Finland says ship can sail again, without missiles

I wonder how one's mind work.
Here is a ship that as far as we both know - never visited in Israel.
Here is a seller that says - hey i am the seller ,and it is Germany and ship visited there.
Here is a buyer that says - hey i am the buyer ,it is South Korea and ship is sailing to Asia.
Here is OP - it is evil Israeli plot to sell US technology to China.
What,why,how?
I understand that you do not like Israel and its inhabitants (to say the least), but when hate overloads all rational thinking it is not healthy, in my opinion.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
I wonder how one's mind work.
Here is a ship that as far as we both know - never visited in Israel.
Here is a seller that says - hey i am the seller ,and it is Germany and ship visited there.
Here is a buyer that says - hey i am the buyer ,it is South Korea and ship is sailing to Asia.
Here is OP - it is evil Israeli plot to sell US technology to China.
What,why,how?
I understand that you do not like Israel and its inhabitants (to say the least), but when hate overloads all rational thinking it is not healthy, in my opinion.

It is all very easy friend. Israel is a criminal state that kills people, spies, pirates the high seas, had Patriot missiles it does not need and took the material on nuclear submarine technology stolen by Jonathon Pollard and sold it to China.

The above is all worth considering unless of course you feel that it is all delusional.

reply to post by Helixer

It is all very easy friend. Israel is a criminal state that kills people, spies, pirates the high seas, had Patriot missiles it does not need and took the material on nuclear submarine technology stolen by Jonathon Pollard and sold it to China. The above is all worth considering unless of course you feel that it is all delusional.

Oh, that explains it all. Get bunch of lies, pepper it with criminal (or genocidal,according to the mood) Israel, pour it over any news one finds suitable (if it is really about Israel - then there will be a bonus, certainly) and there you go - a nice hate kubbeh.

Originally posted by Helixer

This story is getting stranger and stranger. If the missiles are going to South Korea and it is all a misunderstanding, why confiscate them?

The missiles going to South Korea, an American ally, is entirely reasonable and they would be allowed to have them. Because the missiles are confiscated, it means that it was illicit material and the Shanghia bound ship was smuggling top grade American technology.

I think it is Israel who were selling the patriot missiles given to them by the US taxpayer to China. Israel is already known to have sold US nuclear submarine technology stolen by Jonathan Pollard to the Chinese. Also Israel now has Iron Dome missile shield and does not need the surplus Patriot batteries they have.

www.boston.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

edit on 26-12-2011 by Helixer because: sp

"Israel has already sold nuke sub tech to the Chinese"? I really would like to know the source you got THAT from. But you did qualify it by saying "you think". Missiles are pretty generic looking on the outside, and sub tech can be almost anything. Considering Israel is the largest recipient of foreign aid by us, as we share the mutual interests of peace in that part of the world they are still (hopefully this club will grow) the only legitimate democracy, and one w/a track record in that part of the world. But nations do things because at least at the time they view it in THEIR best interest. Frankly this is a bit "out there" for me. Until I get more info. Consider this.

Israel helped South Africa develop a nuclear bomb, back in the bad old days when it was a raciest regime. Why? It had to be because SA had something Israel wanted. And also SA had trouble trading w/other's being a pariah as was and still is by some Israel. But a pariah is in the eye of the beholder. Don't forget the US had an intelligence and military "understanding" w/SA because they were anti-communist and that was in OUR best interest.

As for Iron Dome (etc.) no doubt we DID collaborate w/them on missiles&rocket (mortars, short range stuff) defense because they really need to know how to defend themselves against this, and we would love to know what they came up with. They are after all among the most advanced nations on Earth with a superb military. Unlike Israel, the US does not have nations that openly want to "ripe us off the map". Religious fanatics&or extreme anti-Americans&westerners aside. That persistent threat is quite an "incentive" for coming up with very good technology to prevent anyone doing that. Most certainly we would be very pissed if Israel did what you claim. It's not in their self interest, needless to say ours, and thats what it always comes down to.

Since you mentioned Pollard the US hard line on Pollard is IM-not so-HO because, as far as I have heard in the OS media, he GAVE certain types of stuff of considerable sensitivity to Israel. Sources&methods, sacred cow stuff. Even GIVING stuff to a friendly country, sorry gang its still called treason. The US has been steadfast about Pollard not being "paroled" to Israel despite numerous efforts at diplomacy by Israel for us to do just that. You should not get a nice home, pension, medal or two not to mention living in a nice climate for treason.

