Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

reply to post by Redux

From the video, it said that Deborah called the police back to take fingerprints from cigarette butts that were near a car that had been broken into.

There's another link and written info - if I see it again I'll list it. Stated she saved the butts - the time difference is like a month from when the vehicle was broken into and when she called the police back to get them.

Beyond that it's good to hear the police are still looking - and the community search yesterday. Very cool that.

I'll post more about that later...

peace

From ‘mother hen’ to media villain: The life of Debbie Bradley

He can’t sleep. He has trouble focusing his thoughts or quieting roiling emotions after each news story about his missing granddaughter.

And baby Lisa Irwin’s first birthday looms five days away.

“That’s gonna be the oh-my-God moment,” said David Netz Jr., weeping. “I can’t even imagine what that day will be like. What will we do? How will we get through that?

Shouldn't the question be how is LISA going to get 'through' that day?

“Most of my family says, ‘Trust nobody.’ But it’s making things get even worse, I think,” Netz says. So he and a couple other members of the extended family are speaking out, helping The Kansas City Star pull together some of the threads of Deborah Lee Netz Bradley’s life of 25 years.

GREAT NEWS!!! Let's see some results. So far it's just a lot a talk about them and little talk about Lisa. BUt we'll see. I hope.

“My God, Debbie and Jeremy can’t even relax and smoke on the back porch without seeing hidden cameras popping out of brush. It’s horrible.”

Sweet Jesus can't ANYONE in that family stop complaining about how hard life is for THEM and start focusing on LISA???

Take the time the family dog bit Lisa’s older half-brother in the face. Netz scooped up the bloody toddler and ran across the street to where Debbie was. “She started screaming, and we rushed (him) to the hospital.”

That’s why Netz discounts the theory that she would try to hide an accidental or negligent death of Lisa.

“She would have picked that baby up and run up and down the street screaming for help,” he said of his daughter.

“No, she didn’t do this. She’s not hiding anything. She’s told the whole world about her drinking.

But she's not saying anything either. But we'll keep in hopes the Grandfather is right.

There's a whole lot more to this article (like how pretty Deborah looked in her prom dress) (of all freakin' things) and how she and Sean got caught doing the 'naughty' and kicked out of their parents home, but I can assure you there is VERY LITTLE about Lisa - in the whole write up.

The Uncle (at least) is kind enough and caring enough to put the pity party on hold for a moment and say:

“Look, I hope they find baby Lisa with a clean diaper and a full tummy, but with my family, it’ll probably end worse.”

Too bad he couldn't have left off the last part of the sentence.

Baby Lisa is out there, somewhere, Netz says. “She was absolutely beautiful, and she was always cooing and laughing and chewing on her hand. I used to tease Debbie and say, ‘That kid is just hungry. Give her a pork chop, will ya?’ ”

Even Grandpa can't talk about Lisa without using the past tense.

So we'll have to hope and pray double time... Just us 'strangers'...

peace

reply to post by silo13


Silo, I don't want to turn this into an argument again, but rather how I read the article in my own way rather than fighting about it (let's agree on at least this ok?) I am not attacking your POV or stating it's wrong. Just want to put out my POV as well.

Everyone (including myself) has been bugging and bugging for more information on Deborah and her past and now we have at least something but people are now getting hung up on the wording and how 'it's all about Deborah..what about the baby" This article was meant specifically to talk about Deborah. This will sound terrible...but there is no other information to give about the baby really at this point. Noone has information, so what more can we say? I'm sure the family is discussing the baby all the time but all we get to see is the edited version of the article as per the reporter. They obviously wanted an article about Deborah so are only focusing on the information about her.

Also, we've read a million articles on how terrible of a mother she was or could have been or what her past has been like and noone has said 'what about Lisa??"...they've just taken the "bad" information and run with it concocting their own theories and scenarios. But the minute we hear some good things we don't want to take them for face value...that's who she is...or was.

The family is finally speaking and now everyone is tearing apart their words. This is exactly what I knew would happen unfortunately. It's no wonder none of them want to speak to the media. Their interviews are edited by someone they have no control over and then put out to us, the general public the way the reporter or the media in general sees fit. We do not get to see the whole interview or ask our own questions. We don't even know what the exact questions were asked.

