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The ugly truth about Native American "shamans," "wisdom keepers" and "spiritual teachers"

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posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by seabhac-rua
"There's one re-born every minute"


Actually I was surprised to read that Carlos Castaneda was considered a fraud.

Interesting thread. I've always felt that peoples stereotyping of the 'mystical' Native American peoples as a crass symptom of the modern times we live in. It seems that some people develop a 'deep' understanding of tribal spiritualism after the most cursory of glances. Like one guy I know who doesn't bother to read classic books, he simply buys an audio-book version and plays it in his car when he drives around, then professes to be very well read, and will attempt to express his literary knowledge at every given chance.
edit on 9-12-2011 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)


I cannot understand the difference between reading a book with your eyes or listening to it with your ears. Either way you assimilate the thoughts of the author into your mind. Indeed listening to the literary classics gives your friend every right to express his literary knowledge whenever he wishes.




posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by UnlimitedSky
reply to post by sylvie
 


This is horrible news to me. I am very shocked right now.

I am unable to watch the video but need to know where you got your text (the very first bit) about Kiesha Crowther. I am due to give a mandala painting workshop and use the spiral as it appears in sacred geometry. I wanted to refer to the Norway spiral in 2009, and Kiesha Crowther's reference to it as 'the stargates' that has been drawn by all ancient cultures through the ages.

I am shocked and disillusioned.

Thanks for posting.
Nothing is sacred anymore. Always someone feeding their ego and pocket off what should be held in deep regard.

uuuh.


I'm sorry that I disillusioned you... then again, I think it's a good thing. Here are some links where you can read about Kiesha Crowther:

Kiesha Crowther exposed as fraud

This is where the N.A. quote came from

Another video:


An article from NAFPS



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:20 AM
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reply to post by sylvie
 





I know exactly what you're saying, rubbertramp. BTW, I used to live in Sedona, AZ, too, for a few years, and my roommates were avid crystal diggers, mostly at Diamond Point. I probably even know you.


yup, spent lots of time around diamond point.
quartzite and tucson shows have been part of my routine for many years.

another odd one i've been familiar with for years is the 'rainbows'.
wear a scarf, talk the talk and give yourself a name like '2 feathers' does not make you spiritual or indian.
don't get me wrong, there are many good drainbows who do have a kind heart, but much of it is wanna-be
injun.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:21 AM
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reply to post by groingrinder
 


The point I'm trying to make is that reading a 400 hundred page book requires more effort than having a 45 minute, condensed, sometimes dramatized, tape playing in your car while you are driving.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by sylvie


Yes, but don't be so hard on white people wanting to learn Native American ways. In itself, I actually think that's a good sign. N.A.s are one of the few original hunter-gatherer, tribal societies -- Europeans DON'T actually have anything like that in their ancestry. Our ancestors were all farmers and lived under feudal governments.





Don't be so sure of that.

Our ancestors 500 years ago lived in feudal governments (and you can argue that we still do), but if you go back a bit further our cultures were very similar to the native americans (of north america).

I'm a European, and I have visited and seen first hand native american rituals in Utah and in the amazon. The major difference is that the ancient (Northern and Central) European knowledge of spiritualism was destroyed by Christiany a few hundred years before the american natives' spirituality and religions were destroyed.

Not only that, but to say that native americans were all hunter-gatherer societies is completely silly. They had highly advanced civilizations that went right alongside europeans. At some points you could even argue they were more advanced (pre-incas such as the Tihuanacu empire).



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:28 AM
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reply to post by sylvie
 


Tribal spiritualism was inherent in Europe until the romans brought Christianity and 'civilization'. Surely you have heard of the Druids?

edit: change that to the bloody romans
edit on 9-12-2011 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by fedeykin
 


basically agree with much of what you say.
biggest difference basically metalurgy.
euros armed themselves with weapons much more advanced that the native americans.
i truly believe this led to the downfall more that other things like disease.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:34 AM
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Good post, I wanted to ask about one thing you stated specifically.
The medicine wheel, where did you find out it was fraudulent?
i would like to check the source.

I found a source, not sure if it was yours.
source
edit on 9-12-2011 by KingAtlas because: add



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:39 AM
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Sun Bear used the Medicine Wheel as a teaching tool and as a way to "bridge the gap" between the two culture types. Really, though, it's all about faith. There are tons of Mormons, and their teachings were all made up by a recent American. Who is to say what is right or wrong?

Believe what you need to believe to be who you are and happy.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:49 AM
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I enjoyed reading this post. I've never heard of most of those you call out as plastic shamans. It's interesting information. I'm not obsessed with Indians nor their culture but I do use their core process on a regular basis. No one taught me. It was a natural phenomena. I confirmed it when I tracked a 'plastic shaman' on their soul retrieval for a student in a workshop. I saw exactly what the 'shaman' saw. I was surprised. I had always considered my 'journeys' to be my own private form of insanity/healing.....just a 'dream', so to say. It happens automatically when I run. I still run half-marathons. I had no idea that there was another level of reality that was 'real'.

