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Extreme Chemtrail-day in Holland! Is anyone else seeing this?

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posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by Amanda5
 



I guess someone needs to take him to court and sue him for libel and/or slander - that would sort out the information from the disinformation.


Ted Gunderson died a few months ago. Illness, or old age/natural causes, not "murder" just in case you wonder.

In a nutshell, he makes two claims to have eye-witnessed some "chem"trail airplane operations, at two airports:

Lincoln, Nebraska and Fort Sill, Oklahoma.

Problem is, his story doesn't hold water because, the airport in Lincoln has commercial airline traffic as well as the NE Air National Guard air refueling wing (who he blames). Except, the ANG ramp and facility are right next to the passenger terminal!

In Fort Sill, the airport he refers to, an old Army Air Force base (first ever in the USA, an historic site), has a runway only 5,001 feet long. That is completely unsuitable for modern large jet transport-type airplanes. It is far too short to be able to take-off with any payload and fuel load onboard. Which, for the fantastical claims of "chemtrailning", would be required.




posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 05:26 PM
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reply to post by Amanda5
 


He can't be sued, he's dead.

I searched online for stuff related to Ted Gunderson, I found nothing to make me think I should believe what he was saying, rather the opposite in fact. I don't blithely accept that a high position in the FBI makes him credible on this subject, why would it? Can an FBI involvement be demonstrated from any source? Does the FBI have people working within EasyJet, Qantas and all the rest of the worlds airlines?

The question that, for me, never gets answered satisfactorily is basically why can't "chemtrails" just be contrails?

Everyone who has tried to provide an answer so far has only demonstrated that they cannot really be relied on to make a case because they know nothing about a subject that would be rather central to proving chemtrails exist. A satisfactory answer would be one that a Pilot or Meteorologist might struggle to answer, or be forced to skip over answering at all, just like chemtrailers always seem to do. This has not yet happened.
edit on 16-10-2011 by waynos because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by Amanda5
reply to post by ProudBird
 


The video I watched is of Ted Gunderson speaking - filmed while he stood still for the camera.

I guess someone needs to take him to court and sue him for libel and/or slander - that would sort out the information from the disinformation.

Thanks for the tip about researching here on above top secret but I prefer to research widely. I have found in life that people who are comfortable and don't want to search - for anything - tend to want to stay in their comfort. Comfort can represent the inability to accept change - or on a deeper level - that the world has changed - or on another level - they have been lied to and the shock is sooooo much that they are frozen and unable to move in any direction let alone forward.

Much Peace...


I certainly hope you aren't suggesting that this poster hasn't done his/her due diligence. That would be a travesty, and terribly incorrect.

I haven't gotten a chance to watch either video but I am really getting to the point that when someone mentions Gunderson I really start to question anything connected. I know this sounds really biased and closed minded but most often it is done in a way to suggest that if you don't take everything Gunderson says at face value as absolute stone cold hard fact you are being stupid. Ted Gunderson is/was just a guy, that had a job in the FBI. I don't know much about his career but just being a special investigator/Regional head does not make you infallible nor correct. It is really disconcerting to see people take Gundersons word as law strictly because of his previous career, regardless if he has any knowledge or experience in the subject.

I am not criticizing you or your video suggestions, just seeing if anyone else has these concerns about Ted.



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 05:29 PM
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reply to post by ProudBird
 


While I commend your dignified and articulate approach to educate and convince me I am misguided - I still feel that a part of the jigsaw is missing. Maybe I have been lied to for too long about many aspects of society and this one will remain on my list until such a time as I can be totally certain that chemtrails do not drop chemicals.

The trails exist - contrails or chemtrails - it is obvious there is a visible emission.
What they are? Why they are emitted? Why I am not completely convinced ...as a Child I loved to sit in trees or lie on the grass and stare at the sky including watching planes fly overhead...I do not ever recall seeing anything in my childhood or young adult hood that resembled the criss-cross patterns I have witnessed as an educated and question asking adult.

You are a formidable - articulate - worthy opponent in this discussion but you just have not completely convinced me. Remember it was HItler who underlined in Mein Kampf that when you tell a lie to people just tell it over and over and over and they will believe it. Fundamental psychology tells us that theory works - but - a lie will never turn into the truth - it will just be believed that's all.

Much Peace...



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 05:34 PM
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To those suggesting that Ted Gunderson is not fallible. I agree - we are all only human. However in giving credence to your logic I apply that to any government leader - anywhere in the world - can any of them be believed 100% all of the time.

Thank you for being civil and participating in an articulate discussion - as a relatively new member - it is a lovely surprise from some of the responses in which I have tried to engage.

Much Peace...



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by Amanda5
reply to post by ProudBird
 

The trails exist - contrails or chemtrails - it is obvious there is a visible emission.
What they are? Why they are emitted?