For example the paragraph by the grandfather about "how will we get through this..." the reporter may have asked him pointedly "on Lisa's 1st bday if she's not home, how will you help the parents deal with that?" That doesn't really lend to talking about Lisa in that case, rather themselves as the family. Or perhaps he did say many many things about how Lisa will get through it, but it's not sensational enough to include in the article. The blurb on the parents relaxing....the reporter may have specifically asked how the media intrusion is affecting them. This poor family will never have peace because no matter what they say it will get skewed and misconstrued.

I personally really liked this article for the background it brought as to who this family is. That the ex husband and ex mother in law have only good things to say about her, shows me that regardless of how dysfunctional these families may or may not be...they are caring individuals. Both the ex and the mother in law could've used this opportunity to RAKE Deborah over the coals and they didn't. My kudos go out to them for being honest and sincere.

Again, I'm NOT attacking you or saying your POV is wrong...this article is being posted in a few of the forums I keep tabs on in terms of this case and many many people share your thoughts.

Let's hope Lisa is home before that all important 1st birthday

Michelle

Well I guess this puts to rest questions about who exactly Mike Thompson ID'd in the photo lineup police showed to him.

Lisa Irwin case: Witness picked man out of photo lineup that resembles neighbor

Kansas City, Mo. - One of the witnesses who spotted a man carrying a baby at about 4:00 a.m. the same night 11-month-old Lisa Irwin vanished, identified a man in a photo lineup that fits the description of a neighbor of the Irwin family, according to a Fox News report. On Judge Jeanine Pirro's Fox show Saturday, she reported that the neighbor in question has an alibi for the night Baby Lisa disappeared and has also passed a polygraph examination. The neighbor is presumably the husband of Samantha Brando – the woman who was drinking and smoking with Baby Lisa's mother the night the girl went missing – told him he was the subject of the investigation for some time.

As he, and Judge Jeanine Pirro state, he's been cleared and passed a polygraph....so I guess that's it then? But interesting he was the person picked out by motorcycle guy especially since his face hasn't even been all over the media, so it wasn't a case of identifying someone that looked familiar from the news. I am trying to find the video or transcript of Judge Jeanine's show from yesterday and add it here as well.

Michelle

Originally posted by schmae
Is the FBI involved or not? I thought I heard that for sure a couple weeks back, but maybe I was mistaken. If so, then the KCPD and their job performance is no longer an issue , right?

I'm sorry but how would KCPD no longer be an issue?
Yes the FBI is involved, in a support role ~ if needed, and as requested by KCPD.
It is not like the FBI swooped in and took over the case...

I'm kind of curious, if we apply these **scientific tools** to the KCPD, what would they tell us about the KCPD? If we assume that little Lisa is still alive, I believe the longer her whereabouts remains unknown the more likely harm will befall her....

reply to post by Michelle129th

Thanks for sharing your POV and for presenting it eloquently and succinctly and without rancor.

And yes, we'll have to disagree.

If the parents had not stopped talking to the police 4 days after Lisa's disappearance - but continued to talk to 'big' media - I might have another option of this article.

If these ‘family members’ would for a moment stop talking about all 'their' pains - and focus on Lisa‘s pains? I might have different opinion of the article.

If the parents were 'out there' pounding the pavement? - I very well could have a different opinion of the article.

But my POV? This article makes me want to retch. To read about the mother's prom dress and getting her hair brushed when we don't even know at this point if LISA WILL EVER EVEN GO TO A PROM?

Not only is that obscene but... Well, you get the idea, lol.

Beyond that? What redeeming qualities are there in the article?

We know Deborah wore a nice dress. She got caught playing nookie in someone else's house.... Oh, and that the family thinks Lisa is dead and can‘t talk about her without using the past tense.

Think about it. Can you even imagine, for one minute, just one minute how LISA will feel when she reads this article when she gets to be oh - let's say 16, 18 years old?

Do I understand your point. You bet. Do I think this article and everything in it is disgusting beyond belief? You bet.

Originally posted by Michelle129th
Well I guess this puts to rest questions about who exactly Mike Thompson ID'd in the photo lineup police showed to him.

