The ugly truth about Native American "shamans," "wisdom keepers" and "spiritual teachers"

Anyone that believes another human has magical powers is beyond gullible at this point.

Originally posted by sylvie
By the way, Native Americans don't even HAVE "shamans," they have medicine people. The only indigenous peoples that call their medicine men and women "shamans" are in Siberia and a couple tribes in the rainforest, as far as I know.

Exactly.

I spent a big chunk of my childhood on Vancouver Island and remember going to school with a lot of native kids and occasionally there would be some old lady who would come in and teach us crafts, and tell stories and folk-tales. They passed down knowledge of curative herbs and flowers, legends of various totem animals, etc. origin of man legends, etc.. What I remember being most central is a connection to nature but not in a flaky, mystical sense.

The Haida Gwaii go to great lengths to protect their art for that very reason - fear of appropriation - the distinctive 'eye' seen in much of their works is even copyrighted.

Grinding poverty is a huge problem for many of these communities too and charlatans like this sure don't help. Any hostility towards outsiders is very justified; several generations were utterly destroyed by residential schools run by churches many decades ago.

If people really care about native populations and preserving their traditions they should spend their time writing to Members of Parliament in their areas and the Harper government so their funding isn't cut, support them in their fights against resource companies and developers, ensuring treaties are honored and so on.

I also have relatives from India - another people who get fetishized by westerners. It's great to learn about other cultures and traditions and people. Fantastic. But it isn't a weekend feel-good retreat; just make some friends in you want to learn more..

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
reply to post by sylvie

 

Tribal spiritualism was inherent in Europe until the romans brought Christianity and 'civilization'. Surely you have heard of the Druids?

edit: change that to the bloody romans

edit on 9-12-2011 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)

There's a lot of rubbish published about the Druids and Celts too

Took a Celtic studies class in University a long time ago, taught by an elderly man from Scotland. I don't remember the details now but there are writings that many 'new agers' promote as authentic Celtic wisdom that turned out to be based on complete forgeries from a hundred or so years earlier.

He said that because they had an oral history but no writing system, most of what was practiced was lost and most of the current stuff about Druid traditions is quite modern and made-up. He said they weren't nearly as New-Agey mystical as the myths that are promoted - they were quite violent. The most vital thing that was lost though was the tradition of the filid, particularly their satires which were notoriously vicious, even kings feared them.

Originally posted by sylvie
... it's really hard, if not impossible, to find authentic teachings. E.g., modern paganism/Wicca was recreated by Gardner in the, what, 1940s? So no one really knows what the old beliefs, rituals, ceremonies, looked like. Besides, what kinda turns me off about paganism is the vast pantheons of gods and goddesses; I really like the pantheistic view, i.e., that God/Spirit is expressed and inherent in all of creation.

The trouble comes, I suspect, from our detachment from family traditions to trying to find (quite understandably!) something outside of what was passed down to us from our own parents and grandparents.

Take Hindu, which is similar to your objection about paganism. I realised when I talked to acquaintances and friends who grew up in Hindu families, that it's not a religion you can really adopt as a total outsider, unless of course, you marry someone within that religion. Each family with have their God they worship (like Ganesh) and observe the feast days, and have their practices and rituals, and what they do for a wedding or funeral, etc. will be slightly different from what another family in their village does, and what one village does will be different than what the neighboring one does...
Some will have an ancestor or relative who studies more of the religion, usually from a noted local teacher, and will learn more advanced yogic techniques but these are people who spend decades in their learning while most of their family will just follow along with what they were taught; in that regard not that different from a person who grew up Jewish but has a relative who went on to be a very learned Rabbi, or Christian and who has a relative who went on to be a theologian or Reverend, etc.

Many of us simply don't live in a world any more where we are deeply connected to relatives several removes from us, or in a world where we spend our lives for generations around the same relatively small group of people, where there was little movement between populations. We're more mobile, transient but also more disconnected from what would traditionally be our social group - our families and ancestors.

I think even the notion of 'authenticity' itself is a rather modern obsession; fakery is probably just as ancient a phenomena as religion itself. There's even a book that came out a few years back that dealt with that very idea, though I can't remember the title now and one I had in mind I'd like to read at some point.

