The Occupation has Failed

reply to post by OceanGeek

I wanted to add that holding public office is another very good idea for helping positive change to occur. But if it's specifically about Occupy's goals, it should not associated with one of the existing parties - neither one is backed by 99% of the population.

The current population of the US is:

over 311 million people (311,800,000 in mid-2011) so the United States has the world's third largest population (following China and India).

link

The number of people who voted in 2008 Presidential election was @132,645,504 link

99% of 311 million is 307 million.

UHMMMMM........42% of the population in America voted in 2008!!!! The VAST majority supported either the Republican or Democrat candidate. Which means the so-called 99% doesn’t represent ANYWHERE NEAR 99% of America!!

Get a grip dude!!

You guys still don't even acknowledge the definition of the 99% in the movement. The 99% does NOT equal a claim of 99% of the US population supporting the movement. It is indicative ONLY of the 1%'s control of the wealth leaving the rest (the 99%) with absoultely no control over the wealth in this world (yes I meant to say world).

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by nenothtu

 

You absolutely do have the right to eat three meals a day. You have the right to provide yourself with such by any legal means that you can. Dollars or physical labor, sadly those options aren't available to all.

No, I don't.

I have a right to eat what I can get. If that's 3 meals, that's fine. If it's one, that's fine, too. If it's 8, that's OK as well.

I do not have a "right" to a specific number of meals. I have only the right to what I can get under my own power.

I normally eat once a day, whether I need it or not. More than that is excess and waste.

reply to post by nenothtu


We're essentially saying the same thing. You are entitled to work for what you want or need, should you be unable to find work you are entitled to grow/hunt/raise your own now when the government makes it increasingly hard to grow/hunt/raise your own food then what? Starve?

reply to post by Kali74


The problem there is that if the [Ignored Communist] element of the movement takes hold then the other economic power in this country. [The combined buying and voting power of Middle class] will disappear all together.

I dunno about you, but I want no part of Mao's little red book.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by seabag

 

I already gave you a sampling of their accomplishments and it is more positive than the Tea Party did.
They have actually hurt the government with the people they helped get into office. The people that fooled them into thinking they were on their side.

They inspired a great amendment to the constitution to be put forth (which it has been be Ted Deutch I believe).
They inspired the Eugene Oregon City council to allocate more funds to help the under privileged.
Brought attention to excessive force that police are willing to use on peaceful protesters.

also:

1. Put the question of economic inequality in the center of national discourse for the first time since the 1960’s, even though such inequality has been growing dramatically for the last 20 years. The vocabulary the movement has developed to describe this inequality, “the 1 % and the 99%,” have become a permanent part of our political discourse and has focused great attention on how the maldistribution of wealth has undermined democracy and eroded the living standards of the great majority of Americans.

2. Called attention to the stifling impact of student loan debt on young college, professional and trade school graduates who face the double whammy of a stagnant job market and crippling debt. The attention given to this issue inspired President Obama to marginally ease the loan burden of current recipients. In the future, it might even prompt a radical reconfiguration of the debt or a major program of loan forgiveness.

3. Created political pressures that prompted the postponement of a decision by President Obama to begin construction of the controversial Keystone XL natural gas pipeline.

4. Forced New York Governor Cuomo, whose promise not to renew the state’s millionaires' tax drew national attention, to negotiate with state legislators a tax increase in the higher brackets to go into effect next year, which will prevent 2 billion dollars in anticipated budget cuts.

5. Inspired a wide variety of actions to prevent foreclosures and evictions and to bring relief to beleaguered home owners and tenants, including preventing the eviction of a 103 year old woman in Atlanta, forcing a Harlem landlord to restore heat to tenants, and occupying a foreclosed house in the East New York Section of Brooklyn.

6. Put the undemocratic character of many education reform policies, particularly school closings, under much greater scrutiny, creating pressures on policy makers that will make these closings much more difficult to implement without more consultation and input from parents, students, teachers and community members.

