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The ugly truth about Native American "shamans," "wisdom keepers" and "spiritual teachers"

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posted on Dec, 14 2011 @ 02:11 PM
reply to post by sylvie

When I say shamanism.. I mean that which emerges from tribal cultures... regardless of continent of origin...

but I agree.. we don't need to appeal to some false authority like the native americans to practice

posted on Dec, 15 2011 @ 05:32 AM
Wow, I'm a bit shocked, naive too I guess, however you educated all of us to an outstanding degree and Thank You for that in itself.
As an angelo, "euro-mutt", I have had only a few deep, honest & long relationships with true native peoples with which are still deeply valued over decades. These relationships have identified myself in other cultures as accepted and named such as a bird or the sky itself, such titles clarified when Tibetan Monks referred to me as "Rinpoche Lama". Confused, a Nepalese friend clarified the name as "Exalted" & "Teacher" in that order.
My friend, Tartan, who I was helping build a temple for, is simply referred to as "Rinpoche", But to clarify his title is "Rinpoche Guru", Or otherwise, "exalted guru". Some people might know of him as "Tarthan Tulku", "Rinpoche Guru"... So, getting to the point, this woman's son, apparently was regarded as "exalted" in some regards, by who knows who, usually a student of some sort.
So just because somebody thinks that I am a very good teacher doesn't necessarily mean that the title applies to everyone I come in contact with, and same goes for that woman's son of course.
North american apache indians calling me big sky, and peruvian indians referring to me as living with the birds, and of course the tibetan monks referring to me as an exalted teacher, doesn't have any bearing on me having an honorary PhD in philosophy of applied theoretical metaphysics.
My given name could be big jerk who talks too much about himself, or at least on this blog.
You know that in philosophy and metaphysics, people will live in their own dreams to the point of manifestation or failure and collapse.
My apologies, I should have sent you a direct message.
Delete this as you see fit thank you.

posted on Dec, 15 2011 @ 04:38 PM
reply to post by HunkaHunka

How are you to judge what is false and what is true? You know next to nothing about true native american culture so I do not see how you could arrive at your conclusion. The bulk of your perceived knowledge most likely comes from white authors or worse television.. This leads to a bias viewpoint. Much of this knowledge is wildly inaccurate based on assumptions and only serves to further the feeling of racial superiority in the white race. Even some of the native authors are a problem because of the brainwashing done to them in the BIA concentration schools.

The colonists have stolen everything they could possibly get their hands on and tried to destroy what they could not. You can call your new age religion whatever you want, just leave native peoples out of it and everything will be just fine. There is much that you do not know. Like i said it was hidden from your race. Untold amounts of ancient knowledge was destroyed by white churches because it made manifest destiny a problem. The church stated that if this land was not populated by christians they could rightfully take it in the name of the lord. The problem is native teachings mirrored those of the bible. Easy enough to fix that just destroy all the evidence and ban the native religion. I will not stand by as you falsely accuse my culture. Do yourself a favor and accurately educate yourself on these subjects.

posted on Dec, 18 2011 @ 02:00 PM
reply to post by Rezwar

You are hilarious... EVERY CULTURE has shamanism...

It is , in fact, in each and every person waiting to be unlocked....

posted on Dec, 18 2011 @ 02:58 PM
Great thread and awesomely detailed posts

We have a lot of the whitewashed cultural appropriation going on where I live, with many native communities. Interestingly, many German 'shamans' living out in the wilderness with their flocks...I'm leery of any cobbled-together form of spirituality and prefer lineage routes (tried and tested..).

I was just in Peru and had wanted to see shamans in Cuzco (as that's what every foreigner wants to do, right?) I was warned off saying that many that cater to spiritual tourists are shysters and while some of them have actual shamanic training, some use it for purely material gain and can get all up in your energy field, hooking onto you or your family through you, energetically.

posted on Dec, 19 2011 @ 04:03 PM
reply to post by HunkaHunka

When you said "appeal to some false authority like native americans" is where I have the problem with you. You implied my culture and religion is false. A hippie calling himself a native shaman who follows his wallet and a native american who follows the beliefs of his ancestors are two very different people.

posted on Dec, 19 2011 @ 06:28 PM
I think what it is..people have this obsessive need to feel have a be "in the know" on spiritual issues especially..and, they think, "if I make a few bucks on the way, whats the harm"?