As he, and Judge Jeanine Pirro state, he's been cleared and passed a polygraph....so I guess that's it then? But interesting he was the person picked out by motorcycle guy especially since his face hasn't even been all over the media, so it wasn't a case of identifying someone that looked familiar from the news. I am trying to find the video or transcript of Judge Jeanine's show from yesterday and add it here as well.

Michelle

Curious, you are aware that James Brando is alledged to be the father of a baby, just about Lisa age? Just perhaps, what was reported some time ago, was NOT a case of copy and paste error, but the truth?

I know I said I wouldn't be back.. but ..I decided to drop in again..after reading some great posts, and of course more of the same character assignation. So those of you who don't like me here.. will just have to put up with it.

Quote by Silo

Sweet Jesus can't ANYONE in that family stop complaining about how hard life is for THEM and start focusing on LISA???

yes.."sweet Jesus" would just love how everyone is trying to dig up the worst about them, twisting their words to mean what they want, and generally deciding who is guilty and how, before ALL the facts are made known.. Jesus must be so proud of how people are treating a family, that could actually be innocent.

Quote by Michelle129th

I personally really liked this article for the background it brought as to who this family is. That the ex husband and ex mother in law have only good things to say about her, shows me that regardless of how dysfunctional these families may or may not be...they are caring individuals. Both the ex and the mother in law could've used this opportunity to RAKE Deborah over the coals and they didn't. My kudos go out to them for being honest and sincere.

That is an interesting fact...you would think if anyone had reason to trash someone and rake Debbie over the coals it would be the ex and his family.

Also, we've read a million articles on how terrible of a mother she was or could have been or what her past has been like and noone has said 'what about Lisa??"...they've just taken the "bad" information and run with it concocting their own theories and scenarios. But the minute we hear some good things we don't want to take them for face value...that's who she is...or was.

Another good point... Funny how people think that by vilifying Debbie, they are helping find Lisa..I see no logic in that.

The family is finally speaking and now everyone is tearing apart their words. This is exactly what I knew would happen unfortunately. It's no wonder none of them want to speak to the media. Their interviews are edited by someone they have no control over and then put out to us, the general public the way the reporter or the media in general sees fit. We do not get to see the whole interview or ask our own questions. We don't even know what the exact questions were asked.

How true, and I imagine it must be upsetting. I suspect police lied to them as well, when they were being interviewed separately at first..using he said ..she said scenario with both of them. This is why I think once they found out what was said to each of them, that they decided they would not be interviewed unless together. Would like to add here that it would be pretty difficult to go looking for your baby , with 50 cameras following your every move, and other people tagging along just to call you "baby killer'.

But of course there are those who only see guilt in everything they say and do. After all parents who have just lost a child , should be together enough to go traipsing through every little nook and cranny of the neighborhood, with a mob of people following them. ..I mean who cares that their lives have been shattered, they need to get out there and submit themselves to even more hatred and gawking,and speculation.

..and for those of you who say with such self righteousness"I don't care what anyone said or did..I would be out there searching for my baby night and day"...I say to you ..you really don't know. You don't know how it would feel to have police question and accuse you..even lie to you the very first day of questioning.. You have no idea what it is like to be mobbed by cameras and the curious, as well as the haters. You have no idea what friends have searched..and what police even allowed to be searched. I know I would be weak in the knees,and my heart racing a mile a minute if I was out hunting for my child, that if by some luck of fortune I did find that child..it would most likely be dead.

Let's hope baby Lisa is found alive.. and returned to her family. If that is the case..I still fear for the family because there are many who would continue to chastise Debbie, and start campaigning for her children to be taken away.

If somehow baby Lisa is no longer with us.. I'm sure she is in a place of love, and would feel sorrow at seeing her family being vilified to this extent. Even if her mother is guilty of manslaughter through an accident, or neglect..I just can't picture her in heaven beside Jesus , saying "I need justice.. please make life a living hell for my mom and dad and my two brothers.."..and "my mom is a worthless scum, cause she over medicated me by accident" That's only if debbie is guilty ... I can well imagine what she would be feeling knowing her mother is innocent.

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by Michelle129th

 

Thanks for sharing your POV and for presenting it eloquently and succinctly and without rancor.

And yes, we'll have to disagree.

