The ugly truth about Native American "shamans," "wisdom keepers" and "spiritual teachers"

I would also like to clear up some of the confusion regarding gifts to healers. In the old days this was how a healer was able to support themselves. If a healer spent their time hunting fishing and other essential activities necessary for survival, that would leave little time to be a healer. The same is true in our day and age. The gifts we usually give are tobacco, meat, gas money. Remember that today you can no longer walk across the village to help someone, you have to drive. The time they use to help you could instead be used to support themselves. A good analogy would be to compare how holy men in the old world would support themselves through charity. Then look how that system was corrupted. Popes and cardinals dressed in finery with jewels and titles paid for by the guilt of catholics. A whole city of riches was born named the Vatican. It went from only enough to sustain them to give them more money than they know what to do with. Somewhere along the line the church leaders forgot how to be humble. So what I'm trying to say is gifts are allowed to an extent. You don't have to buy a car for them, just help them out with the gas so they can come see you.

reply to post by sylvie


Seems as you took some personal experience and began to paint every shaman with this brush...

seems irresponsible that your title is about shamans in general not just "plastic shamans"...

Originally posted by Rezwar
reply to post by sylvie

 

I would also like to address the people who think our religion is silly and fake. I have witnessed much in this world that would shake a persons confidence in their view of how the world actually works and what is possible.

Ditto. It's a fact that the world is a lot stranger than most people think.

Science is proving through quantum mechanics that everything is indeed connected. One lump of matter may affect another lump of matter without any contact. Something native peoples have been trying to teach the world for quite some time. Every object and being in this universe is connected on the spiritual plane. They are calling it quantum physics because they cannot fully understand how it works. It does not obey the normal laws of physics.

Fascinating -- do YOU know how it works? Can you elaborate?

In the future I would recommend visiting a native american reservation if you are looking for spiritual guidance. Bring some tobacco and an open mind. We have visitors on the reservation I live on from all over the world from peru to switzerland.

I'd love to, but unfortunately there are no reservations in my state. Though when I lived in AZ, I tried to visit the Hopi rez with a friend once, and they were not amused. There were some "guards" posted at the entrance to Hopiland, and they told us flat-out we had no business being there. Maybe it's different for every tribe, but now I'm kind of skittish on intruding on a reservation.

Originally posted by wrdwzrd

All of this ancient knowledge, at some point, comes from the same place. Whether it is an First Nations Medicine man, Peruvian Shaman or Celtic Druid, its all the same.

This is what our sacred teachings have told us. Somewhere along the line the other races forgot their purpose. I'm fascinated by the antideluvian myths. I have done a research paper examining the similarities in flood myths from the old and new world. I do not believe they were describing a single event with one group of people. They were describing separate accounts of the same worldwide event. This would explain why so much of our ancient history is wiped from the record of time. Could also explain why bottlenecks appear in our dna history.

yes Rezwar, you are right, agree with both your points! when I first wandered into the world of meditation and energy healing there were lots of people who wanted to charge for this fee and that fee and eventually i found the right honorable people who still live by the code of donation and exchange. ALL healing work must be done with an exchange but that exchange can be anything, food, flowers, etc. Also, in the case where money is exchanged the healer (or whatever you want to call them) should and will work on a pay what you can scale. if you can afford a hundred bucks and want to pay that then great, if you can afford five, thats awesome too.

Look at Z.Domancic in Slovenia who works with peoples energy, he sees around 100-200 people a day and charges nothing for the visit, just an exchange, it can be as simple as a hug. Thats how it is supposed to be done!

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by sylvie

 

Seems as you took some personal experience and began to paint every shaman with this brush...

seems irresponsible that your title is about shamans in general not just "plastic shamans"...

As I said in one of the posts, Native Americans DO NOT HAVE "shamans" -- the only natives that call their healers shamans are a tribe in Siberia and some down in the Amazon rainforest. In other words, if someone is or claims to be Native American and calls himself a "shaman," he's a fraud. If a white guy calls himself a shaman and claims he has studied under Native American shamans, then he's a fraud as well.

I'm not saying there can't be any white people who are real shamans... I'm sure there are a few who have studied for a decade or so under a shaman in the rainforest or whatever, living with the tribe for many years until they really learned their ways. Anyone else is a fraud. Crass, but that's my opinion.