I never refer to any authority. I just ask my teachers in the upper world and they explain what I need to know. I've discovered some highly guarded secrets that way...never had a reason to inquire about the Medicine Wheel. It doesn't call me at all.

My only comment is that the Native Americans did not invent the journey process. It's a natural function of all humans and has been around since we have. Native Americans sometimes act as if they own the process and reign over it. I'm not fond of them for that reason. (I'm 15% Ojibwa) That's like Catholics 'inventing' prayer and claiming dominion over all forms of prayer. I don't need to talk to Indians nor hear their prophecy. I've got my own connection. Thank Goodness! (judging from all the plastic shamans and charlatans running around selling their services!)

P.S. My point would be (in all that story up there): We are all connected to the creative intelligence (if you think like that
) We can connect to it ourselves...no middle man. The Master looks back at you from the mirror. )
edit on 9/12/11 by RainbeauBleu because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:51 AM
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I'd guess that a shocking 80% of new-agers are frauds, hucksters or ungenuine and our inexperience makes us naively fall for them.

Traditional Spirituality (Religion) has failed in adequately addressing new Generations, so all those who feel there is something more to life and reality are susceptible to all kinds of nonsense. But it takes some disillusionment to find who and what is genuine.

Nice post.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:53 AM
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TY OP


Been saying that for a long time. Even being NDN myself with my own mom still on rez, people here on ATS will argue the "shaman" bs with me if I dare call it exactly what it is... and mention these rez dog women shamans being flakes.
I am hoping a certain friend will stop by this thread ( same tribe as me) and let you in on his friend who is a "shaman" and has a special white folks ceremony and following. PT Barnum must have been a genius concerning psychology because no truer words were ever spoken... sucka born every minute. The thing is, they are willing suckers. They WANT to believe this crap and will vehemently fight you when you try to save them from their own ignorance. IMO ( now that Im old, because I did not always feel this way) let them live their fantasy.... what can you do besides offer the truth and let them decide on their own?

Again, thanks for doing the research and making such a complete thread. Maybe you can prevent some dopes from getting fried in a "lodge" this time around due to stupidity or prevent some from shelling out big bucks to these so-called holy men/women. If there isnt a demand for this crap by non-NDNs there wont be as many out there making a mockery of my culture.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by rubbertramp
reply to post by sylvie
 





I know exactly what you're saying, rubbertramp. BTW, I used to live in Sedona, AZ, too, for a few years, and my roommates were avid crystal diggers, mostly at Diamond Point. I probably even know you.


yup, spent lots of time around diamond point.
quartzite and tucson shows have been part of my routine for many years.

another odd one i've been familiar with for years is the 'rainbows'.
wear a scarf, talk the talk and give yourself a name like '2 feathers' does not make you spiritual or indian.
don't get me wrong, there are many good drainbows who do have a kind heart, but much of it is wanna-be
injun.



If you spent a lot of time there, you MUST know Steve and D., who used to dig there every opportunity they got.

Anyhow, yes, the "Rainbows"... mostly, as I heard, trust fund kids reliving the '60s. Although I found them quite charming, in a way; they reminded me of the European gypsies.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by fedeykin

Originally posted by sylvie


Yes, but don't be so hard on white people wanting to learn Native American ways. In itself, I actually think that's a good sign. N.A.s are one of the few original hunter-gatherer, tribal societies -- Europeans DON'T actually have anything like that in their ancestry. Our ancestors were all farmers and lived under feudal governments.



Don't be so sure of that.

Our ancestors 500 years ago lived in feudal governments (and you can argue that we still do), but if you go back a bit further our cultures were very similar to the native americans (of north america).

I'm a European, and I have visited and seen first hand native american rituals in Utah and in the amazon. The major difference is that the ancient (Northern and Central) European knowledge of spiritualism was destroyed by Christiany a few hundred years before the american natives' spirituality and religions were destroyed.

Not only that, but to say that native americans were all hunter-gatherer societies is completely silly. They had highly advanced civilizations that went right alongside europeans. At some points you could even argue they were more advanced (pre-incas such as the Tihuanacu empire).



You may be right, fedeykin. However, since, as you say, our ancient cultures were destroyed so much earlier than the one of the N.A., it's really hard, if not impossible, to find authentic teachings. E.g., modern paganism/Wicca was recreated by Gardner in the, what, 1940s? So no one really knows what the old beliefs, rituals, ceremonies, looked like. Besides, what kinda turns me off about paganism is the vast pantheons of gods and goddesses; I really like the pantheistic view, i.e., that God/Spirit is expressed and inherent in all of creation.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by KingAtlas
Good post, I wanted to ask about one thing you stated specifically.
The medicine wheel, where did you find out it was fraudulent?
i would like to check the source.