If the parents had not stopped talking to the police 4 days after Lisa's disappearance - but continued to talk to 'big' media - I might have another option of this article.

If the KCPD, hadn't accused Deborah of killing her child, within the first hour, of adopting the easiest course and ASSUMING the parents did it perhaps we would also have a different outcome?

If these ‘family members’ would for a moment stop talking about all 'their' pains - and focus on Lisa‘s pains? I might have different opinion of the article.

Yes then they could be vilified, for being too uncaring, too cold.

If the parents were 'out there' pounding the pavement? - I very well could have a different opinion of the article.

Yes, then the parents could be arrested at least for interfering in a police investigation. For acting like police...

Oh, and that the family thinks Lisa is dead and can‘t talk about her without using the past tense.

Just whom are the experts here? The KCPD, and within the FIRST HOUR the KCPD is telling you that your baby is DEAD! And that you did it. All that has gone down in the last month, the searches in the sewers, the landfills, the pools, can we be honest enough to acknowledge that KCPD is NOT searching for a live baby, in these locations?

And if Deborah expressed hope? Then we could question if Deborah isn't delusional, when one knows that Deborah did it, all her actions can always be vilified, it is easy to find fault in another. When that is what one seeks.

Think about it. Can you even imagine, for one minute, just one minute how LISA will feel when she reads this article when she gets to be oh - let's say 16, 18 years old?

Good suggestion! How do you think she will feel about those who vilified her parents? Who vilified her family? The police who couldn't find her body in a landfill, a sewer, a pond, a cistern, or in the garden outback. How do you think she'll feel about the police that vilified her parents?

Do I understand your point. You bet. Do I think this article and everything in it is disgusting beyond belief? You bet.

And then there is that happy face....
Will the world end on 11/11/11, or perhaps on 12/12?
Is there NOT enough hate in the world?
Why the rush to judgement?
What does the world gain by the rush to condemn Deborah and Jeremy? Would Lisa truly rejoice to know that she is being used to justify hate, to vilify her family? Today? Right at this moment in time? Or would little Lisa prefer that we learn from her? Or is this, simply a poor attempt at acknowledging that the KCPD has issues, did not act in a proffesional way, and may never know what actually happen to poor little Lisa?

Originally posted by Dav1d

Originally posted by Michelle129th
Well I guess this puts to rest questions about who exactly Mike Thompson ID'd in the photo lineup police showed to him.

As he, and Judge Jeanine Pirro state, he's been cleared and passed a polygraph....so I guess that's it then? But interesting he was the person picked out by motorcycle guy especially since his face hasn't even been all over the media, so it wasn't a case of identifying someone that looked familiar from the news. I am trying to find the video or transcript of Judge Jeanine's show from yesterday and add it here as well.

Michelle

Curious, you are aware that James Brando is alledged to be the father of a baby, just about Lisa age? Just perhaps, what was reported some time ago, was NOT a case of copy and paste error, but the truth?

David, welcome back...we missed you and your different insight into this case!

I had posted a while back in the thread about there being a baby in the brando family as per seeing a "congrats" post on James' facebook page. I tried to research that with no avail so didn't bother much about it. But yes, back in Dec 2009 (i'm assuming) Samantha was at the very least expecting a baby (or thought she was). I wondered what happened with that baby...that would/should be a bit older than Lisa now. Given the Dec congrats I guessed it to be approx a summer birth. Although it could be as late as October 2010 (a month before Lisa) and as early as...well Dec. 2009 if they hadn't told anyone until very late in the pregnancy.

I don't want to pry into people's personal lives...but since they are involved in this case at least somewhat I have to wonder what scenarios, if any, this could now open suspicions to....

Michelle

An interesting fact I actually meant to post about yesterday is that the "new timeline" given to police by a supposed family source has been questioned by at least one media source, Jim Spellman of CNN.

I'm know I keep referring back to this guy but I feel he's been one of the only unbiased media sources I've been able to find that is deeply involved in the case. He has posed questions both for and against the parents being involved. If I had to make an educated, reading between the lines, guess he probably leans a bit more towards the parents being guilty side, but at least he hasn't fully hopped the fence yet and is trying to remain open minded. He is in Kansas City and has been for quite some time...following leads and interviewing people involved. He also takes a lot of time out of his day to respond to the public's tweets on twitter asking him different questions.