Originally posted by aaronez
You want REAL?.. THIS is REAL... Crow Clan of the Hopi.. straight from the horses mouth.. but some people.. particularly the "plastic shamans" as you call them.. don't want to hear the real TRUTH...

motherearthfathersky.org...

I've read that book and love it -- but how do you know it is written by the Crow Clan of the Hopi? Obviously the author is anonymous... he could be anyone, really.

Sylvie, it really does not matter if you go to a Shaman who is a hoax or a hoaxer who is really a Shaman, if you are not ready even the true Shaman will not be of any use.

Originally posted by sylvie

Originally posted by aaronez
You want REAL?.. THIS is REAL... Crow Clan of the Hopi.. straight from the horses mouth.. but some people.. particularly the "plastic shamans" as you call them.. don't want to hear the real TRUTH...

motherearthfathersky.org...

I've read that book and love it -- but how do you know it is written by the Crow Clan of the Hopi? Obviously the author is anonymous... he could be anyone, really.

i thought the hopi crow clan changed into the kachina clan generations ago.

Originally posted by sylvie
I'm sure Christians would feel the same way as you do if someone usurped Jesus and made some kind of cartoon figure out of him (see the "Buddy Christ" from the movie "Dogma" for a good example).

That's exactly how new religions/philosophies branch. The Protestant version of God/Jesus was a Buddy Christ type modification of the Catholic, which was a merging of many branches of disparate Christian sects which were all Buddy Christ versions of Judaism which was a merging of many disparate regional religions/spiritualities back with this cycle of merge/split for as long as we can see.

That's what is happening here... it is the "making of the sausage" ugly part of watching those teachings evolve and spread through the Western world... transforming it in the process, but being transformed in the process.

The fact is many people have to go through people like this as a first step. Similar to grades in school... but self driven (always the best). This doesn't mean safety shouldn't be a concern always... and fraud claims shouldn't be cleared up... but these people are actually the pioneers forging the inroads for more informed teachings to finally be shared again and hopefully bring some balance back to our culture's approach to living within an environment.

A new Philosophy -> Tradition -> Spirituality -> Religion -> Dogma -> Force -> Collapse -> New Philosophy cycle will start again in the next culture that is going to evolve out of our current one.

Originally posted by sylvie
[By the way, Native Americans don't even HAVE "shamans," they have medicine people. The only indigenous peoples that call their medicine men and women "shamans" are in Siberia and a couple tribes in the rainforest, as far as I know. Go figure.]

But please read for yourself what Native Americans think of having their sacred ceremonies usurped:

Native people DO NOT believe it is ethical to charge money for any ceremony or teaching. Any who charge you even a penny are NOT authentic.

The Christian Didiache (c. 115 AD) said almost the same thing about itinerant priests. If they stayed more than three days, they were false. If they asked for money-- they were false.

A dear friend of mine was dying of cancer and seeing a medicine man-- who she sometimes also referred to as a Shaman.

I think "Shaman" was intended as descriptive-- and for that matter, so was "medicine man" -- each term evoking the sense of wise spiritual persons willing to assist with the needs of body and soul.

Not too long ago I posted a reply on this thread It's on! Choose your future now!

My reply was:

Really can't believe so many people on ATS gave you a flag Op... In my opinion Keisha Crowther sounds like she is ill, that is if she believes whatever she is saying. It just doesn't make any sense, well to me anyway. I like to believe i'm a "spiritual person", with a moderate understanding of different religions and belief system, but she is not offering any proof of whatever she is saying. I'm usually very open minded, but common now ! Kiesha Crowther: America's Craziest Woman

Well, I got attacked and ridiculed for saying this...funny

reply to post by sylvie


This coming from the Manifestation Queen???

I'll pass...(DOH). I guess I didn't pass quick enough, because here I am...commenting.

reply to post by antar


star star star
The generalization in the OP indicates that your opinion is prolly accurate

OP if you ever ancounter the real thing I hope you are ready to appreciate it for what it is
rather than what it is not

Proof of Magic on Earth:0

reply to post by sylvie


The author is not exactly anonymous. He prefers to let the writing speak for itself and he take a back seat (in typical Hopi fashion). His pahana name is Joel but his Hopi name is Hohongwitutiwa. If you wish to speak with him directly his blog is at:

mountzion144.ning.com...

