Knowingly Creating Me, is knowingly creating my path to failure.. No?

True Followers of the Bible, Please reply.

The begining of the thread, a simple bible verse.

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Followed up with a previous thread that i posted, which will be pretty much the same topic as this one.
God set me up? Feels that way.

I want to keep this simple.
It really really really feels logical, however it feels like people well...
Let me just get to it.

So this being known as "God" under the bibles verse is the bearer of all knowledge. "God" is the future the past and present. "God" knew creating me would lead me to make my choices. As in, "God" knew that forming me into what he sees as "Me" would lead "Me" to make my "Choices" to eventually go to hell for being a sinner.

Do you see my point?
Having knowledge of my creation means having knowledge of my decisions. Knowledge of my life and knowledge of my.. Afterlife.

So i want to see the jusitice in that.

The only argument i keep getting is that, it's my choice.
And i don't understand how my counter argument, whereas my creation wasn't my chioce, and neither is how i was created, valid!

My hair is falling out over this!

Give me your thoughts, i have yet to find someone to even agree with this. I just don't understand how this logic, wheather it's believed by the other person, is not understandable!!

I hope ats, you don't fail me again. :

reply to post by Anttyk47


I can understand your predicament, my friend. There are a lot of unanswered questions out there pertaining to the spiritual side of life. I believe in Christ, and that He is my Lord and savior. I think the reason for our creation is not for ultimate destruction, but for fellowship with Him. Im not going to give a lot of scripture to back up what I say, even though I can. I can just say that you have a choice, my friend, in the matter. If God did not give us free will, then we would just be a slave to him. Since he has given us the GIFT of free will, the choice you make is up to you.

Doesn't matter. Fact is you're here, and need to make a choice.

Originally posted by graphuto
Doesn't matter. Fact is you're here, and need to make a choice.

How doesn't it matter?
Do i just make my choice over nothing? I mean how can i make a choice without debating certain things?...

I could just disregard certain things to make a "Easy choice" but sorry i just don't roll that way.

reply to post by Veritas1


My point and logic in this thread is that the "Gift" of free will was no gift at all. For me, the gift of free will was forced down my throat and created "Me"
My choice is given by the fact that there was previous knowledge of my future choice.

Whatever i decide, has been decided by giving me free will, and giving my ability to chose.

Do you not, for the most part, enjoy the experience of life? Do you want to die? If you answered yes, then no, then there you go. Just because He knows what choice you're going to make doesn't mean that you don't have to MAKE that choice. You can choose to go with God, or you can choose to tell him to take a hike.

reply to post by Anttyk47
Why is your hair falling out over this? What choice do you NOT have to make for yourself?

Let's say I'm sitting in a high tower, and I can see a blind person stumbling towards the busy highway. I know in advance what's going to happen next. Or say I know someone so well that I can tell you what their choice on pretty much any option is going to be. Does my having knowledge or perspective to see their future or know their decisions mean they were any less free to make them?

What choices in your life do you not have an option about? God makes you do everything somehow, only making you THINK you decided for yourself? Come on, now.

I definitely understand your view on this - my friend Chris used to share it and we would debate on it often. But I can never get over how silly I find it. Yes, perspective and knowledge of us and his creation allow God to know how things are going to end up. But we still choose the path to end up there.

I think the main problem lies in us thinking WE somehow know how we'll end up, and so God forced it on us. But we don't - we can go either way, and the choice is ours.

As far as hell goes, this is one of my common gripes. Do some reading even of just the big, popular bible verses for me, and let me know where we're taught that those who do not accept the gift (the "unsaved" or damned, I suppose) have eternal life. Everywhere I read, aside from one misinterpreted parable taken out of context, teaches that the gift of god is eternal life, whereas the wages of sin is *death*.

Or that we shouldn't fear those who can only harm the body, but we should respect and fear God who can *destroy* both body and soul in hell.

Or that God so loved the world that he gave his son so that we might not *perish*, but have *everlasting life*.

Yes...there is a pattern developing here. Eternal torment is a non-biblical innovation used as a scare tactic, unwisely. The unsaved don't have access to the tree of life, so they go to the *second death* after we're all judged, according to the bible - not the first "eternal torment in unending agony".

Be well, friend. I'm not saying any of this unkindly, and I hope it helps set your mind at ease.

reply to post by graphuto


I understand i have that choice.
I can sit here and make my choice to do anything that i want.
Whatever it is.

But how does "God" justify (for example, me) me making these choices, if before i was created he knew i'd make them.
I can chose to go with "God" or not, however the point is in the end whatever my choice is, he already knew i'd make it. Therefore it was never my choice at all.
My begining didnt start with me, it started with him.

Because YOU actually MADE the CHOICES! That's how he justifies it!

reply to post by Praetorius


I guess you bring something up that i wanted, and didnt see.

Since i have yet to read a bible, and have only gotten my information from a few verses, and only from many discussions from followers, this was a good view for me.

