Finland says ship can sail again, without missiles

Finland says ship can sail again, without missiles

www.boston.com

HELSINKI—A British-registered ship that was held in a Finnish port after authorities discovered 69 surface-to-air missiles and 160 tons of explosives onboard has permission to travel again, but without those materials or its captain, a port official said Monday.

(visit the link for the full news article)



Related AboveTopSecret.com Discussion Threads:
en.wikipedia.org...
whatreallyhappened.com...

This story is getting stranger and stranger. If the missiles are going to South Korea and it is all a misunderstanding, why confiscate them?

The missiles going to South Korea, an American ally, is entirely reasonable and they would be allowed to have them. Because the missiles are confiscated, it means that it was illicit material and the Shanghia bound ship was smuggling top grade American technology.

I think it is Israel who were selling the patriot missiles given to them by the US taxpayer to China. Israel is already known to have sold US nuclear submarine technology stolen by Jonathan Pollard to the Chinese. Also Israel now has Iron Dome missile shield and does not need the surplus Patriot batteries they have.

www.boston.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

reply to post by Helixer

Hmm, so now we need to be scared of Finland too? I did read the story and it says

The military has destroyed some of the cargo, while other pieces were being repacked in a safer manner,

Sounds like a double-barreled statement if ever I heard one.

reply to post by LightSpeedDriver


I would guess they destroyed the explosives, probably plastique and put the Patriot missiles in protective casing. They are too valuable to destroy.

So why would you transport Patriot missiles out of their casing? When you want to save space and hide them.

If it turns out Israel is behind this stinker, there will be people in the US government that will be seriously angered. There are officials in the US still hopping mad about the Jonathan Pollard treachery.

There will come a day when American service men and women who will die because of this tranfer of technology.

The explosive is "piric" acid - but they probably mean picric acid -

Modern safety precautions recommend storing picric acid wet. Dry picric acid is relatively sensitive to shock and friction, so laboratories that use it store it in bottles under a layer of water, rendering it safe. Glass or plastic bottles are required, as picric acid can easily form metal picrate salts that are even more sensitive and hazardous than the acid itself.

- from the safety section of the Wiki article on picric acid

So I'd guess that some of it had degenerated into these salts and needed disposing, the rest needed proper packaging.

The article doesn't say that anything has been "confiscated" - which means ownership changes - all the articles referring to this say the goods have been "impounded" - which means they remain the property of the original owner, but they cannot take possession until they fulfil some conditions - often a fine or similar

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


While your comments sound plauable, it does not convincingly explain why the weapons were impounded, the captain detained and the ship let go.

It could be that the ship's owners had no involvement with the missiles and the captain has been detained to assist the police with there investigation. Any which you flip this, it stinks. If it was Turkey or Poland that were smuggling the missiles, it would be all over the news. Only one country that has the power to intimidate everyone and it is Israel and this is probably why the news item is being handled in a delicate manner.

If they impounded the missiles in safe keeping for the owners, how did the owners misplace so many? If it was not lost then why was it being smuggled?

reply to post by Helixer


Huh? the weapons were impounded because they didn't have the proper documentation - international trade in arms is a pretty serious matter, and you need to have all the paperwork done.

The captain was detained because he's the captain - it is his responsibility to have all the documentation right.

The ship is let go because there's no reason to hold it any longer.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Huh? the weapons were impounded because they didn't have the proper documentation - international trade in arms is a pretty serious matter, and you need to have all the paperwork done.

States do not transport Patriot missiles without proper documentation if they are going to intermediate ports. Whoever is transporting the Patriot missiles it is not an arms dealer because these missiles have classified technology and are not peddled in the open market.

Also because the explosives and missiles were poorly packed in the ship, one can only assume they were being smuggled.

The captain was detained because he's the captain - it is his responsibility to have all the documentation right.

There are only few occassions when a captain leaves a ship unscheduled; if he is sick, the ship sinks, he gets fired by the owners or if he gets arrested.

If there are impounded missiles that need to have paperwork completed, then that is the bursars job to deal with it not the captain's.

The ship is let go because there's no reason to hold it any longer.

It means that the missiles will not be released and the captain is under arrest. The ship left without its cargo and captain!

Germany says missile shipment legitimate

- A shipment of 69 surface-to-air missiles impounded by Finnish authorities was a legitimate delivery from Germany to South Korea, a German official said yesterday

“Those Patriot guided missiles are from the Bundeswehr’s stocks and have been shipped to South Korea’’ under an intergovernmental treaty, he said, declining to be named in line with government policy.

link


So these are from the German Federal Defence Forces ?

