Originally posted by Maslo


That does even not make any sense.

According to your logic, I can come to a foreign country with no papers, and there would be no way to distinguish me from actual citizens. Yeah, that would work great..

Of course, the Europeans did it. They came to America with no papers. Now they say "this is their land". And it is.

Magic.

It is really a matter of what you believe. If you believe this is your land. Then it is. If you believe you don't belong here, then you need papers.

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Originally posted by Maslo


That does even not make any sense.

According to your logic, I can come to a foreign country with no papers, and there would be no way to distinguish me from actual citizens. Yeah, that would work great..

Of course, the Europeans did it. They came to America with no papers. Now they say "this is their land". And it is.

Magic.

It is really a matter of what you believe. If you believe this is your land. Then it is. If you believe you don't belong here, then you need papers.

edit on 11-10-2011 by DRAZIW because: (no reason given)

No wonder you 315 posts, and only 98 stars.....

Originally posted by Maslo

But its not about you, of course you know. But how is the government supposed to know?

edit on 11/10/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

Why does the government need to know?

If you're in a socialist society, where the government hands out all the cookies, then it's important to know the identities of all the individuals--e.g. former Soviet Union-- who have the right to get those cookies.

But, if you're in a capitalist society, where the people have to "work" for cash, and use that cash to pay for the cookies, then the identities of the individuals don't matter, because there are no free cookies.

If a man doesn't work he can't buy cookies, so if he doesn't belong there, he leaves, since his real family is in another land, and that is his ultimate support network. There's no need for a law to push him out. His "hunger" will do it.

There's no need for border walls at all. Europe has torn down all their walls, from the old East-West Berlin wall, to the old Soviet Union wall, to the European Union removing all walls between nations. Walls are not needed.

So, why is America building walls, and writing silly draconian laws, at a time when the rest of the world is going the other way?

It suggests that Americans are not working.

Americans no longer want to work.

Americans want every thing to be free. So, they need walls to keep others from coming in and taking those free cookies also. Americans are annoyed that other people are walking the land and eating their cookies.

But, it's not their cookies. They haven't worked for it. They don't want to work for it. They just want somebody to blame.

So they write a law.

And they build a wall.

But that can't solve the problem. Because the Mexicans aren't the real problem. They are working for those cookies. However, they are an easy target, to deflect the blame, to be able to say its them and not me.

Originally posted by Destinyone

No wonder you 315 posts, and only 98 stars.....

I'm not writing for general approval.

And NO, as in NONE, ZIP, NADA, ZERO other countries require papers. Riiiiiight.

Here is what you need to work in MX

Another poster on Dave’s had this checklist:

1. A copy of every page (including covers) of your passport and tourist visa.

2. A copy of any marriage licenses or divorce decrees. (if applicable)

3. A letter to the local immigration office applying for the FM-3 (this is mysterious because each office has a different format and they give you no format as a guide). Plan on writing a letter, in Spanish, requesting the FM-3 to teach English. Call the local office and inquire as to whom the letter should be addressed. Part of the process will be having your letters rejected for improper format/information. When this happens, ask the immigration official to add the necessary information to the letter for one of you many return trips

4. Letters of reference from two Mexican citizens including a copy of their voter identification card. See comments in 3 above regarding the format of these letters.

5. A letter of moral support (apoyo moral) from a Mexican citizen with a copy of his or her voter ID card. (See comments in 3 above about the format of these letters)

6. A copy of the letter from the school offering employment along with a copy of the owners’ voter ID card and proof of his or her current payment of taxes.
Be careful because some owners balk at giving you this letter because they worry it may constitute an employment agreement you could use against them later. Nail this down with your school in advance. Coordinators play good guy/bad guy and may pretend they have to refer you to the school lawyer who may never meet with your or give you this letter. I have known teachers who were promised this letter but it never materialized leaving them stuck with immigration later.

7. A copy of 6 blank SAT payment forms. This is how government fees are collected. The forms are available at any stationary store (papeleria). Immigration will eventually fill these out and return them to you to pay at a bank. The annual FM-3 fee is about 1,700 pesos per year. Many good schools will pay this for you as a part of your offer.