7. Given the labor movement a new vocabulary to challenge attacks on collective bargaining and union recognition, providing added ammunition to the successful campaign to defeat anti-collective bargaining bills in the states of Ohio and New Hampshire.

8. Focused attention on the issue of police brutality and the militarization of urban police forces in ways that reinforces longstanding complaints of police misconduct and abuse in Black and Latino communities.

9. Helped create a political climate which persuaded the Philadelphia District Attorney to remove the death sentence from human rights activist and journalist Mumia Abu Jamal.

10. Sparked protests against tuition increases at the nation's public universities, especially in the California public colleges and the City University of New York (CUNY).

11. Closed down several West Coast ports in support of striking port workers.

Yeah.. remember all the arguments of how Occupy was hurting the port workers? That was because the news wants you to oppose them. The news didn't mention that the port workers were striking and that Occupy was supporting their strike.

So OWS “inspired great legislation” that hasn’t passed and they inspired the Oregon “city council” to allocate funds?? !!! Just saying!!

For real though….the Tea Party has stopped legislation that would have cost us millions!!!! If you call that “hurting the government” then I’m not sure we can agree on what the country needs!

Come back when OWS has done something significant to help the “99%” rather than submit a piece of paper to congress or help the homeless in Oregon!

You have to get REAL results before you claim any type of success, dude! I know its politically correct for every child to get a trophy today but....not in the real world!

reply to post by SLAYER69


I don't know too much about communism really, I get the basics. I do know however that communism is an ideal that hasn't worked too well so far, I don't think we are ready for it, it's too easily abused...hmm sounds much like our free-market capitalism actually, it's failing humanity hard. Anything can be bad when bad people are in charge of it. I prefer the free-market but it needs a major over-haul and good people in charge of it, not the exploiting, selfish bastards we have now.

Communism isn't anything this country is going to see anytime soon if ever so it's really an over-reaction IMO, ask a communist if they think it's practical at this time in history to employ...most likely they will say no but it's an ideal.

reply to post by Kali74


One in which Hundreds of Millions have died trying to implement.
It works great on paper as an Academic exercise but in the Real REAL world people die and die by the millions because the truth of the situation in Communism is that there will always be somebody who is on top and more equal than others.

Here, at least I can decide right here and right now how I live.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by nenothtu

 

We're essentially saying the same thing. You are entitled to work for what you want or need, should you be unable to find work you are entitled to grow/hunt/raise your own now when the government makes it increasingly hard to grow/hunt/raise your own food then what? Starve?

Why starve? You don't have ANY rights that you fear to exercise. You simply do as you please. I fail to see how the government is relevant. They can do as they please - they've yet to find any way at all to make it "difficult" for me to grow/hunt/raise my own food.

That only works against people that give a crap what the government does. As soon as they make a law attempting to make something I do "difficult", that is the precise instant that I start ignoring that law as being itself illegal.

Now, you can believe that when I say it, or you can assume that I'm just talking trash, but I assure you I'm not, and have BEEN on midnight meat-runs in the woods. It's not at all as difficult as they would have you believe they can make it.

"Rights" are funny things - no paper can make them, confer them, or even guarantee them. Only YOU can do that, the individual.

They're not a gift to people from humanity, nor does the rest of humanity get to define them FOR you. Your rights only end where you start infringing the rights of others. For example, OWS rights to free speech END when they start obstructing the free movement of the rest of the population - especially if that "speech" is nothing more than gibberish.

You see, the right to a redress of grievances implies that you are addressing that speech to someone who can actually address those grievances, some one whose JOB is addressing those grievances. That's not the guy who's trying to get past you to get to work at the corner delicatessen.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Yeah, no-one dies or is enslaved or held down by capitalism.
Really?

Originally posted by Kali74
Yeah, no-one dies or is enslaved or held down by capitalism.
Really?

That is such a lame reply.
As if I've said that.


Come on, you can do better than that.

reply to post by nenothtu


Same old same old...
Occupy is actually protesting the government in addition to the 1%, I've posted/threaded this I don't even know how many times now. I'd like to say I could just ignore this BS rhetoric...I'm tired of the same arguments the same posts, same links, new stories...answers have been asked for and given, yet I can't. I simply cannot accept ignorance.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Stop condescending to people already. You gave an example of the harm in communism I gave one of the harm in capitalism. Where's the problem?