They exist because every ton of jet fuel burned actually makes MORE than a ton of water!

Hard to imagine, but true - the hydrogen in the fuel combines with oxygen in the atmosphere to do so. I got this diagram from a SwissAir website:



When the atmosphere is cold enough, and already holds enough moisture, that "exhaust water" freezes and forms contrails. they look white because they are essentially clouds - like cirrus cloud they are ice crystal clouds.

Mostly the required cold temperatures are found at high altitude - but in places like Antarctica, Alaska, the Canadian & Russian Arctic, you can get them right down to ground level - Alaskans call that "ice fog"

whether a contrail lasts a long time or a short time depends on the atmospheric conditionswhere it exists - if the conditions were marginal for its formation - eg it was only jsut cold enough, or there was only just enough humidity, then it might dissipate in short order. If the conditions were good for it - very low temperature and high humidity, then it might last for hours



Why I am not completely convinced ...as a Child I loved to sit in trees or lie on the grass and stare at the sky including watching planes fly overhead...I do not ever recall seeing anything in my childhood or young adult hood that resembled the criss-cross patterns I have witnessed as an educated and question asking adult.


as a child (in the 60's) I marvelled at contrails when jets first arrived here - peole have different experiences about all sorts of things - ther is no reason why we shouldn't have different memories of contrails too.


You are a formidable - articulate - worthy opponent in this discussion but you just have not completely convinced me. Remember it was HItler who underlined in Mein Kampf that when you tell a lie to people just tell it over and over and over and they will believe it. Fundamental psychology tells us that theory works - but - a lie will never turn into the truth - it will just be believed that's all.


Which is what has happened withthe chemtrail story - it is invented out of nothing, literally, and repeated by people who like to believe the worst - despite all the evidence to the contrary - to the point where it has gained a certain credibility.



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 05:52 PM
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reply to post by Amanda5
 


That's a very healthy scepticism to take, in my opinion. Nobody deserves to be believed without question. Not even me (
).

But, for me, belief or otherwise in Chemtrail theory isn't anything to do with swallowing the government line. My position is borne out of a combination of things, these include;

Obviously fictitious claims made about things that I know from personal experience are not what is presented.

Clearly and poorly faked "evidence" that does not stand up to even a few seconds scrutiny (the mistranslation of the German 'confession' Was a prime example of this, So easy checked, lol)

The fact that scientific explanations I have been familiar with for decades are presented to me as being 'recently made up' or that they 'don't add up' when I personally know that they do.

The fact that I am a long standing member on here of over 7 years and I have yet to see one single piece of faked evidence from the 'anti' Chemtrail side.

When the knowledgeable members on the anti side are asked a question it gets answered openly and gets backed up with verifiable sources and when it isn't I can find my own, but I have asked direct questions to at least 5 extremely vociferous pro Chemtrailers in only this week and not received one single solitary reply.

What would his make you think if it was your experience?

I hope the civility continues, for me it is the only way to have a discussion of any kind.

edit on 16-10-2011 by waynos because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 06:27 PM
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reply to post by waynos
 


Thank you for being civil and you have explained yourself very well I understand your position. I am still not convinced. I still have my instinct - gut feeling - conscience - intuition to live with and I still have some doubt. I will leave you with these two questions. Have you ever been lied to? How did you feel when you realised the truth?

Thank you.

Much Peace...



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by Amanda5
Have you ever been lied to?

Yep, when I was 14 I believed in "chemtrails".

Originally posted by Amanda5
How did you feel when you realised the truth?


I was pissed off at the people promoting "chemtrails", not the guys with the facts.



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by Amanda5
reply to post by ProudBird
 


While I commend your dignified and articulate approach to educate and convince me I am misguided - I still feel that a part of the jigsaw is missing. Maybe I have been lied to for too long about many aspects of society and this one will remain on my list until such a time as I can be totally certain that chemtrails do not drop chemicals.

The trails exist - contrails or chemtrails - it is obvious there is a visible emission.
What they are? Why they are emitted? Why I am not completely convinced ...as a Child I loved to sit in trees or lie on the grass and stare at the sky including watching planes fly overhead...I do not ever recall seeing anything in my childhood or young adult hood that resembled the criss-cross patterns I have witnessed as an educated and question asking adult.

You are a formidable - articulate - worthy opponent in this discussion but you just have not completely convinced me. Remember it was HItler who underlined in Mein Kampf that when you tell a lie to people just tell it over and over and over and they will believe it. Fundamental psychology tells us that theory works - but - a lie will never turn into the truth - it will just be believed that's all.

Much Peace...


I would like to point out, that the Hitler reference can go both ways here. They tell you they are Chemtrails over and over and over again and sooner or later you believe it. =)

Either way it appears you are using your brain and trying to figure things out for yourself. So if you ever find some evidence that refutes these brilliant people schooling us here in this thread I hope you bring it here for scrutiny.