Well, the harm is enormous. you denigrate true spiritual tradition, whatever one the charlatan has taken on, you mislead people, fleece people, and make it that much harder for the TRUE shaman/witch/healer/mystic that walk the earth helping people, without fanfare. I referred to myself earlier in the thread as a rosicrucian..and, although I'm studying rosicrucianism, and I'm a member of an order, I've no business referring to myself in that way yet. guess I wanted the title..but once you understand the true nature of the paths the true shamans, etc, walk, you understand the courage and sacrifice it takes to walk it. anyone who denigrates that, especially for money, has made a grave mistake. They'll be dealt with, one way or another..

posted on Dec, 19 2011 @ 07:08 PM
So many times when it comes to "healers," and other occult based practitioners, there is a great divide between the REAL ones and those who pretend. Unfortunately, the pretenders, i.e those who do not know what they are doing, give the REAL ones a bad reputation.

posted on Dec, 19 2011 @ 07:11 PM
If you dont like someone put your facts forward first and let your audience decide for themselves if someone is a "fraud and liar". Just some friendly advice.

posted on Dec, 19 2011 @ 08:16 PM

I am laughing over this whole thread a little too hard.....

I have had the argument multiple times....

Are you pagan
Are you wiccan
Are you a witch
Are your a warlock


It grew old....

I practice self improvement...... I am working on energy manipulation... I am working on psychic warfare....

The major issue is the power of my subconscious.... and the fun of deal with it

My answer sounding slightly off... what does this garbage have to do with the title of the thread and the hard work the op went to explain the NA scam...

And the various other little arguments over... mommy she hit me... or little johnny stole my candy...

Listen we are all trapped on this ride together... deal with it... I cant help it that half my ancestors rape, pillaged, and plundered the other half of my ancestors....

I like how the attempt to regain a little power and control are going..... let me know when your all done...

The truth of the matter is America needs here NA heritage to help us see the future....

As for the training.... (I am guessing that is what it sounds like to me) the scientific method is the best way to grow magikally ....

walk through the steps as you practice you magic....

even the cons have something to teach you......

As for the NA experience.... go directly to the source if your interested that much... I got invited my self...

As for the issue of it costing... I say nothing... money may be worthless but some of the things it buys is not...

the old adage of you get your moneys worth is an old adage for a reason, just watch at what you are actually buying.....

posted on Dec, 19 2011 @ 08:38 PM
reply to post by sylvie

You should change your grossely misleading title. You cant just blanket all shamans and the like under this becayse if a few bad apples

posted on Dec, 19 2011 @ 08:57 PM
The bottom line is that any white individual who refers to themselves as a "shaman," is going to open themselves to indigenous attack, whether their intentions are positive or otherwise.

Non-indigenous people do not need to self-identify as shamans, and it is both irresponsible and unnecessary for them to do so. White society has a very long history and tradition of magick, all of its' own. Information about hermetic science, the work of Aleister Crowley, and Israel Regardie's system are all freely available online.

Native Americans, in my observation, are generally entirely unwilling to share their spirituality with anyone who isn't part of their own society, and tend to viciously attack and condemn anyone who seeks to adopt it. As far as I am concerned, however, if they want to keep it, they can do so. We have our own system; we do not need to steal theirs.

To answer the second question though; yes, there are frauds, and lots of them. Brooke Medicine Eagle is probably the single most egregious example who immediately comes to mind. John Perkins also apparently refers to himself as a shaman these days; which is deeply regrettable, because I believe that he is a genuinely positive individual, who *has* undergone a real spiritual awakening, although his choice of self-identification is still likely to leave him vulnerable to attack from Native Americans, irrespective of his own intentions.

The bottom line is that if you are white, you have no right to call yourself a shaman; and if you do so, you're going to get a lot of crap from indigenous groups for it.
edit on 19-12-2011 by petrus4 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 09:30 PM

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by Rezwar

You are hilarious... EVERY CULTURE has shamanism...