I'd love to, but unfortunately there are no reservations in my state. Though when I lived in AZ, I tried to visit the Hopi rez with a friend once, and they were not amused. There were some "guards" posted at the entrance to Hopiland, and they told us flat-out we had no business being there. Maybe it's different for every tribe, but now I'm kind of skittish on intruding on a reservation.

huh, really?
there must have been a closed ceremony going on.
i visit hopilands every year, usually more than once.

they even have reggae concerts.
link

Originally posted by Rezwar
I would also like to clear up some of the confusion regarding gifts to healers. In the old days this was how a healer was able to support themselves. If a healer spent their time hunting fishing and other essential activities necessary for survival, that would leave little time to be a healer. The same is true in our day and age. The gifts we usually give are tobacco, meat, gas money. Remember that today you can no longer walk across the village to help someone, you have to drive. The time they use to help you could instead be used to support themselves. A good analogy would be to compare how holy men in the old world would support themselves through charity. Then look how that system was corrupted. Popes and cardinals dressed in finery with jewels and titles paid for by the guilt of catholics. A whole city of riches was born named the Vatican. It went from only enough to sustain them to give them more money than they know what to do with. Somewhere along the line the church leaders forgot how to be humble. So what I'm trying to say is gifts are allowed to an extent. You don't have to buy a car for them, just help them out with the gas so they can come see you.

That's very laudable. However, that opens up a question: if a traditional medicine man lived with his tribe and they took care of his physical needs, then today the situation is vastly different. I don't know if medicine men on the reservation have to pay rent or a mortgage, but I assume not. What I'm getting at is that today, there's so much more to survival than just meat and gas money. What about utilities to keep the lights and heat on? And so forth.

So, when you say that healers/spiritual teachers like that shouldn't live in luxury at the expense of their brethren, I totally get that. What about making enough money, though, to pay all your bills? One Indian woman who seemed to be legit (and didn't make fortunes with her teachings) told me that while it was a natural thing to support the medicine men/women for tribes people, modern/white people don't "get" the principle, and often, if they're not asked to give anything, they simply won't, even if they have plenty of money -- leaving the teacher/healer in abject poverty unless he or she ASKS for at least travel expenses, food, lodging, etc.

Not trying to tick you off here; it's just great to have a chance of a real dialog with a Native American.

reply to post by sylvie


I can only share what I think to be true. It's hard to describe but I will try my best.When you go past physics and start dealing with the smallest particles, the laws of physics change and become unpredictable. In quantum physics an object can be in two places at once. The matter and energy of the entire universe is comprised of frequencies and vibrations. With this in mind ask what are spoken words and chants? Vibrations and frequencies.
So when people say words will never hurt them, they are wrong. Words, thoughts and emotions can affect all beings around them. This is why the most important value of my people is kindness, speak in a kind voice and live in balance with creation. Our whole ecosystem is dependent on all parts of the whole working together in harmony to achieve balance. Chaos theory is also helpful in understanding. It goes much further than the physical aspect of chaos theory however. There is also a spiritual or quantum component. When you kill a tree, you are also hurting the plants around it without any contact with them. They live in communities so to speak.

About the Hopi, they are not very friendly to the outside world and with good reason. Many do not know of the horrors inflicted upon native peoples. In the beginning it was outright genocide that was killing us, then the tactics changed to helping us by stealing our children and sending them to concentration camp type boarding schools.(Hitler used data acquired by the U.S. government to begin his concentration camps) In actuality this did more to destroy our way of life than the genocide. I think this was planned. Many tribes have forgiven but the Hopi still hold resentment. They do not understand that this knowledge was given to us by the creator who entrusted native peoples to protect it not only for ourselves but for those who would need it in the future. Our prophets told us long ago we would accept a false promise from the white man. This turned out to be western religion. We were told if we accepted this promise we would nearly be destroyed. History confirms this. If you are looking for guidance the Hopi are not the only ones with this knowledge. I hope I have helped.

reply to post by sylvie


You raise good points. Our healers are employed by the tribe in our language program. They are allowed to leave on emergency calls and whatnot. This seems to be the case with the other reservations I have visited. I know not all do this but it is a good idea. So the most a healer would usually require is gas money and some tobacco for thanks. You could also skip paying for their travel expense by going to see them instead. The gift giving is much more than just someone taking and someone receiving. It is showing them you respect the time and effort they have put in so they can acquire the knowledge to help you.

I can save you a lot of time by telling you this. Healers and spiritual people do not like it when a person thinks they know everything. For example in a ceremony a person does something wrong because they assumed that was the way. All they had to do was ask. It's a lesson in humility. Most will not tell you unless you ask. lessons tend to stick in your mind when you find out for yourself rather than being told, but they will answer to give you a helping hand.