Why is Israel`s name being bandied about ?

Originally posted by UmbraSumus
Germany says missile shipment legitimate

So these are from the German Federal Defence Forces ?

Why is Israel`s name being bandied about ?

Because Israel has form in stealing and selling US technology to China. The ship was heading to China/Shanghia.

Dec. 22 (Bloomberg) -- Finland impounded Patriot missiles and explosives from a Shanghai-bound ship
...
"We're investigating where the cargo was headed, based on who owns it," Petri Lounatmaa, head of the anti-crime unit at Finnish Customs in Helsinki

Nobody knew who owns the missiles and where it was heading. Now that the news media is announcing that the missiles belongs to Germany and they are heading to South Korea a number of questions come to mind;

1. Did the US give permission for its classified technology to be shifted from country to country?

2. The Patriot missile is more of a perimeter defense system than a regional antimissile system. This is why the Israelis abandoned their Patriot missiles for Iron Dome. Which of its neighbours does Germany deploy its Patriot missiles - UK? Denmark? Sweden? NetherLands?

3.What interests me is the route these very expensive missiles were taking to "South Korea"; from Germany, up north east of the North Atlantic Sea to Finland, then back through the German coast and south via the Suez canal and without the proper papers!

4. Why detain the captain and why confiscate the missile if it is only a misunderstanding?

I suggest Germany has nothing to do with it, that the missiles were on board the ship for months, and that the M/S Thor Liberty was back tracking over itself deliverying other cargo to hide where the missiles originally came from.

The only country that has a surplus of Patriot missiles is Israel.

Interesting fact, the original explosives reported to have been found in the ship was nitroguanidine and not picric acid.

Definition:

Nitroguanidine is used as an explosive propellant, notably in triple-base smokeless powder. The nitroguanidine reduces the propellant's flash and flame temperature without sacrificing chamber pressure. These are typically used in large bore guns where barrel erosion and flash are particularly important.

en.wikipedia.org...

So I maintain that the propellent of the missiles were removed from the missiles and set aside so that they do not spoil and crystallize in their chambers in the indeterminate conditions of the cargo holds.

First of all the explosives were Nitroguanidine. Also some of the packets were not up to code so they were disposed. Most were reloaded to containers. Also the patriots were not going to china. The nitroguanidine was and that was a legal shipment. The problem now is that the company didn't use the electronic customs system to clear the patriots properly.

Originally posted by PsykoOps
Also some of the packets were not up to code so they were disposed.

What code would that be? I can assure you that my local municipal authority has no codes on packing Patriot missile fuel.

Since when does patriot system operate with Nitroguanidine? You should just stick to posting facts and drop the "Israel is behind it" theories.

Originally posted by PsykoOps

Since when does patriot system operate with Nitroguanidine?

When checked, the ship was found in the top 69 Patriot missiles, explosives, and rocket fuel propellant.

www.currentnewsarticle.com...

You should just stick to posting facts and drop the "Israel is behind it" theories.

You should stick to debating the thread and drop the ad hominem.

I am not simply saying Israel did it, I am making the case that due to the illicit nature of everything that has come out that the Patriot missiles were being smuggled and the excuses being given in the media and by Israeli apologists on ats does not hold up to scrutiny.

No country is allowed to sell or give classified US technology to another country without US approval, period. The missiles were being smuggled and the only country with access to top grade US technology and consistently betrays that trust is Israel, period.

Nice try. First of all that "source" of yours is lacking in credibility. Considering it's the only one that actually claims that. Go ahead. Google "thor liberty" "rocket fuel". I dare you
So show me even a tiny bit of "illicit nature" in the case. The sender and receiver both have acknowledged that this is a legimate shipment. Do you somehow magically know better? Do you have any source for your claim that the missiles were being smugled?

Originally posted by PsykoOps

Nice try. First of all that "source" of yours is lacking in credibility. Considering it's the only one that actually claims that. Go ahead. Google "thor liberty" "rocket fuel". I dare you

So show me even a tiny bit of "illicit nature" in the case. The sender and receiver both have acknowledged that this is a legimate shipment. Do you somehow magically know better? Do you have any source for your claim that the missiles were being smugled?

OK, thanks. I think I made my case and there is no more new information on the matter.

Cheers

Originally posted by Helixer

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Huh? the weapons were impounded because they didn't have the proper documentation - international trade in arms is a pretty serious matter, and you need to have all the paperwork done.