Anyhow, this is two of his tweets from Nov. 5th re: "unnamed source"

DB's bro saying she was drunk came from an unnamed source that gave reporters info the other day....

...so i dont know how DBs bro got the onfo. Frankly the source is not a person I have a lot of faith in

Also, when asked by another reporter, Cheryl Lasseter from WLBT news the following question:
From CL:

Jim Spellman, is it your understanding that Phil Netz slept at Irwin home the nite Lisa disappeared?

From JA:

Cheryl Lasseter, no. I think this is a misinterpretation of info from an unnamed source that provided a "new" timeline to press the other day

So I don't know if that new timeline has much credibility in this case IMO.

Michelle

Just what does ACTIVELY SEARCHING actually mean? Is it more than smoke and mirrors, meant to create illusion, in this case? 

"The last sighting was at 48th Street and Parvin (Road), right down the road," said search organizer Edith Fine-Duskin. "They were walking this way."

Read more: www.kmbc.com...

 
This is in my opinion an example of actively searching (people on the ground looking), a search by the way that was NOT sanctioned by the KCPD.... It would seem the locals are starting to feel the KCPD, are NOT doing enough in this case. A case in which the KCPD requested that locals NOT get out and search, for fears they might contaminate their crime scene.



  ACTIVELY SEARCHING   

I am a late-comer to this case due to not owning a television set. So, am just now reading this thread and got to page 4 and skipped to the end.
So perhaps somewhere between the 80 some odds pages this was addressed but for my own sanity (don't feel like reading people's snide comments to one another) can some bring me up to speed on this: It was mentioned that Lisa's father didn't even know she existed. Is that right?

And then I read that he was spoken to thereby subsequently identified in the article as being Mr Irwin.


The only way a child from an unwed couple can take on the 'fathers' sir-name is for the 'father' to legally adopt them by signing the birth certificate.
A mother can't arbitrarily take any last name she wants and attach it to her child. Someone with that last name has to give written permission (acknowledgment to the birth)

So that doesn't make sense.


Can someone bring me up to date on what's going on with this case please?

Not knowing anything (other than the first 3-4 pages in this thread) about this case.......it's my belief the 'adults' are absolutely culpable in this case. Call it Human_Alien intuition.

Originally posted by Dav1d


Will the world end on 11/11/11, or perhaps on 12/12?
Is there NOT enough hate in the world?

That's hateful? I see that as a blessing!

Why the rush to judgement?

I never understood when an opinion becomes a judgment? I guess it depends on the argument and who wants to hurl it back at ya!


How is one supposed to approach these cases? Or...ANY case for that matter? It's called honing in on a person of interest. Or a suspect.
Do you think a detective goes into a case thinking 'oh nothing happened here. She must've spontaneously combusted?'

No!!

Someone (some person. Or maybe a robot. Who knows) took this child. That's a given. So the police scope out the joint and peruse the peeps. And usually, the last people with the child-victim are USUALLY the perps.



From my prospective (having just learned about this case today, Sunday Nov 6th) by reading the first few pages of this thread?......I can TELL you the adults are somehow involved in this.

Is that judgment?
Nah.
It's a hunch.

Originally posted by Michelle129th

David, welcome back...we missed you and your different insight into this case!

Why thank you for the kind words...
So try this on for a different insight.

Scenario 1

Samantha is pregnant back in Dec of 2009, it's also Christmas time, a time of good cheer and parting. Perhaps Samantha and Deborah were drinking then as now? Perhaps this caused Samatha to loose her child?

Scenario 2
Samantha is pregnant back in Dec of 2009, perhaps by then showing and very obvious. It's also Christmas time, a time of good cheer and parting. Perhaps because of the pregnancy Samantha feels she can't drink, can't party? This could result in Deborah and James perhaps spending a LOT of time together, parting... Add to that mix Jeremy could have spent a sigificant amount of time, working overtime trying to keep the family a float... We know that Samantha and James are unhappy, and thinking of divorce. Could Samantha blame Deborah for her troubles with her husband?

1) Could either of these combination of facts, cause Samantha to feel resentment towards Deborah?