Originally posted by Rezwar

So when people say words will never hurt them, they are wrong. Words, thoughts and emotions can affect all beings around them. This is why the most important value of my people is kindness, speak in a kind voice and live in balance with creation.

That sounds great... unfortunately, in our society many people are outwardly agreeable (because they've been taught to act like that) but inwardly are seething with frustration and anger. Frankly, I'm more comfortable with people who are somewhat blunt and straightforward than those types; at least there's no guess work involved. However, when a person is genuinely kind and non-judgmental, there's nothing better than that. Still working on that one myself; as a German, I'm more used to the blunt way (some call it "rude").

When you kill a tree, you are also hurting the plants around it without any contact with them. They live in communities so to speak.

Yes, I read that the white settlers killed uncounted numbers of American medicinal plants by felling all the trees they used to grow around.

About the Hopi, they are not very friendly to the outside world and with good reason. Many do not know of the horrors inflicted upon native peoples. In the beginning it was outright genocide that was killing us, then the tactics changed to helping us by stealing our children and sending them to concentration camp type boarding schools.(Hitler used data acquired by the U.S. government to begin his concentration camps) In actuality this did more to destroy our way of life than the genocide. I think this was planned. Many tribes have forgiven but the Hopi still hold resentment. They do not understand that this knowledge was given to us by the creator who entrusted native peoples to protect it not only for ourselves but for those who would need it in the future. Our prophets told us long ago we would accept a false promise from the white man. This turned out to be western religion. We were told if we accepted this promise we would nearly be destroyed. History confirms this. If you are looking for guidance the Hopi are not the only ones with this knowledge. I hope I have helped.

That surprises me; I thought the Hopi were the only Indian nation that still held steadfast to its traditions... and that they were also the only Indian nation that was never violent, even before the white settlers came.

reply to post by sylvie


While it is true the hopi have held fast to their beliefs, it was only because they lived in a land the government deemed undesirable. They were still subject to the boarding school era but to a much lesser degree. The further west you go, the more native peoples have held onto their beliefs. Tribes east of the Mississippi had not fared as well since this land was seen as valuable and the natives living there were more aggressively re-educated through the boarding school system. This kind of american history is not one the government is proud of. Did you know Oklahoma was set aside as indian territory? Then politics shifted as settlers lusted for the land they did not yet have.

Most people see native americans as the stereotypical drunk and never wonder why. If your children were ripped from you by government agents, beat for speaking their language, at times killed, raped by priests, if they were lucky maybe get sent back to you, would you honestly think they would make very good parents when they grew up? Stripped of their way of life, then expected to function in a world alien to them. Their whole time is spent at this concentration camp school being told everything about being native american is wrong and everything the white man is bringing is good and just. The only reason our knowledge has survived at all is because it was hidden. Not all children were found by BIA agents and kidnapped. People only see the result and blind themselves to see the cause.

Still working on that one myself

I think everyone should be working on that lol I know I certainly am. No one is perfect we are all human. We are here to learn. Wouldn't be much of a lesson if you knew how without experience. It's a slow process, lots of genuine forgiveness. Empathy by seeing your possible negative actions through another persons eyes, then choosing not to follow through with those negative actions. Accepting people for who they are. The creator has a plan for all of us good and bad. If we were all the same the world would not be a very good place, we would lose what makes us human. reply to post by sylvie

Sylvie - may I suggest that you look into your own (presumably) Germanic spiritual heritage. For example, there's a writer called Brian Bates who has written books about Anglo-Saxon spirituality (similar to continental German) and has actually been officially supported by Native American elders because they recognise the uncanny similarities in practice and belief.

I find it sad - though understandable - that so many Europeans are obsessed with Native American culture when our original culture is equally as rich, mysterious and spiritual. There really is no need to 'jump ship'.

Originally posted by sylvie

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by sylvie

 

Seems as you took some personal experience and began to paint every shaman with this brush...

seems irresponsible that your title is about shamans in general not just "plastic shamans"...

As I said in one of the posts, Native Americans DO NOT HAVE "shamans" -- the only natives that call their healers shamans are a tribe in Siberia and some down in the Amazon rainforest. In other words, if someone is or claims to be Native American and calls himself a "shaman," he's a fraud. If a white guy calls himself a shaman and claims he has studied under Native American shamans, then he's a fraud as well.

