'No papers, no water’: The sign denying basic services to Alabama’s illegal residents.

reply to post by DRAZIW


Stop living in the past. In this day and time we have laws and they must be followed. No mater what you say, most citizens are highly opposed to illegal immigration and will stand against it. It is time that our Country thinks of its citizens first.

reply to post by DRAZIW

If you're in a socialist society, where the government hands out all the cookies, then it's important to know the identities of all the individuals--e.g. former Soviet Union-- who have the right to get those cookies. But, if you're in a capitalist society, where the people have to "work" for cash, and use that cash to pay for the cookies, then the identities of the individuals don't matter, because there are no free cookies.

I tend to agree with this assesment, except I would like to add that it is not just about free cookies, but also for example, fight against crime or illegal immigration where the government needs an easy way to identify its citizens.

But the thing is, I do support some socialist elements in a society, I aint no capitalist extremist. Thus our disagreement has deeper roots.

Originally posted by Night Star
reply to post by DRAZIW

 

Stop living in the past. In this day and time we have laws and they must be followed. No mater what you say, most citizens are highly opposed to illegal immigration and will stand against it. It is time that our Country thinks of its citizens first.

It does think about citizens first.

The US indigenous population shrinks by 500,000 every year. To make up that number, the "legal" immigration allows in 500,000 foreigners to take up residence here. That keeps the population fixed. Then the "illegals" come across the border at a rate of about 1,000,000 per year. And that's how the population in the US "grows".

All population growth is illegal immigrants. If you stop the illegals, the population will stop growing. If you stop both illegals and legals the population will shrink.

The fantastic economic growth experienced by the US over the last 50 years has all be due to increased population. More mouths to feed, more people buying cars and houses, and furniture and washing machines, and businesses boom because of that. Florida alone, experienced a growth rate of 1,000 individuals PER DAY entering the state from all over the US and the world. That's how housing boomed in the south. All that money made by all those Americans came from all those IMMIGRANTS.

Since the start of the anti-immigration campaign, the US has entered a tail spin. Immigrants no longer buying houses, not renting apts anymore, lots of spaces unoccupied all around the nation, complete collapse ahead because THERE ARE NO PEOPLE TO BUY THOSE THINGS ANYMORE !

Carry on trucking.

reply to post by DRAZIW

The fantastic economic growth experienced by the US over the last 50 years has all be due to increased population. More mouths to feed, more people buying cars and houses, and furniture and washing machines, and businesses boom because of that.

Nope, it has little to do with population growth. It has to do with brain drain that channels the intelligentsia of the world into the US, if anything. Population growth is a bad influence for economic growth (defined as an increase in GDP per capita, note the per capita). If your theory had any merit, poor African nations would be superpowers by now

And I cant believe how anyone can say housing boom was a positive thing after the crisis. Sub-prime mortgages to minorities and poor were primary cause of the trouble we are in now.

Originally posted by Night Star
reply to post by DRAZIW

 

Stop living in the past. In this day and time we have laws and they must be followed. No mater what you say, most citizens are highly opposed to illegal immigration and will stand against it. It is time that our Country thinks of its citizens first.

Star for you
That old argument kills me every time I hear it. The fact is, we are living in the present, looking to the future and getting away from the past. If some of these pro-illegal supporters had there way, they would just move all Humanity off Earth and give it back to the animals. After all, they were here first. These people cant understand that what matters is now. The laws that matter are in effect now. The immigration of illegals is happening now. And like it or not, they are ALL Criminals and they are ALL breaking the Federal Immigration laws!

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Originally posted by Night Star
reply to post by DRAZIW

 

Stop living in the past. In this day and time we have laws and they must be followed. No mater what you say, most citizens are highly opposed to illegal immigration and will stand against it. It is time that our Country thinks of its citizens first.

It does think about citizens first.

The US indigenous population shrinks by 500,000 every year. To make up that number, the "legal" immigration allows in 500,000 foreigners to take up residence here. That keeps the population fixed. Then the "illegals" come across the border at a rate of about 1,000,000 per year. And that's how the population in the US "grows".

All population growth is illegal immigrants. If you stop the illegals, the population will stop growing. If you stop both illegals and legals the population will shrink.

The fantastic economic growth experienced by the US over the last 50 years has all be due to increased population. More mouths to feed, more people buying cars and houses, and furniture and washing machines, and businesses boom because of that. Florida alone, experienced a growth rate of 1,000 individuals PER DAY entering the state from all over the US and the world. That's how housing boomed in the south. All that money made by all those Americans came from all those IMMIGRANTS.