8. Go to the local immigration office early (wait in line as early as 8 AM) and sign the register to wait your turn. Do not get angry or show annoyance if those later on the list get a hearing before you. It’s part of the system. Plan on waiting up to 4 hours on a busy day. You may have to return 6 to 8 times so patience is the key. Do not offer or pay a bribe for faster or more expedient service. Do not contribute to the corruption this way. BE PATIENT.

9. On the first visit, immigration should give you a copy of your application (good as your work visa for 30 days) and a letter to take to your local municipal (or state) government. Take this letter to the local government (try to get an address and directions from the immigration officer). You will fill out another form there and get a letter back in two or three days at most. Take this letter back to immigration. Try not to show your annoyance that the immigration department is thoroughly enjoying making you wait many hours and return many times – be polite and persistent. They have 30 days to process your application.

10. Ask for the SAT forms to be filled out by immigration so you can go to the bank and pay. You may not be able to get these forms filled out the same day but may be told to return mañana which does not mean tomorrow.

11. Take the SAT forms stamped paid by the bank back to immigrations and politely ask if there is anything else you need. Do not be surprised if you now need something else or if something you thought was OK now needs to be revised or needs to be an original copy. Keep your cool.

12. Eventually, after the game is played out, you will be told when to return to get your visa. If your application has expired, ask immigration to renew it for another 30 days while you wait for your visa.

13. Return to get your visa. Thank God and the immigration official you finally got it and relax for 11 months until you go through the process again. (I have actually seen grown men from other Latin countries kiss the official in joy and relief when they finally completed the process. I would not recommend this for an “extranjero” from an English speaking country)

However, this is primarily for a renewal of an FM3 from within Mexico. At the initial application, the rules state that you are also to provide:

•A valid passport
•A valid FMT (the Mexican tourist visa issued to you)
•A letter of invitation of employment from the sponsoring school
•A letter from you, in Spanish, outlining your desire to work in Mexico and your qualifications for the job
•Your university degree, apostilled (more on this down below), and relevant to the teaching position you are applying to
•University transcripts
•Proof of residence (not always, but sometimes they ask for a phone or light

Just one person's list. Here is China's

Employment Visa (Z Visa) is issued to an alien who comes to China for a post or employment, and his/her accompanying family members.

I.Please submit the following documents with your application:
1. A valid passport as well as a copy of its information page: Your valid passportmust have at least six (6) months of remaining validity with at least one blank visa page in it.
2. Application form: One completed Visa Application Form (Q1)
3. Photo: one recent photo of 2*2 square inch (black & white or color is acceptable) glued or stapled on the application form.
4.Temporary foreign visitors with a valid US visa or foreign residents with legitimate status in the US, may apply for Chinese visa to the Visa Office of the Chinese Embassy. The visa officer may ask the applicant to provide the original and photocopy of their US Green Card,Work Permit,I-20 Form, valid US Visa or other additional documents and make a decision on whether to issue the visa case by case.
5. First time applicants whose former nationality was Chinese, shall write down his Chinese name in the application form and submit his original Chinese passport and the photocopy of the information page of the passport. Applicant who was formerly Chinese and has acquired a new US passport, if there is a Chinese visa in the old passport, shall submit his old US passport or the photocopy of the Chinese visa.
6. A visa notification issued by the authorized Chinese unit.
7. An originial and a photocopy of the Work Permit for Aliens issued by the Chinese Labor Ministry or the original of Foreign Expert's License issued by the Chinese Foreign Expert Bureau.
8. A visa notification issued by the authorized Chinese unit or proof of kinship, e.g. marriage certificate, birth certificate, etc, is required for the accompanying family members.


Ⅱ.How to apply
1.You may submit the application to the Visa Office of the Embassy or Consulate -General which holds consular jurisdiction over the state where you reside;
2.If you cannot come in person, you may entrust someone else or a travel/visa agent to drop off your application at the visa office of the Embassy or Consulate -General which holds consular jurisdiction over the state where you reside.
▲No appointment is required.
▲Mailed applications are not acceptableand will be refused.


