done miracles in His name.. just some.

Mans wisdom and knowledge is not God's wisdom and knowledge wildtimes.

You can choose to believe the books you want to believe.. and I have the choice to believe what I want.. even to the point of being persecuted for it..which may come.

I believe with all my heart that Jesus is the only son of God.. born of the virgin Mary..who continues to this day to appear to certain children (now grown up) to ask for prayer, penance, and conversion on behalf of her Son.

I will continue to believe in the great gifts the Holy Eucharist gives our souls....when coupled with true contrition for our sins...and I will continue to ask for the intercession of the most blessed virgin ..as well as ALL the saints..and the angels... in my prayers to Jesus and His Father.

I really don't wish to argue this..and I really feel Jesus is telling me to just pray and let Him take care of the rest..and be patient....because in time many things will be revealed.

I love you all.. and keep you in my prayers.. with love.. and hope..and faith.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Buddhism predates Christ but modern Buddhism does not. Again let me repeat there is not one Buddhist manuscript that has been found that predates Christ. You simply cannot prove what you say. Myself and many others who testify to a changed life in Christ prove what I say.

edit on 13-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

There are monistaries that do not let outsiders within their walls....

Im sure theres plenty of texts that have not be revealed to the western world as well...

According to a late part of the Pali Canon, the Buddha taught the three pitakas.[17] It is traditionally believed by Theravadins that most of the Pali Canon originated from the Buddha and his immediate disciples. According to the scriptures, a council was held shortly after the Buddha's passing to collect and preserve his teachings. It was recited orally from the 5th century BCE to the first century BCE, when it was written down. The tradition holds that only a few later additions were made.

Much of the material in the Canon is not specifically Theravādin, but is instead the collection of teachings that this school preserved from the early, non-sectarian body of teachings. According to Peter Harvey, it contains material which is at odds with later Theravādin orthodoxy. He states that "the Theravādins, then, may have added texts to the Canon for some time, but they do not appear to have tampered with what they already had from an earlier period."[18] A variety of factors suggest that the early Sri Lankan Buddhists regarded canonical literature as such and transmitted it conservatively.[19

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Along these lines, it is quite certain that neither Jesus nor his disciples had any idea of him being the awaited Messiah, the Christ, God incarnate, the second person of the Trinity

Its fantastic you noticed this about hinduism...

The trinity is a lie my friend...

You are incorrect. I will give a few examples of the doctrine of the trinity in the scriptures. It is up to you to re-read (or read) the Christian Bible to find the other numerous references.

GENESIS 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness............

Notice how GOD the Creator says US and OUR image and likeness.
This is the relationship, pre-existing the creation of all things, between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. THE TRINITY.

GENESIS 1:2 Now the earth was without shape and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water. 1:3 God said............

In this verse if you look closely and understand it the three persons of the triune Godhead are very evident.
They are -
1. "the Spirit of GOD" - THE HOLY SPIRIT
2. "GOD said" - " GOD" - is present here - GOD the Father
3. "GOD said" - "said" - Jesus is present here - The Word of GOD (this is Jesus)


JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. 1:2 The Word was with God in the beginning. 1:3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind.

JOHN 1:14 Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory – the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father.

This verse tell us the Jesus (the Word of GOD) became a human man (Jesus the Son).

JOHN 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.

This verse identifies Jesus the SON (who is Himself GOD) is in God the Father.

LUKE 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized. And while he was praying, the heavens opened, 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my one dear Son; in you I take great delight.”

This verse clearly reveals all three persons of the Godhead.
!. Jesus the Son is present.
2. The Holy spirit is present.
3. God the Father is present.

THIS VERSE IS THE DEFINITIVE PROOF THAT THE SCRIPTURES TESTIFY TO THE TRINITY OF THE GODHEAD............

KJV© 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

May I suggest you view the link provided to get a better understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Trinity

reply to post by 1king2rulethemall


The "Godhead" is a recent term... it is not found in scripture...

Same with the trinity... it was not taught by Jesus or his followers... It was an idea that was added to the religion 300+ years later...

I have no need to "re-read" what i know isn't there....

reply to post by vogon42

Are you honestly saying you will accuse a child of sin just because they are a child.
Do you NOT think it is possible for a child to go ONE week without sin??

The Bible teaches that every human being is a sinner and seperated from GOD.

This is because of the first humans - adam and eve - whose bloodline we all come from. Because of their disobedience to GOD, that "sin" has resulted in seperation of all humankind.

A crude analogy would be that of the cancer gene. It is passed down from generation to generation - usually getting more dominant in the following generation.

Sin is the same. It is passed down throughout all of the generations. In GODs' sight, we are ALL sinners. That is why GOD Himself came to earth in human form(Jesus) and was crucified (to take with Him, and pay for all of our sin) and resurrected (reconcilliation with GOD and eternal life).

You are applying YOUR measure of what you call right and wrong - you are not using the measure that GOD provides in His son Jesus Christ.

That is why you (and many others) cannot grasp the truth that we are ALL sinners. CHRISTIANS INCLUDED!!!!!!!

reply to post by wildtimes
Wildtimes, you are incorrect. May I suggest that you read the Old Testament with this specific goal in mind.........

Read the whole Testament, looking for Jesus Christ throughout its pages.

Please understand that Jesus Pre-existed before His incarnation.

The WHOLE CHRISTIAN BIBLE is about Jesus Christ. Jesus is PRESENT in the Old testament, spoken of in the Old testament, alluded to in the Old Testament, WORSHIPPED in the Old Testament. He is symbolised in the Old Testament, prophesied about in the Old Testament.

My point is JESUS CHRIST PREDATES ALL OF YOUR REFERENCE RELIGIONS.

The "Godhead" is a recent term... it is not found in scripture...

Same with the trinity... it was not taught by Jesus or his followers... It was an idea that was added to the religion 300+ years later...

I have no need to "re-read" what i know isn't there....

reply to post by Akragon
You are correct in one aspect. The "term" Godhead is not mentioned in the scriptures. BUT, you are incorrect in assuming that because the WORD GODhead is absent - then the actual truth of the GODhead is also absent.

Please understand this truth............. THE WHOLE CHRISTIAN BIBLE IS ABOUT JESUS CHRIST - BOTH THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW TESTAMENT.

Until you can understand what the Bible is actually saying, then you will always be incorrect in your reasoning.