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 06:57 PM
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Of course. And believe me, I am not surprised or shocked that people conclude ha here might be something in this Chemtrail malarkey from the collective bits of info they have.

After all, it is perfectly possible from a technical standpoint, various things have been ejected from aeroplanes over many years from peace leaflets over Germany in 1939 to the pilots themselves when something goes wrong.

I don't even expect people to be convinced by other peoples experience and knowledge, only a persons own experience will really ever convince them.

But I do find it disappointing when verifiable factual information is presented by people who know what they're on about and the reaction isn't "I'll look into this further for myself". It's often "go away you disinfo peddling paid government shill" or similar. It boggles belief that hese same people will clutch at the most shoddily put together pro Chemtrail info as if it is the holy grail, all critical faculties turned to 'off'.

When I see this happening, and I remember who started the whole theory and what he does about it (selling 'cures' to believers) it points me in one direction only.

And like I said, I know it CAN be done, but nothing has yet really shown that it is being done, and if fakery is required for that, it says it all.



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 07:05 PM
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I have something to share I think everyone will get a kick out of no matter what side of the fence you are on. This was taken from another thread on ATS about a viral video with Occupy Wallstreet as the topic.


Originally posted by HazyChestNutz
reply to post by TheNetherlands
 


thats interesting consider the fact that Holland was bombarded with chemtrails recently.


I just couldn't stop laughing.



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by waynos
After all, it is perfectly possible from a technical standpoint, various things have been ejected from aeroplanes over many years from peace leaflets over Germany in 1939 to the pilots themselves when something goes wrong.


That's what makes the obsession with patents so bemusing. It's not like it's complicated to spray things out of planes. And if it were some big secret conspiracy, they would hardly go around patenting it, would they?



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 10:03 PM
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Wierd. Deffo looks like chemtrails.
Took one of your pictures, one of the sun, made it negative, wierd shape,


?


edit on 16/10/2011 by shauny because: (no reason given)


i1111.photobucket.com...
edit on 16/10/2011 by shauny because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 10:16 PM
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reply to post by shauny
 


You mucked up the link - you need to go back to your image, and cut and paste the link given underneath it for inclusion in a post - not het URL (which is what I think you posted??)



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 10:19 PM
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Originally posted by Uncinus

Originally posted by waynos
After all, it is perfectly possible from a technical standpoint, various things have been ejected from aeroplanes over many years from peace leaflets over Germany in 1939 to the pilots themselves when something goes wrong.


That's what makes the obsession with patents so bemusing. It's not like it's complicated to spray things out of planes. And if it were some big secret conspiracy, they would hardly go around patenting it, would they?


And here's an analysis of a bunch of commonly repeated patent "evidence" "proving" chemtrail existence......www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 10:27 PM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by shauny
 


You mucked up the link - you need to go back to your image, and cut and paste the link given underneath it for inclusion in a post - not het URL (which is what I think you posted??)


fixypood



posted on Oct, 16 2011 @ 11:22 PM
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I'm all for conspiracy theories.. even when they aren't likely to be true they are at least often entertaining. Chemtrails are neither. Let's get real... I'm sure somewhere out there, possibly numerous times, some populations have been unknowingly sprayed with some nasty secret.. but this global conspiracy to fly them chemtrail planes all over the world spraying random patterns over random cities is ridiculous. Ludicrous even.

Those are contrails, you live near an airport and the weather conditions are perfect for them.



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by mus8472
So the fact that winter is approaching and the air is cooler thereby creating conditions where hot exhaust is more likely to form a contrail never entered your mind. The first thing you think of is chemtrailing? What about any of these pictures makes you think this is chemicals and not normal airplane contrails?



Contrails disapear, chemtrails don't !

In my picture which was taken in the south of Holland it's exactly the same.
The milky white clouds you see in the left, were (a couple of hours earlier) chemtrails too.

Last saturday was really bizar. Yesterday (sunday) was clear under the same weather conditions.
Now you tell me how this is possible...

Last summer I noticed a strange thing while driving back home from France via Belgium. As soon as we crossed the boarder between Belgium and the Netherlands the chemtrails started appearing although planes fly over different countries and there is no particular border high up in the air. As if they were not allowed to spray in Belgian and France airspace but as soon the Dutch border was crossed they could start again.

Just a little time folks: the world will be hours again so hang on.

Cheers,

Danny (Den Bosch)



posted on Oct, 17 2011 @ 10:19 AM
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reply to post by dannymh
 


Sorry Danny, but until you understand why your opening sentence is wrong, no explanation for the rest of your post is going to make sense to you. And hopefully my posts prior to this one show that I am more open to discussion than some might be and I am not attacking you.




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