It is , in fact, in each and every person waiting to be unlocked....

It is true humans have much potential. We are here to learn from our creator and live in harmony with creation. This seems to be a problem for those who imagine themselves to be mini gods so to speak. There is one Creator and you are definitely not the Creator. You are a human like me but with a inflated sense of worth and superiority. You seek ancient knowledge for your own gain to feed your need for power. This is why it will never reveal it's true secrets to you.

posted on Dec, 27 2011 @ 10:03 PM
Regarding the Kiesha Crowther ordeal

Mentioning points will get you censored, Asking questions will get you ousted.

What a puzzling situation where those who are making an effort to figure out what's going on are considered as Negative, you would think it's a positive action!

Whatever happened to confronting the matter at hand, accepting then acting? Dodging only delays the truth from entering and expanding...Ignorance is bliss, is that what her devoted followers are striving for?

Those who press for Truth are considered a nuisance in a organization that has shown symptoms of dishonesty
edit on 27-12-2011 by Comet2 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 27 2011 @ 11:04 PM

Originally posted by mysterioustranger
I am as well Cherokee. Whatever the basis for her rhetoric, I found the 25 min video interesting, factually sound, and not far off base in any way.

If she's not legit....I believe her message is sound, and well-intended.

Don't claim to know her, her message or have any great knowledge of 'new ageism' but your last line struck a chord which made me pause.

I think the OP's title is a little misleading, which also made me hover over this thread, as it clearly states The ugly truth about Native American[s]...., when in fact there's no ugly truth, assuming that is, we're actually talking about Native Americans. Also, the definitions in quotes are just a play on semantics: "medicine man" could equally replace any of the terms used.

But what I wanted to highlight was the dichotomy in culture between one which felt connected with a world, and everything in it, to one which is totally apart from it, and all consuming – the modern materialist world, with all its self-centred vanity. This was essentially the clash of cultures witnessed within the entire Americas and is a central theme in Stephen Ambrose's book Crazy Horse & Custer.

I read a remarkable book by Ken Wilber called Up from Eden which attempts to map the rise of human conscientiousness from a mythical 'eden', where mankind lived in harmony with his surroundings to where we are at present, and the main thrust of the book was that if mankind is to survive we must somehow return to that state of balance, respect & harmony for our world before we totally destroy it.

I think this is something which must happen so I would agree with you that '[the] message is sound, and well-intended', regardless of its source.

posted on Dec, 27 2011 @ 11:23 PM
Some things just cannot be taught.

posted on Dec, 27 2011 @ 11:45 PM

"So no one really knows what the old beliefs, rituals, ceremonies, looked like. Besides, what kinda turns me off about paganism is the vast pantheons of gods and goddesses; I really like the pantheistic view, i.e., that God/Spirit is expressed and inherent in all of creation.

Yes but Pantheism is not incompatible with polytheism as many would argue that all gods and goddesses are facets of the one because we cannot fully contemplate the totality or God."

Many wiccans can enter and exist the wiccan belief system hence can be evolutionary biologists (like friends of mine and HPs) at the weekend circle.
edit on 27-12-2011 by Tiger5 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 02:31 AM
reply to post by chocise

Agreed. My point exactly. I dont believe anything wasnt well intended and really right-on inher message, and I would take it as such whether its a Shaman, Preacher, Rabbi, Clairvoiant, Psychic, Priest or Prophet.

And as a part-Native American...we would honor the source and the message...not the speaker.


posted on Dec, 29 2011 @ 12:32 AM

edit on 29-12-2011 by Comet2 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 29 2011 @ 01:39 AM
I dont belive anyone who claims to be Cherokee are Cherokee.

Because everyone claims to be Cherokee.

I think its because of that damn song ..

"Cherokee people! Cherokee pride! So hard to live, so proud to die!

or some crap like that.

Oh, and Cher too.

edit on 29-12-2011 by Frankenchrist because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-12-2011 by Frankenchrist because: (no reason given)

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