2) Is it within the realm of possible that Samantha's 4 year old who was inside the home, opened a door in the back of the house? Allowing person "X" to enter the home, and take Lisa? For that matter what real proof do we have that the back door was actually locked? Could that this person have left in this same way, (setting the door to lock, on the way out?)? But needs/wanted to cover this fact up? And so at a later time snuck back, or even had a friend, (Samantha?) pry the window loose in the front of the house, to create the illusion this was how entry was gain? For that matter, perhaps the front window is nothing more than coincidence? Something that simply wasn't noticed until someone has reason to go looking?

3) Could this explain why the dogs never barked?

4) Could the baby have been given something to help it sleep, to keep it quiet? Before it was taken?

5) It's assumed that Jeremy is the father, but legially that is not what would be assumed. Other than they are living together, and apparently Deborah named Jeremy as the father, is there actually in proof of this assumption? Or is it a case of picking and choosing what to believe, to support our outlook?

reply to post by Human_Alien

It was mentioned that Lisa's father didn't even know she existed. Is that right?

I read this update, I believe the link is posted here.

I got confused at first also - you brought up some great info but let me go back first.

The article as I read it stated Deborah's legal HUSBAND - his name is Sean - did not know of Lisa's birth. (He purportedly has not talked to Deborah for two years, or seen his son that's living with Deborah).

Lisa is reported as being the daughter of the man Deborah, Lisa's mother, is currently living with, that's Mr. Irwin. How do we know that? Deborah said so. (Risky that). There's been no confirmation of DNA, etc.

Now to the part you brought up - Kudos on that.

If Lisa's biological parents are not married - why does Lisa carry the Irwin name?
Is that legal - as you said, to just post any ol name you want on your babies birth certificate?
Did Irwin adopt her? Have a blood test? Whatever?

Interesting question that. I like it!

Welcome to the thread - you've already got my head spinning - in a good way!

peace

Originally posted by Human_Alien


I never understood when an opinion becomes a judgment? I guess it depends on the argument and who wants to hurl it back at ya!

Many who understand would agree that an opinion becomes a judgement when it is used to condemn, another person?

How is one supposed to approach these cases? Or...ANY case for that matter? It's called honing in on a person of interest. Or a suspect.

In my country we are supposed to be assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. At one point that was more than just rhetoric. Until one has proof, that a mother hurt her child, one treats them with courtesy and tact. And yes, proof is more that in the last X number of cases it was the mother....

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by Redux

 

From the video, it said that Deborah called the police back to take fingerprints from cigarette butts that were near a car that had been broken into.

There's another link and written info - if I see it again I'll list it. Stated she saved the butts - the time difference is like a month from when the vehicle was broken into and when she called the police back to get them.

Okay, thanks. If you say it was on an earlier post, I believe ya. I guess I just wanted you to reiterate that that was what you had seen somewhere.

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by Human_Alien

 

It was mentioned that Lisa's father didn't even know she existed. Is that right?

I read this update, I believe the link is posted here.

I got confused at first also - you brought up some great info but let me go back first.

The article as I read it stated Deborah's legal HUSBAND - his name is Sean - did not know of Lisa's birth. (He purportedly has not talked to Deborah for two years, or seen his son that's living with Deborah).

Lisa is reported as being the daughter of the man Deborah, Lisa's mother, is currently living with, that's Mr. Irwin. How do we know that? Deborah said so. (Risky that). There's been no confirmation of DNA, etc.

Now to the part you brought up - Kudos on that.

If Lisa's biological parents are not married - why does Lisa carry the Irwin name?
Is that legal - as you said, to just post any ol name you want on your babies birth certificate?
Did Irwin adopt her? Have a blood test? Whatever?

Interesting question that. I like it!

Welcome to the thread - you've already got my head spinning - in a good way!

peace

edit on 6-11-2011 by silo13 because: cause I wanted to.. oh, and bbc

Believe it or not, the name can be anything the mother wants when she fills out the form at the hospital. (Except for maybe numbers and symbols). So when Lisa was born, if Mr. Irwin was listed as the bio-dad, his surname is acceptable legally. I think the rule is, the surname has to belong to either the mom or dad listed on the birth certificate.

OiO