The original website that contained the information from the Crow Clan is now archived at:

web.archive.org...://www.thebeloveddisciple.org/index.html

Unfortunately it was closed as the server that contained the site was shut down. However the knowledge will not be silenced. I suggest you go through this site in fine detail as it provides more information than the ebook. It has the direct quotes from the Elder who taught Hohongwitutiwa. He passed away in 2007 I think. You will find it very enlightening and it explains the entire alien agenda along with a range of other knowledges that continue to be kept from the masses...

Originally posted by sylvie
Somehow that last post bailed on me and I couldn't add anything. So just to wrap it up: Let's all be more considerate to the needs of the *real* Native Americans... and do them a favor by just leaving their ceremonies and sacred things the hell alone. End of lecture.

S&F

Nice thread!

I agree,wholeheartedly.

reply to post by sylvie


I find the truest Native American traditions, are the SIMPLEST. A Good book that i really enjoed, was Ed Mcgaa's "Mother Earth Spirituality"... Really honest and sincere man.

Now, the european exploitation, and appropriation of Native American ritual, theology and history, is of course, something to suspected.

Its the way of the west, as it was the way of greece, to, like the parasitic blob in the movie "the thing" displace, and then assume, the identity of the culture it takes a hold of.

This happens over, and over again. With Judaism? check! With Hinduism/Buddhism? -->Theosophy? Check. With Islam -- Perennial philosophers - Frithjof Schuon, Rene Guenon, Check...

The western hellenistic mind, wants to pull everything under its sphere of influence, and then 'hellenize' it, while presenting it as unchanged.

reply to post by Jessica6


I somewhat agree with that.

This was Jung partly argues: that one should stick to the traditions of his ancestral consciousness, as opposed to going out and seeking whats in vogue i.e. buddhism, hinduism, or a makeshift combination of traditions New Age", which to me, appears to be the most devoid of spiritual content and integrity.

Originally posted by Destiny777
reply to post by sylvie

 

This coming from the Manifestation Queen???

I'll pass...(DOH). I guess I didn't pass quick enough, because here I am...commenting.

That's what my friends used to call me -- and yes, I'm actually giving the occasional manifestation workshops. Difference is, I'm not usurping anyone's belief system... and it works!

Originally posted by aaronez
reply to post by sylvie

 

The author is not exactly anonymous. He prefers to let the writing speak for itself and he take a back seat (in typical Hopi fashion). His pahana name is Joel but his Hopi name is Hohongwitutiwa. If you wish to speak with him directly his blog is at:

mountzion144.ning.com...

The original website that contained the information from the Crow Clan is now archived at:

web.archive.org...://www.thebeloveddisciple.org/index.html

Unfortunately it was closed as the server that contained the site was shut down. However the knowledge will not be silenced. I suggest you go through this site in fine detail as it provides more information than the ebook. It has the direct quotes from the Elder who taught Hohongwitutiwa. He passed away in 2007 I think. You will find it very enlightening and it explains the entire alien agenda along with a range of other knowledges that continue to be kept from the masses...

Thanks for the info. I'll check it out.

I have to agree with the one poster who is surprised anyone would consider this woman some kind of Native American shaman. I suppose I should give Europeans a break since they most likely never met a real Native American. The only way to be sure you're experiencing a genuine Native American Ceremony is to go down to the local reservation and get to know the people..... you know... the real Native Americans. Some of them are still willing to teach you something. I know because I've been to one, I've visited the home of the tribes' storyteller and he and his daughter were very welcoming. I got to hear about a lot of interesting things. Guess what, nobody charged me a dime! In fact I felt bad, because he decided to buy us dinner at one of the local Indian Casinos even though we protested. Despite their dramatic history and ongoing economic struggles, most of them are still very kind people as long as you treat them with respect.

Honestly I don't understand people who go and pay these fake "shamans" money to take classes on spirituality. I understand the thirst for knowledge and wanting to be closer to nature or the spiritual world, but gullibility is dangerous. If they want money from you, if they don't live what they preach and if their history doesn't add up, don't give them the time of day! Have some common sense. This crackpot presented in the OP is an obvious fraud.