As for what the Finns did and why, I really would love to get some explanation. It's possible they got some intelligence or even a request, perhaps from us or another source this was NOT going to South Korea. That at least is very possible. And the fact is "openly" known, not that they brag about it, China is engaged in highly aggressive cyber espionage against the U.S. and anyone else of interest, thats more "open" then secret. No doubt Iran will get a butt load of cash for our apparently hijacked stealth drone. It seems obvious the GPS was spooked/pirated with. Their cyber attacks against any military or corporation on Earth (hell Google went whining to the NSA because they were attacked by China. I'm not a great fan of some of their corporate policies but this is beyond the pale. They only should have sleep with those they chose. INHO.)

reply to post by Helixer


Oh please stop with the old news. The seas were very rough around here. We even have video of the ship in the rough seas. We have a formal request for aid to get the ship into cover by maritime pilot. He himself has talked to the press. I'd like to see your source for "calm seas". Average statistic per month aren't going to cut it.
Also find me even one finnish official saying there was any picric acid on board. I haven't seen any. I can't find any by google either.
You have your whole story wrong. Finnish dock haulers found the nitro in the hold not packed up to code. They are supposed to be in containers and not just out in the open. They notified the customs. Customs stopped the ship for inspection because of this code violation. This was the first time such a stop has been done. They then discoverd the patriot missiles in the ship. They were labeled "rockets" and found out that the Finnish dock workers had mistranslated it into "fireworks".
You're spreading pure misinformation and propaganda. You are lying. Stop it.

reply to post by PsykoOps


Why don't you look at my links instead of asking for my sources as if I haven't provided any. What I don't understand is why you are trying to shut down debate? What is it to you what I maintain my argument?

I have shown ample evidence of inconsistencies with what is reported and I think governments lie especially when they are upto no good.

I've checked all your links. They contain either completely false information which is copied from article to article or someone who doesn't even know english trying to make it look like this is some huge conspiracy. The only conspiracy here is that media is stupid and lazy.

Originally posted by PsykoOps
I've checked all your links. They contain either completely false information which is copied from article to article or someone who doesn't even know english trying to make it look like this is some huge conspiracy. The only conspiracy here is that media is stupid and lazy.

Wow, just wow!!!

So what is the score? Do you need to shut up on this matter. Message me.

Thanks

The ship is still docked. The captain and first mate are still under arrest. The explosives are all confiscated. Nothing is moving. Might be bureaucracy or it might be something else. Time will tell.

Wow... just wow
Noone is under arrest. Explosives aren't confiscated either. Goods are moving and being loaded. The ship is free to sail as soon as it is reloaded. With the explosives.

reply to post by PsykoOps


You are a complete numpty. Can you read? Here's the link, in your own language. Today's Helsingin Sanomat. Maybe you're an insider? Highly unlikely. If so, prove it. I think we all know what you really are though.

Another article in English from two days ago.

Do not see anyone arrested there. Check. Do not see any explosives being confiscated. Check. Do not see anything about "nothing moving". Check.
Go for mate?

reply to post by PsykoOps


Captain and First Mate cannot travel and their hearing will be next week. Am I wrong? I am not. That's as good as arrested in their line of work, no? Customs has confiscated the explosives and the missiles. The missiles are being stored by the FDF. The 150+ tonnes of explosives have been placed in proper containers but are under watch of Customs and the ship is still docked at Kotka. Am I wrong? I am not. As for "nothing moving", what is moving? The headline there is "Kotkan räjähdealuksen lasti pysyy maissa". What's not to understand about it not going anywhere?

It's fine if you want to nitpick every word. Maybe you're an out of work translator. Maybe you're just insecure. It doesn't matter. Quit being a jerk.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
reply to post by PsykoOps

 

Captain and First Mate cannot travel and their hearing will be next week. Am I wrong? I am not. That's as good as arrested in their line of work, no?

No. They are not under arrest. By definition they are free men who are persons of interest atm. and they are not suspects or under arrest.

Customs has confiscated the explosives and the missiles. The missiles are being stored by the FDF. The 150+ tonnes of explosives have been placed in proper containers but are under watch of Customs and the ship is still docked at Kotka. Am I wrong? I am not.

Customs is holding explosives and missiles are being held by FDF. Nothing has been confiscated. So yeah you are wrong.

As for "nothing moving", what is moving? The headline there is "Kotkan räjähdealuksen lasti pysyy maissa". What's not to understand about it not going anywhere?

The cargo of anchor chains is moving. Also the paper machine that is bound for china is moving. Then after that the explosives are to be loaded. The ship is free to travel at any time also.