I'm not saying there can't be any white people who are real shamans... I'm sure there are a few who have studied for a decade or so under a shaman in the rainforest or whatever, living with the tribe for many years until they really learned their ways. Anyone else is a fraud. Crass, but that's my opinion.

You do realize that white people come from tribes too right?



Shamanism is a HUMAN trait.. not a trait that is the sole property of one tribe or another...

perhaps you didn't realize this.

HunkaHunka is right about whites belonging to tribes. They were separated from nature by the roman empire. This longing for something they knew was missing but very very difficult to find again is the reason so many look outward for answers. Whites also used to wear their hair long like native americans. We feel it's our connection to creation and the creator. Cut it off and you become numb to the pain you cause the world.

Originally posted by Rezwar
reply to post by sylvie

 

While it is true the hopi have held fast to their beliefs, it was only because they lived in a land the government deemed undesirable. They were still subject to the boarding school era but to a much lesser degree. The further west you go, the more native peoples have held onto their beliefs. Tribes east of the Mississippi had not fared as well since this land was seen as valuable and the natives living there were more aggressively re-educated through the boarding school system. This kind of american history is not one the government is proud of. Did you know Oklahoma was set aside as indian territory? Then politics shifted as settlers lusted for the land they did not yet have.

Most people see native americans as the stereotypical drunk and never wonder why. If your children were ripped from you by government agents, beat for speaking their language, at times killed, raped by priests, if they were lucky maybe get sent back to you, would you honestly think they would make very good parents when they grew up? Stripped of their way of life, then expected to function in a world alien to them. Their whole time is spent at this concentration camp school being told everything about being native american is wrong and everything the white man is bringing is good and just.

I know, it's terrible. I read that up until the 1970s, some Native American women were forcibly sterilized. One Indian woman told me that the reason that there are so few "pure-bloods" these days is that Indian women in the 19th and 20th centuries married white men to have some sort of protection from the government.

Originally posted by Cythraul
Sylvie - may I suggest that you look into your own (presumably) Germanic spiritual heritage. For example, there's a writer called Brian Bates who has written books about Anglo-Saxon spirituality (similar to continental German) and has actually been officially supported by Native American elders because they recognise the uncanny similarities in practice and belief.

I find it sad - though understandable - that so many Europeans are obsessed with Native American culture when our original culture is equally as rich, mysterious and spiritual. There really is no need to 'jump ship'.

Do you have any links to get me started?

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by sylvie

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by sylvie

 

Seems as you took some personal experience and began to paint every shaman with this brush...

seems irresponsible that your title is about shamans in general not just "plastic shamans"...

As I said in one of the posts, Native Americans DO NOT HAVE "shamans" -- the only natives that call their healers shamans are a tribe in Siberia and some down in the Amazon rainforest. In other words, if someone is or claims to be Native American and calls himself a "shaman," he's a fraud. If a white guy calls himself a shaman and claims he has studied under Native American shamans, then he's a fraud as well.

I'm not saying there can't be any white people who are real shamans... I'm sure there are a few who have studied for a decade or so under a shaman in the rainforest or whatever, living with the tribe for many years until they really learned their ways. Anyone else is a fraud. Crass, but that's my opinion.

You do realize that white people come from tribes too right?

Shamanism is a HUMAN trait.. not a trait that is the sole property of one tribe or another...

perhaps you didn't realize this.

edit on 13-12-2011 by HunkaHunka because: (no reason given)

I don't really care if people want to learn shamanic journeying or do drumming circles (personally, I love drumming circles because the rhythm puts you into a trance-like state). But then they shouldn't call it "Native American" and pretend it's the "original" or some such. Here's a website with shamanic groups and such all over the world, and many offer "Native American" this and that. The leaders of those groups have colorful names like Turtle Firewalker (I'm not making this up) and Buffalo Medicine Wolf: www.shamaniccircles.org...

Originally posted by Rezwar
HunkaHunka is right about whites belonging to tribes. They were separated from nature by the roman empire. This longing for something they knew was missing but very very difficult to find again is the reason so many look outward for answers. Whites also used to wear their hair long like native americans. We feel it's our connection to creation and the creator. Cut it off and you become numb to the pain you cause the world.

I know, just the other day I found several threads on here about cutting your hair, and how it an extension of your nerve endings and lets you sense energy and so forth. I now regret that I recently got a chin-length haircut. Have already looked into some moon cycle calendars to find out what the best dates are to have it trimmed so it grows long and thick, fast.