I've had only a few people mention that "Hell" doesn't really exsist.
I really should read a bible.
But this is still a debate that can be discussed, i want to see other's peoples views on this.

reply to post by Anttyk47


there is a lot of interesting information in the bible. Most people reject it as myth, fairy tales, and such, but it tells us alot about our origins. After that, I suggest reading the book of Enoch and the Lost Books of the Bible. I wish everyone would stop and read the bible for themselves instead of making pretentious remarks about it before actually knowing what it say. I wish you peace and hope, and may God bless you and guide you on your journey my friend

Originally posted by Anttyk47
reply to post by Praetorius

 

I guess you bring something up that i wanted, and didnt see.

Since i have yet to read a bible, and have only gotten my information from a few verses, and only from many discussions from followers, this was a good view for me.

I've had only a few people mention that "Hell" doesn't really exsist.
I really should read a bible.
But this is still a debate that can be discussed, i want to see other's peoples views on this.

Well, I'm glad if I was able to help somewhat. I'd definitely recommend doing some bible reading of your own for better perspective and knowledge, and if you get to anything tricky, just reach out for clarity or check various commentaries.

As far as hell - to clarify, it DOES exist, but it's prepared primarily for the devil and those angels that followed him, as well as the final death of those who don't accept eternal life. But only him and those angels will suffer in it eternally, as they were created immortal...we weren't.

No people are burning in it now, the dead await resurrection and the day of judgement - and even that is up for more interpretation, which we can discuss if you'd like (a good deal of this is not as cut-and-dried as usually taught).

Anyhow, we'll see what others can offer up for you to think about so you can get some other views as needed...and when you get into your bible reading, I highly recommend Matthew chapter 5 to see what christians are supposed to be...and sadly, often aren't.

Good night.

Originally posted by Anttyk47

Originally posted by graphuto
Doesn't matter. Fact is you're here, and need to make a choice.

How doesn't it matter?
Do i just make my choice over nothing? I mean how can i make a choice without debating certain things?...

I could just disregard certain things to make a "Easy choice" but sorry i just don't roll that way.

It's aparent to me you have given this plenty of thought. You rationalized out this paradox with an "all knowing god" in your initial post. Now MAKE UP YOUR MIND AND GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE! To me your coming across as a bit wishy washy and if there is a god I bet he,she,it,them or whatever would not look favorably on your dragging this decision out like you are!

reply to post by Anttyk47


The larger question is not about destiny, but about pride. You are a spiritual being having a human experience. We have clues about our origin but no solid facts. The atheist will tell you that you will live and die and that's it. One fact will tell you different. If you take a look at what you do to live, you only do two things. You think and you move. Other than this, you do nothing to produce your life. It's all done for you. We can assume a purpose form this.

The next clue for me, at least, is knowing that I am not my body. The body is an obvious bio-mechanical suit that is worn. We are clearly designed to the nano degree of engineering. We are both the image of God and 'in' the image of God. I am in the image of me on ATS right now. My words represent me. I created my avatar for use here in this reality of ATS. Being on earth is being 'in' the image of God's kingdom. The real kingdom awaits.

1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

I keep a blog to organize my thoughts on these subjects. LINK Also, view this verse.

Jeremiah 29
11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you,” declares the LORD, “and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the LORD, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.”

Compare this verse to the mystery meaning of the Hebrew Aleph-Bet. LINK

We are banished here in exile. Our redemption is certain. We are here to find love for God and others. This is the rule of God's kingdom. For whatever reason, we are here to reclaim our first estate. We are required to live by faith and not fact.

I have spend some thought on free will, and how it applies to the world just recently and found out that there is no free will. At least this was the first conclusion I had on this. But I kept thinking and later changed my view, when I realized the following. The Choice you can make is between "God's" Dream or "Lucifers" dream.
Eve decided to eat the apple and so decided unknowingly to join Lucifers dream. Adam, who I think is the incarnated "God" in Eden, without beeing conscious of it (On the seventh day god went to sleep I think.), decided to eat the apple, too... Why?! Well, maybe he didn't want to be alone in his dream. Maybe he wanted to save eve. I say he made this decision out of fear, because he didn't want to be alone, instead of trusting in love and wait in eden. Maybe he thought love would decide this way.
So now is the time of awakening, and "god" should wake up right now, getting his dream back in place and letting everyone join, who is able to forgive himself and all the others, deciding to love in the first place.

Erm... and you said that god would know how you will decide, but he won't! That's why it's called free will. You can choose in what dream you want to live in, but the problem is, that in Lucifer's dream nobody knows that it is a dream, while the other side is completly aware of this fact.
This somehow put us all in chains, how would you know you can decide for another dream, if you think you live in some concept of "scientific reality". All this physical manifestations of control depend on this model of reality, because if one would just start dreaming of, let's say, Atlantis, then there would be the possibility that it manifests somehow, and then there is no power anymore. "Scientific Reality" gives you the feeling of apathy, because you feel very small and unable to change anything, which maybe not the truth!

The Book of Romans in the Bible deals very well this issue, thats your best source.
Its a very hot topic in Theology and has been for some time. The answer best suited for your question though is ... well...not the answer you want... I guess.
Go read Romans, its not a long book in the bible.

Originally posted by Anttyk47
So this being known as "God" under the bibles verse is the bearer of all knowledge. "God" is the future the past and present. "God" knew creating me would lead me to make my choices. As in, "God" knew that forming me into what he sees as "Me" would lead "Me" to make my "Choices" to eventually go to hell for being a sinner.

Do you see my point?