Ⅲ.Processing Time
1.The regular processing time is 4 working days.
2.Express service: 2-3 working days processing, $20 will be charged per visa.
3.Same day rush service: additional fees of $30 for 1 working day processing (applications presented before 12:30pm may be picked up between 2:30pm-3:00pm on the same day).

Ⅳ.Visa fees
1.Please pay by Visa, MasterCard, Money Order, Cashier's Check or Company Check. Cash or Personal checks are not acceptable.
2.Please make the company check, cashier's check or money order payable to Chinese Embassy.
3.Fees:$130 for American, and $30 for Citizens of other countries.

Ⅴ.Additional Information
1. If the visa application form is not filled out completely, correctly and legibly, this can cause a delay in processing or refusal of the requested visa.
2. ( Z ) visa is valid for one entry, three months. The holder of a (Z) visa shall go through residential formalities in the local public security department within thirty days of entry into China.
3. Visa Officers may require some other relevant documents.
4.Any person suffering from a mental disorder, leprosy, AIDS, venereal diseases, contagious tuberculosis or other such infectious diseases shall not be permitted to enter China.

All regulations are subject to change without notice.

Originally posted by Gridrebel
Here is what you need to work in MX

Another poster on Dave’s had this checklist:

Very nice. So, how does an illiterate person fill out all these forms, and meet all these requirements?

Some people just can't think.

There are two worlds out there. One is reality. The other is a fantasy land that's really a playground for lawyers to practice their art.

You don't EVEN want to try getting a job in Slovakia!

So you are saying ingnorance is cause to ignore a law. Are you calling anyone but a USA citizen stupid???? Talk to any Mexican, Russian, Korean and they all KNOW there are rules to reside in another country. These rules are written in their own language. All the foreigners I know, know how to read.

AAANNNNNDDDDD. Why don't you ask THOSE countries???? It's THEIR requirement. Last time I checked, and I looked hard, there were ZERO internet blogs or web sites where Mexicans were outraged because of illegal immigrants living in their country. Same with Russia, China and Slovakia. Yeah, those are the only ones I know how to spell.

In any case, Alabama's laws are working and I commend them!
All States need to enforce their immigration laws and a lot of problems will be solved.

Originally posted by Gridrebel
So you are saying ingnorance is cause to ignore a law. Are you calling anyoone but a USA citizen stupid???? Talk to any Mexican, Russian, Korean and they all KNOW there are rules to reside in another country. These rules are written in their own language. All the foreigners I know, know how to read.

Do you know it is illegal to walk across the street at points other than the corner or the designated marked "zebra crossing"?

Friend of mine got a ticket in New York city for jaywalking this way. He didn't know there was such a law. I lived in New York for almost a decade, I knew that law, but I never got a ticket. He was just visiting one weekend, and he gets a ticket. What kind of luck is that?

Although the law says you can't cross the street at just about any point you'd like, people do it all the time. Most people refuse to take the time to go to the designated spots to cross, it's out of their way.

Most of the time the cops don't bother to give tickets. They just ignore the violations. However, there's a principle in law that says if a law is not enforced periodically, it ceases to be law. So, every now and then the police designate a few days when all they do is give tickets to jaywalkers, to maintain the laws on the books. Then, they go back to ignoring the violators for the rest of the year.

My friend had the misfortune to visit on the day the jaywalker drive was on.

The cops play this same game with drunk driving. Every holiday, they go out, and set up checkpoints to try to catch drivers who drink. Then, they go back to their other regular activities.

If you know the days on which certain laws will be enforced, and which days they will not, you can walk the land a free man.

Blast the USA for enforcing it's laws. Don't you dare address other coutries enforcing their own laws. Pretty lame. Of course some laws are ridiculous. Last time I checked, murder was illegal every country. All the citizens know it. So is residing there illegally. All the citizens know it. Basic and simple. Doesn't take a rocket scientist. GOOOOO Alabama.