States do not transport Patriot missiles without proper documentation if they are going to intermediate ports. Whoever is transporting the Patriot missiles it is not an arms dealer because these missiles have classified technology and are not peddled in the open market.

The evidence suggests that states are indeed capable of screwing up the paperwork. The evidence also has no mention of "the open market" - where do you get that from??

Also because the explosives and missiles were poorly packed in the ship, one can only assume they were being smuggled.

Really?? But there is no suggestion AFAIK that he missiles were poorly packed at all. Just the explosives.

And AFAIK there is no rule in the universe that says that only smugglers pack things poorly.

The captain was detained because he's the captain - it is his responsibility to have all the documentation right.

There are only few occassions when a captain leaves a ship unscheduled; if he is sick, the ship sinks, he gets fired by the owners or if he gets arrested.

If there are impounded missiles that need to have paperwork completed, then that is the bursars job to deal with it not the captain's.

Bzzzttt...nope. the Captain is the ultimate responsibility on the ship. Others may do particular jobs related to that - but he remains responsible.

There is no such position as Bursar - do you mean Purser? If so then this is incorrect too. The Purser is responsible for the ship's internal finances - buying supplies and running the ships internal administration.

The Chief Mate/First Officer usually handles the cargo loading. He is accountable to the captain, but ther is a difference between accountability and responsibility - you can delegate accountability, you cannot delegate responsibility - Ie you boss can tell you to do something he is responsible for - you are then accountable for doing the job, but he remains responsible for it being properly. and that will be why the Chief Officer was also detained.

The ship is let go because there's no reason to hold it any longer.

It means that the missiles will not be released

Bet they will be......

and the captain is under arrest. The ship left without its cargo and captain!

It left without PART of it's cargo & I am sure a new captain & First Officer were sent to it.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


OK, thanks. I think I made my case and there is no more new information on the matter.

I really haven't got more to add so there is no point in us chasing each other's tails.

Cheers

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

and the captain is under arrest. The ship left without its cargo and captain!

It left without PART of it's cargo & I am sure a new captain & First Officer were sent to it.

Actually the ship hasn't left. They are loading new cargo on it. After that the explosives will be loaded. Then it'll be ready to sail as soon as the "no travel" order on the 1st mate and captain is lifted. They aren't detained either btw.

Originally posted by PsykoOps

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

and the captain is under arrest. The ship left without its cargo and captain!

It left without PART of it's cargo & I am sure a new captain & First Officer were sent to it.

Actually the ship hasn't left. They are loading new cargo on it. After that the explosives will be loaded. Then it'll be ready to sail as soon as the "no travel" order on the 1st mate and captain is lifted. They aren't detained either btw.

A Britain-registered ship carrying missiles to South Korea has been detained in Finland after trying to avoid a typhoon, a South Korean official said Tuesday.

According to the official with the Defense Acquisition Program Administration, the ship Thor Liberty, which was delivering 69 Patriot missiles from Germany to South Korea, was impounded in Kotka, southern Finland, on Dec. 15.

The vessel had left a northern German port of Emden on Dec. 13.

The official said it was en route to South Korea before forecast of a typhoon forced it to seek safe harbor in Finland.

www.koreaherald.com...

This story gets weirder and weider. The Korean newspaper above is reporting that the ship docked in Finland to avoid a typhoon. The weather record for the sea in the North Atlantic records calm weather average temperature for December at -2.5C and the precipitation for December 11mm per 24 hours.

www.yr.no...

Here is another report saying that ship docked in Finland to pick up anchor chain;

The British-registered Thor Liberty, owned by Danish firm Thorco, is docked on December 22, 2011 in the Mussalo harbor of the port of Kotka, about 120 kms (75 miles) from Helsinki. According to Finish national broadcaster YLE TV, the ship, which also carried around 160 tons of explosives, originated from Germany and was headed for the ROK. It made port in Finland to pick up a consignment of anchor chain for delivery to China

english.caijing.com.cn...

and incase you say that that source is not credible here is another with the anchor chain from ABC News;

abcnews.go.com...

And it continues to say that the Finns found the hold contained "picric acid" sitting on boxes marked as fireworks and on examination contained Patriot missiles.

The ship docked on the 15 December so all this mix up is not because it is emerging news but because some one is lying very consistently.

Detective Superintendent Timo Virtanen of the National Bureau of Investigation said dock workers found the explosives — picric acid — badly stored on open pallets instead of in closed containers. They alerted inspectors who found the missiles in containers marked as holding fireworks.

abcnews.go.com...


Clearly there is cover up of an international scale going on. All very dodgy really with state criminality, lies and media manipulation.