Since the start of the anti-immigration campaign, the US has entered a tail spin. Immigrants no longer buying houses, not renting apts anymore, lots of spaces unoccupied all around the nation, complete collapse ahead because THERE ARE NO PEOPLE TO BUY THOSE THINGS ANYMORE !

Carry on trucking.

What good does a population growth of illegals do for us if the citizens are jobless and struggling? Illegals send billions of dollars back to their own countries that isn't spent here. It costs us a fortune to educate their children for free, our prison systems are loaded, thousands of our citizens have lost their lives because of illegals etc. Seems to me that they are a drain on the system and causing problems for the American citizens.

In 2005 Banks in America started giving mortgages to illegal aliens.


Google the HUD report saying 5 million illegals were in foreclosure.

The real number now is 24 million illegals walked away from mortgages in America.

They bought and sold homes between themselves and fled America with MEGA-TRILLIONS.

You do the math. Average mortgage of $350,000 times 24 million illegals. All that money went south of the border.


Starting in 2000 GMAC was giving new car loans to illegals in California. Just a utility bill and a little money down and they were handed the keys to a $30,000 SUV or Truck. And they drove them across the border and NEVER paid for them. Hence why GMAC went teeets up.

illegals have been robbing and pillaging America. They NEVER wanted to stay and melt in the melting pot. They robbed America (and the world) BLIND! Unions liked it...kept them working..Politicians like it....they got money under the table to keep it going....military liked it....showed Revenue Growth to keep them funded.

Everyone else was robbed. Artificially inflated home values got you enslaved to a home you'll never pay off before you die....YOUR quality of life goes down because of it. Suckers.

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Originally posted by Gridrebel

So people in the USA in support of illegal immigrants having the same rights as it’s citizens are basically saying that the USA should be the ONLY country in the world that has no illegal immigrant laws.

The "People" in the US have an unique constitution.

It says "We The People..."
Not "We The Citizens.."

The Citizens are that portion of the People who are allowed to "vote". The non-voting remainder are the rest of the "People".

Everyone standing on US soil is one of the "People".

No distinction is made between documented and undocumented People, they are all the People.

The People have all the rights of the land, except the right to vote or hold certain high offices, like President, etc..which is reserved for the Citizens.

The smart founding fathers wanted a land of FREEDOM, for themselves and their posterity.

They understood, that you couldn't have freedom if you tried to "restrict" the basic laws to "some" of the people.

That's because one would then have to identify which of the people are entitled and which are not, and that means an ID system and checking everyone as they move along the road. This then reduces the freedom of the very people who are trying to live free.

So the laws of the land are for all of the "People" who are there.

That meant there had to be a policy of wet foot dry foot, which meant as soon as you set foot on dry land anywhere in the US you are now one of "The People" and entitled to all of the rights of the people of the land. But, if you're found approaching the border from outside, like swimming ashore, then you're wet foot and not yet one of the people, and so not entitled to the rights and privileges of the dry foot folk.

All of the undocumented are part of "The People."

The states are trying to change that. To undo the founding fathers supreme law of the land. Because they don't understand the principle behind the writing of the US Constitution.

"We the People" was written for Americans, not members of others countries. You forgot to mention that "We the People" is applied to a sovereign nation and this is not a "Declaration" for the World.
Nice try though.

Originally posted by Maslo

Nope, it has little to do with population growth. It has to do with brain drain that channels the intelligentsia of the world into the US, if anything.

Brain drain is partly right. But, you need "both". The brain drain brought in the "producers". But, you need some body to sell the products to, that's where the population increase comes in. The vast majority of immigrants that came are "illegal" and "illiterate", but they have some thing of value, they have "drive", "optimism", and "hunger".

The population growth is the key to economic growth, because the US was the only major "consumer" society for a long time. Now that China is beginning to "eat", it is possible for the US to shrink it's population and continue to grow economically if they can sell their products into China.

Japan experienced tremendous economic growth over the last 50 years, because they sold their products to the US, the worlds larges consumer market.

The 1 million illegal immigrants that enter the US every year is the source of all the wealth in America.

They come, provide cheap labor, have little rights, and buy "stuff".

They are the "floor" of the nation. If you remove the floor the building will fall to the ground.

Originally posted by Maslo

But the thing is, I do support some socialist elements in a society, I aint no capitalist extremist. Thus our disagreement has deeper roots.

Most capitalist societies have some social programs. But, you only need to identify yourself when you go up to the cookie bar for that free cookie.