I found a source, not sure if it was yours.
source
edit on 9-12-2011 by KingAtlas because: add


Here's a page on Google Books -- I was mistaken, Sun Bear wasn't the inventor, but it's nonetheless a pop culture thing.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:06 AM
link   

Originally posted by RainbeauBleu
I enjoyed reading this post. I've never heard of most of those you call out as plastic shamans. It's interesting information. I'm not obsessed with Indians nor their culture but I do use their core process on a regular basis. No one taught me. It was a natural phenomena. I confirmed it when I tracked a 'plastic shaman' on their soul retrieval for a student in a workshop. I saw exactly what the 'shaman' saw. I was surprised. I had always considered my 'journeys' to be my own private form of insanity/healing.....just a 'dream', so to say. It happens automatically when I run. I still run half-marathons. I had no idea that there was another level of reality that was 'real'.

I never refer to any authority. I just ask my teachers in the upper world and they explain what I need to know. I've discovered some highly guarded secrets that way...never had a reason to inquire about the Medicine Wheel. It doesn't call me at all.

My only comment is that the Native Americans did not invent the journey process. It's a natural function of all humans and has been around since we have. Native Americans sometimes act as if they own the process and reign over it. I'm not fond of them for that reason. (I'm 15% Ojibwa) That's like Catholics 'inventing' prayer and claiming dominion over all forms of prayer. I don't need to talk to Indians nor hear their prophecy. I've got my own connection. Thank Goodness! (judging from all the plastic shamans and charlatans running around selling their services!)
edit on 9/12/11 by RainbeauBleu because: added


Great! You're right, listening to your own inner wisdom is certainly the best thing to do (saves you a lot of money, too ;o)).



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by Advantage
The thing is, they are willing suckers. They WANT to believe this crap and will vehemently fight you when you try to save them from their own ignorance. IMO ( now that Im old, because I did not always feel this way) let them live their fantasy.... what can you do besides offer the truth and let them decide on their own?

Again, thanks for doing the research and making such a complete thread. Maybe you can prevent some dopes from getting fried in a "lodge" this time around due to stupidity or prevent some from shelling out big bucks to these so-called holy men/women. If there isnt a demand for this crap by non-NDNs there wont be as many out there making a mockery of my culture.


Haha, QFT. I agree, there isn't much you can do but smile, shrug, and roll your eyes.

The real problem is that people are looking for someone to tell them the answers instead of trying to find the truth for themselves.

People need to be taught that they already know the truth, and can easily find it through self-reflection and thought.



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:10 AM
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reply to post by sylvie
 


thank you for the links.

Absolutely! Imangine I used this fake person with the belief that she is who she claim to be. That would not be good.

I have just cut her out of my course. Good timing, that you posted this today!



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by Advantage
TY OP


Been saying that for a long time. Even being NDN myself with my own mom still on rez, people here on ATS will argue the "shaman" bs with me if I dare call it exactly what it is... and mention these rez dog women shamans being flakes.
I am hoping a certain friend will stop by this thread ( same tribe as me) and let you in on his friend who is a "shaman" and has a special white folks ceremony and following. PT Barnum must have been a genius concerning psychology because no truer words were ever spoken... sucka born every minute. The thing is, they are willing suckers. They WANT to believe this crap and will vehemently fight you when you try to save them from their own ignorance. IMO ( now that Im old, because I did not always feel this way) let them live their fantasy.... what can you do besides offer the truth and let them decide on their own?

Again, thanks for doing the research and making such a complete thread. Maybe you can prevent some dopes from getting fried in a "lodge" this time around due to stupidity or prevent some from shelling out big bucks to these so-called holy men/women. If there isnt a demand for this crap by non-NDNs there wont be as many out there making a mockery of my culture.


Thanks for being so lenient with us, Advantage. ;o)



posted on Dec, 9 2011 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by sylvie

Originally posted by rubbertramp
reply to post by sylvie
 





I know exactly what you're saying, rubbertramp. BTW, I used to live in Sedona, AZ, too, for a few years, and my roommates were avid crystal diggers, mostly at Diamond Point. I probably even know you.


yup, spent lots of time around diamond point.
quartzite and tucson shows have been part of my routine for many years.

another odd one i've been familiar with for years is the 'rainbows'.
wear a scarf, talk the talk and give yourself a name like '2 feathers' does not make you spiritual or indian.
don't get me wrong, there are many good drainbows who do have a kind heart, but much of it is wanna-be
injun.



If you spent a lot of time there, you MUST know Steve and D., who used to dig there every opportunity they got.

Anyhow, yes, the "Rainbows"... mostly, as I heard, trust fund kids reliving the '60s. Although I found them quite charming, in a way; they reminded me of the European gypsies.


yea, i'm sure i know of those you mention. they are actually close friends with my buddy homer and his son danny.
concerning the rainbows, i'd even recommend going to a 'gathering' if anyone gets a chance. like everything else there is the good with the bad. r u still in az.? i'll be heading for the desert in a week of do, would be honored to buy ya' a beer or cup of coffee.
don't worry, i'm nuts but very non-violent.









 
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