Mexico's education system is very much like ours except in Mexico a centralized curriculum decisions are being made at the federal level through the Secretariat of Public Education (Spanish: Secretaría de Educación Pública or SEP). Educational standards are set by this Ministry at all levels except in autonomous universities chartered by the government (e.g. UNAM). Accreditation of private schools is accomplished by a mandatory approval and registration with this institution.

Education in the People's Republic of China is a state-run system of public education run by the Ministry of Education. All citizens must attend school for at least nine years

Russia's educational system has produced nearly 100% literacy

Slovakia - Citizens have the right to free education in primary and secondary schools and, based on their abilities and society's resources, also in higher educational establishments, such as colleges and universities

Ohh, and your friend thought jaywalking was legal??? In New Nork?????

Originally posted by Gridrebel

Ohh, and your friend thought jaywalking was legal??? In New Nork?????

edit on 11-10-2011 by Gridrebel because: fix my error

He'd never heard of jaywalking. The ticket was his education.

Another time, a girl from Minnesota who was attending the same college in NY like me, walked right out in the middle of the street, and got knocked down by an approaching van. Since I saw the whole thing, I was required to give testimony to the court. The van could not see her because she walked out from behind another vehicle By the time the driver noticed her she was right in front of him, and he could not avoid hitting her. When I saw her making her steps, I thought she was mad. Totally unaware of all around her, she walked like a person with no cares in the world, oblivious to traffic. I figured she'd probably come from some small town in mid-america and didn't have the concept of jaywalking either. Unfortunately, for her, she didn't only get a ticket, she was hospitalized. So it goes...

Americans don't know their own laws...it's the truth. They are all swayed this way and that by the emotional propaganda in the news...like our good friend Lou Dobbs.


If Americans don't follow their own laws, how can they expect the foreigners to follow them? If Americans won't cross the street at the designated spots, why should the Mexicans cross the border at the immigration gates?

It's all law.

Stop bitching about the illegals if you're doing illegal yourself.

"If Americans don't follow their own laws, how can they expect the foreigners to follow them?"

Lame. I'm going to use that excuse next time I go to Tiajuana, Beijing, Moscow and Bratislava and the next time I get pulled over for drunk driving

My mom was Sioux/Heinz 57, My dad and grandparents German. Me - Heinz 57. Born, raised and still living in the USA

So people in the USA in support of illegal immigrants having the same rights as it’s citizens are basically saying that the USA should be the ONLY country in the world that has no illegal immigrant laws.

Originally posted by Gridrebel

So people in the USA in support of illegal immigrants having the same rights as it’s citizens are basically saying that the USA should be the ONLY country in the world that has no illegal immigrant laws.

The "People" in the US have an unique constitution.

It says "We The People..."
Not "We The Citizens.."

The Citizens are that portion of the People who are allowed to "vote". The non-voting remainder are the rest of the "People".

Everyone standing on US soil is one of the "People".

No distinction is made between documented and undocumented People, they are all the People.

The People have all the rights of the land, except the right to vote or hold certain high offices, like President, etc..which is reserved for the Citizens.

The smart founding fathers wanted a land of FREEDOM, for themselves and their posterity.

They understood, that you couldn't have freedom if you tried to "restrict" the basic laws to "some" of the people.

That's because one would then have to identify which of the people are entitled and which are not, and that means an ID system and checking everyone as they move along the road. This then reduces the freedom of the very people who are trying to live free.

So the laws of the land are for all of the "People" who are there.

That meant there had to be a policy of wet foot dry foot, which meant as soon as you set foot on dry land anywhere in the US you are now one of "The People" and entitled to all of the rights of the people of the land. But, if you're found approaching the border from outside, like swimming ashore, then you're wet foot and not yet one of the people, and so not entitled to the rights and privileges of the dry foot folk.

All of the undocumented are part of "The People."

The states are trying to change that. To undo the founding fathers supreme law of the land. Because they don't understand the principle behind the writing of the US Constitution.