Can't we all just clean the Slate and play with legos?

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Kali74

 

One in which Hundreds of Millions have died trying to implement.
It works great on paper as an Academic exercise but in the Real REAL world people die and die by the millions because the truth of the situation in Communism is that there will always be somebody who is on top and more equal than others.

Here, at least I can decide right here and right now how I live.

Star for you, Slayer! I was about to say much the same, but you beat me to it.

In a utopian society, Communism works great. Otherwise, not so much. However, our great, great, great, great grandchildren may eventually experience such a utopian world....meaning, eventually, we will have machines and computers to run much of the world for us...when that eventuality comes to fruition, there will be a great upheaval; as the "haves and have nots" become so disconnected from one another, that eventually the haves either share the wealth or die at the hands of the "have nots"...either way, this is the destiny of mankind....either that, or total world destruction....

being the eternal optimist that I am, I like to think that the transition goes peacefully into the utopian society. Nonetheless, this idealism of mine is meaningless to me (individually), as I will never live to witness it....BUT, that is no reason to give up on the pursuit of such ideas.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Stop condescending to people already. You gave an example of the harm in communism I gave one of the harm in capitalism. Where's the problem?

Who's being condescending.
I really wish people would stop assuming.

I just expected a better answer from you is all.

Second.

If Communism is such a paradise then why did Russia and Eastern Europe toss it off and now Red China have turned a blind eye to it in favor of Capitalism?

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

I don't know too much about communism really, I get the basics. I do know however that communism is an ideal that hasn't worked too well so far, I don't think we are ready for it, it's too easily abused...hmm sounds much like our free-market capitalism actually, it's failing humanity hard. Anything can be bad when bad people are in charge of it. I prefer the free-market but it needs a major over-haul and good people in charge of it, not the exploiting, selfish bastards we have now.

Communism isn't anything this country is going to see anytime soon if ever so it's really an over-reaction IMO, ask a communist if they think it's practical at this time in history to employ...most likely they will say no but it's an ideal.

It's good that you espouse a "free market", but that's not what we have. OWS is merely trying to replace one regulated market with another type of regulated market - neither is truly a "free market". IMO, the problem is not so much in which sort of regulated market we have, but in that it's regulated at all. That's a slippery slope - any regulations are going to benefit SOMEONE. OWS merely wants to replace the current "someone" with a different "someone".

The key, I think, would be to implement a system where regulations protect neither corporation nor industry. There is no such thing as "too big to fail", whether under socialism or the fascism we have at the moment. The only regulations I can think of that ought properly to be emplaced would be those which directly protect the consumer, and even then it's a fine line to walk between "protecting the consumer" and going whole-hog overboard. In NO case should a corporation or industry which has mismanaged itself encounter artificial life support at the expense of the people.

It should be allowed to die a natural death, the natural consequence of gross mismanagement.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I'm not saying communism is the answer. I clearly said that I prefer the free-market but it is in deperate need of an overhaul. The major examples of communism have been a disaster, I agree 100%. However, our current form of capitalism aka corporatism/colonialism is in fact gaining ground rapidly on becoming equally disasterous.

reply to post by SLAYER69


In regards to communism and how it pertains to OWS consider this.

Joseph Stalin coined the phrase "American exceptionalism", why? Because to him it seemed like a communist revolution would have a hard time getting started in America due to the strong middle class and social mobility, not even during the Great Depression did it reach a tipping point.

The middle class in this country is getting squeezed big time, anyway you look at it that's true.

I see OWS as standing up against the decline of the middle class.

reply to post by Kali74



AND...

I've said numerous times here at ATS that I agree with the General premise of the movement but think they should do a little house cleaning if they want to gain more support than just a few thousand people at these protests.

There is something seriously wrong when a Star Trek convention attracts 15,000 routinely and when OWS gathers that many they are ecstatic.