You don't need to identify your self just to walk about the land.

But, when most of the things are free, then you do need ID while you walk the streets.

For example, most public transport is subsidized by the relevant locality. If you're from New York and take a trip to Florida, and you hop on a public bus to go downtown, you pay a low fare to ride that bus, because the locality pays most of it. So, you essentially get a free ride on the Florida bus. That's your free cookie.

As long as there aren't too many free riders, the locality looks the other way. But if lots of New Yorkers come down to Florida every weekend, soon the state would try to find some way of identifying the outsiders and charging them a different rate.

This actually happens in Night Clubs in Florida. If' you have a Florida drivers license, you get a low entrance fee or even free beer, but if not, you're a tourist, you pay full price. The thinking is that the "regulars" create the atmosphere for the Foreigners to enjoy, so the Foreigners pay the big bucks to enter and drink. Since the Foreigners are on vacation, and it's only a temporary inconvenience to them, they accept paying the high prices. If the club tried to charge that high price to the locals, they'd just skip to another club.


So all the undocumented who earn cash but pay no income tax to the state, get that subsidized bus fare to go to work ! So, the citizens are paying the undocumented to get to work. That ain't no way fair. So, the next step is to require everyone to have ID showing they are legal tax paying residents of the state before they can get on a public bus.

We have the technology today to implement a complete law enforcement plan. Everyone will be tracked where ever they go, and only those who have rights will be able to exercise them.

It's called the implantable microchip, otherwise known as the 666 mark.

reply to post by DRAZIW


Good analogy so far, so let us continue it. Eventually the bar owner will realize that his profits are better frOM only serving the New Yorkers versus the locals since word of the bar has spread to New York. So less of that local flavor is there. Eventually the New Yorkers will come to realize that the bar is nothing but a tourist trap and stop coming in. So the bar must close up shop and the waitress and bartenders are out of a job.

It was their taxes that subsidizes the lower fare bus rides and now everyone suffers either increased fares or reduction in bus routes. Won't take long for that Florida city to start looking like Detroit once the tax dollars and tourist income dries up. Again the problem of too many eggs in one basket.

Sure the labor is more cost efficient in China, but when Levi jeans are no longer made in the US. Is it really considered an American Fashion by the rest of the world anymore?

Naturally bills do not get paid by the unemployed. This law is more for getting the locals back on their feet by dispossessing the illegals than it is about denying basic human rights to people. Doesn't make the law "right" but it does seem to be doing what was intended with the law and avoids the dreaded "discrimination" stigma that would have had it voted down in the beginning.

My philosophy is to never refuse another man a drink of water. That still holds true so I do not support the letter of the laws but I understand the spirit of which it was created.

ETA: The easy solution is to rent from where water is included in the rent. I am sure many landlords have already figured that one out and may even advertise that fact.

Originally posted by macman

"We the People" was written for Americans, not members of others countries. You forgot to mention that "We the People" is applied to a sovereign nation and this is not a "Declaration" for the World.
Nice try though.

"We the People" was written for members of other countries who came to America to call it their home.

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Originally posted by macman

"We the People" was written for Americans, not members of others countries. You forgot to mention that "We the People" is applied to a sovereign nation and this is not a "Declaration" for the World.
Nice try though.

"We the People" was written for members of other countries who came to America to call it their home.

Um, no again. That was written for the current American Citizens, and future American Citizens. Not for just any stumble bum that wonders in or crosses illegally into the Country.

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Originally posted by macman

"We the People" was written for Americans, not members of others countries. You forgot to mention that "We the People" is applied to a sovereign nation and this is not a "Declaration" for the World.
Nice try though.

"We the People" was written for members of other countries who came to America to call it their home.

Um, no again. That was written for the current American Citizens, and future American Citizens. Not for just any stumble bum that wonders in or crosses illegally into the Country.

Well of course, the Constitution is only a bunch of "words".

Each person gets to interpret those words according to his own understanding.

People differ on what each part of the constitution says.

That's the beauty of the constitution. You get to interpret it according to your will.

That's your right.

Ultimately, the 9 judges on the supreme court decide what the "executable" interpretation will be, and the opinions of the other 300 million or so inhabitants of the land don't really matter if they conflict with the 9 folk.

However, that 300 million don't have their opinions tested by the 9 day to day, so in actual reality each man among the 300 million actually lives according to his own interpretation of that constitution.

Many of those undocumented believe they have a right to be here. And they do, until somebody challenges them with another opinion.