It's fine if you want to nitpick every word. Maybe you're an out of work translator. Maybe you're just insecure. It doesn't matter. Quit being a jerk.

Touche.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
reply to post by PsykoOps

 

Captain and First Mate cannot travel and their hearing will be next week. Am I wrong? I am not. That's as good as arrested in their line of work, no? Customs has confiscated the explosives and the missiles. The missiles are being stored by the FDF. The 150+ tonnes of explosives have been placed in proper containers but are under watch of Customs and the ship is still docked at Kotka. Am I wrong? I am not. As for "nothing moving", what is moving? The headline there is "Kotkan räjähdealuksen lasti pysyy maissa". What's not to understand about it not going anywhere?

It's fine if you want to nitpick every word. Maybe you're an out of work translator. Maybe you're just insecure. It doesn't matter. Quit being a jerk.

edit on 30/12/2011 by CosmicEgg because: (no reason given)

This DOES get stranger by the minute. IT DOES seem there is much more here for Finland to do what is in appearance an illegal "smash and grab" with out the smash of a ships as far as I know legal cargo. My original post remains unless and until I hear more at least plausible. Sounds like somehow/someway the Fins may have been tipped off or asked by a foreign intelligence source, one of several "private" groups that that snoop and trade information for a fee, (also known as the high priced grape vine) perhaps on the outside possibility a diplomatic element of god knows who, yada yada... One way or another the Fins better have a good reason. They have also had and as far as I know still maintain a cozy, not that their still in bed, as far as I know but "friendly" relationship with the Russians. But it is getting weirder as we speak. And now this has me very curious. about ??

Agence France-Presse news agency report from today

Finland to widen missile shipment probe: customs
On Friday 30 December 2011, 20:41 SGT

sg.finance.yahoo.com/news/Finland-widen-missile-afpsg-3026266322.html

Finland wants to widen a probe into the illegal transit of 69 Patriot missiles through its territory aboard a regular merchant vessel, Finnish customs said Friday.

Two Ukrainians -- the ship's captain and the first mate -- remained in Finland and were subject to a travel ban amid the ongoing investigation.

"Next week... we will want to hear more suspects or persons of interest in the case. It is possible there may be others of interest," the head of the Finnish customs anti-crime unit, Petri Lounatmaa, told AFP.

The surface-to-air missiles, produced by US firm Raytheon, were discovered last week on the British-registered Thor Liberty docked in the southeastern Finnish port of Kotka and bound for the Chinese port city of Shanghai, according to Finnish police.

Finnish customs are investigating the case as one of illegal export of defence material.

Lounatmaa said customs and police investigators had "been in contact with several countries" and that the information gathered would help them "focus ... investigations in the right direction".

He declined to provide any details on the nature of the information received, noting only that some of it had come in the form of intelligence briefs.

More official information would be needed as evidence if the case goes to criminal proceedings, he said.

Last week, a German defence ministry spokesman said the missiles came from the German military and were destined for South Korea, not China.

He said it was a "legal sale on the basis of an accord between two states at the government level" and that export authorisations were in order.

However a senior Finnish defense ministry official said Finland had not received any transit license application for the missiles from Germany.

On Monday, Finnish transport safety officials cleared the Thor Liberty to leave Finland, after the missiles and most of the cargo of 150 tons of explosives had been unloaded from the vessel.

However the vessel remained grounded by the travel ban on its first officers.

reply to post by arbiture


So you want anyone to be able to run guns through our borders? The shipment company did 2 mistakes. They didn't clear the patriots through the electronic custom system properly and they didn't pack the nitroguanidine up to code. Because of those two violations it is more than within our rights to take the cargo in and do an investigation. It is our duty to do so. So that kind of destroyes the "legal cargo" argument.
Also it is pointless to speculate on who could've tipped what cow and why since no such thing has happened.

reply to post by xecoybh


Critical point would be to make that the shipment of explosives was going to China and the Patriots then would continue to SK where they were heading.

reply to post by Helixer


I have been watching this story closely and it is turning into an almighty cover up. I suspect that the missiles were being smuggled to China.

Originally posted by PsykoOps


reply to post by xecoybh

 

Critical point would be to make that the shipment of explosives was going to China and the Patriots then would continue to SK where they were heading.

edit on 30/12/2011 by PsykoOps because: (no reason given)

How did you divine this possible outcome? There isn't enough information to make this conclusion.

Even though you no longer humor us on the forum I shall answer anyway. I don't know. Perhaps the fact that the sender and receiver said so?