When the Europeans came, they believed they had the right to be here. They did get some challenges, but in the end they proved that their interpretation was right.

All law is subject to interpretation.

And no one does anything wrong until proved so in a court of law.

reply to post by DRAZIW

But, you need "both". The brain drain brought in the "producers". But, you need some body to sell the products to, that's where the population increase comes in.

Nope, the immigrants are not main consumers, wealthy citizens and the producers themselves are.

The population growth is the key to economic growth, because the US was the only major "consumer" society for a long time. Now that China is beginning to "eat", it is possible for the US to shrink it's population and continue to grow economically if they can sell their products into China.

I dont follow you here

The 1 million illegal immigrants that enter the US every year is the source of all the wealth in America.

They are an economic drain on America, or at best, a neutral force.

They come, provide cheap labor, have little rights, and buy "stuff".

They dont buy stuff, they dont have the money to do so.

They are the "floor" of the nation. If you remove the floor the building will fall to the ground.

The nation has already too much floor. Additional floor will serve no purpose, just drain resources to keep it clean.



Population size has little to no effect on the economy, because it is all relative. What is important is the COMPOSITION of a population, not its size. The law of supply and demand deals with ratios. As long as supply and demand is balanced, it is of little importance whether the US will have 100 or 500 million people. And I believe unqualified labour, which is the domain of most immigrants, to be oversupplied already. Thus influx of more immigrants will harm the economy.

reply to post by DRAZIW


Ok, here we go, Progressive Gooble Dee Goop.
That is all I needed.

On to the next thing.

Just come out and state this "It's a living document that changes with the times", "Open borders" and "What is reality" and that should sum you up nicely.

Originally posted by Maslo

Nope, the immigrants are not main consumers, wealthy citizens and the producers themselves are.

Wealth is "relative". You need people more poor than you to be able to demand their labour for your cash, the undocumented are the labor. That is your wealth.

Try to get your rich neighbor to come cut your grass next time. See how much it costs. See how "rich" you "feel" then !

They dont buy stuff, they dont have the money to do so.

They do buy stuff. They even have money to send back home. They save up, they buy boom boxes to play loud music, they buy cars and modify them to bounce the wheels, they buy all sorts of things. And they have to eat and pay rent, even if they can't yet buy those other things immediately.

One rich person only buys one radio. You need "numbers" of people to buy many radios, or TV sets, etc..too few wealthy people to make up the numbers there. Rich buy richer stuff, like Yachts and private airplanes, that's all. They just move up the ladder to higher things.

The nation has already too much floor. Additional floor will serve no purpose, just drain resources to keep it clean.

Remember, when you remove that floor, then you become the new floor.

And I believe unqualified labour, which is the domain of most immigrants, to be oversupplied already. Thus influx of more immigrants will harm the economy.

That may be true, given that the world is more and more dominated by computers. So, low skilled labor is being replaced by automated technologies. Still, computers and robots don't buy stuff. You need people for that.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by DRAZIW

 

Ok, here we go, Progressive Gooble Dee Goop.
That is all I needed.

On to the next thing.

Just come out and state this "It's a living document that changes with the times", "Open borders" and "What is reality" and that should sum you up nicely.

You want the "easy" answer to things.

The only easy answer is open borders.

reply to post by DRAZIW

Wealth is "relative". You need people more poor than you to be able to demand their labour for your cash, the undocumented are the labor.

As long as unemployment among american citizens is greater than NAIRU rate (cca 4%), you do not need more labor force, in fact you need less, since high unemployment is harmful.

There is no shortage of "relative" poor people among american legal citizens and legal immigrants.

One rich person only buys one radio. You need "numbers" of people to buy many radios, or TV sets, etc..too few wealthy people to make up the numbers there. Rich buy richer stuff, like Yachts and private airplanes, that's all. They just move up the ladder to higher things.

And the richer and more advanced the stuff bought, the more likely will it benefit US economy, and not China. If one rich person buys a private jet or some expensive service, it helps developed US economy more than if 20 people buy largely imported radios and cheap consumer products.

Remember, when you remove that floor, then you become the new floor.

I think many unemployed americans would want to become the floor. Better than being unemployed.

Still, computers and robots don't buy stuff. You need people for that.

Yes, but its irrelevant whether its a lot of expensive stuff bought by few persons, or many persons buying cheap stuff. In fact, for a developed economy first option may be better because cheap stuff comes from import.

And we have not even touched indirect costs of illegal immigration such as increased crime and government expenditures etc..