What would you do if you 'knew'?

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


Don't forget that time is ever flowing, like water and each event in time has many possibilities, or many paths in which the event can go. Just see one possible future of an event dosn't mean it is the only future. its been said if you could travel back in time and kill hitler before his rise to power, it wouldn't really matter. Certain points in time are set. Someone else would have taken his place and the events of world war II would have happened anyway. Just differently.

hope that helps

Originally posted by jennybee35
The thought of 'saving the world' is very tempting, but actually altering the course of human history would not be a responsibility I would be anxious to take on.

Just a thought on your comment here. Every day, every decision you make, alters history in some way or another through our choice of action or inaction. We are already responsible for what happens further down the line.

As for the question, if it had not been Hitler it may have been someone else, at another place and time. But I do not believe that violence solves anything. If I could go back in time, I would rather go back to his childhood and find the source of his hate and try to replace it with loving kindness.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Fractured.Facade

 

We are not meant to know such things, therefore we are not meant to intervene in our own, or collective destiny.

What if it isn't a vision, but it is a direct observation of your neighbor loading up a tarp, and duct tape, and bricks into his boat, and you see him place a gun into his coat pocket, and leave the house in dark clothing and gloves, and you happen to know that his estranged girlfriend has just become engaged today and plans to take his kids off to Saudi Arabia or Timbucktoo.

Do you intervene?

A realtime observation is much easier to follow, assess and make a judgement followed by calculated, planned, prudent actions.

Not a fair comparison, even with only what is known through posts in this thread... This is an entirely different situation and string of dilemmas.

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
reply to post by undo

 

If that were true in this case, then all of those options would have already been acted upon, with success, and without the need to facilitate a collective consensus here.

no because you're currently the only one proposing the guy even exists and you're the only one proposing that you've seen the guy doing x,y,z in the future. and you're the only one saying there's only 2 choices. so it stands to reason that if it's up to you to make a choice, that you choose the best case scenario. best case scenario would be to not let the guy kill people but not kill him either nor let him kill you. surely there are alternatives to killing

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


only on the internet can one find such nuggets of wisdom as your own.

reply to post by undo


Not really, I proposed that this was all happening to YOU, and asked you what you would do.

It really is that simple.... You had two choices, I explained them more in continuing posts, you don't like the choices, or are convinced that there is another way.. And as of this point in time, it is a perfectly reasonable response.

Okay, you choose to do what exactly in this case?

Go for it.

Just do it... Save us all.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade

The answer to this is not confusing. Since you foresaw the future then you already know that Hitler will kill countless people and that your efforts to stop him, if any, are negligible.

The better question is:
If you know that trying to stop Hitler will not change the future as you have seen it then will you still try?

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
reply to post by undo

 

Not really, I proposed that this was all happening to YOU, and asked you what you would do.

It really is that simple.... You had two choices, I explained them more in continuing posts, you don't like the choices, or are convinced that there is another way.. And as of this point in time, it is a perfectly reasonable response.

Okay, you choose to do what exactly in this case?

Go for it.

Just do it... Save us all.

well if you have to kill him in the future scenario, make a life like version of him out of plaster in the same position he was in when you killed him in the OOBE, paint it. clothe it, think of it as him, shoot it or however you saw yourself killing him, and then solve the dilemma of being stuck in a futile reality (which is ridiculous) in which you kill somebody or something, that looks like him. . maybe you only saw yourself doing just that and it was never a real person! in which case, that part is solved.

now unto next part. fudge up his experiment. destroy the virus. remove the notes on it from his database. that part is solved. you say he has to kill you in choice number 1, so fake your own death, allow him to go thru the motions of killing you but be prepared for it so that it doesn't actually kill you (after all you have already seen how he does it), and then feign death so he thinks he did indeed kill you. maybe you only saw yourself feigning death and thought you were really dead. that part is solved.

now all you have to do is figure out how to convince him not to do it again, short of killing him, cause you already solved that part earlier. shouldn't be that hard.

now there's a new future, where you've taken care of all the other possible futile future scenarios (rolls eyes) and you're treading on new ground. will you see the new future scenario of this individual or is it now done? since you didn't mention that part, i think the rest of the answer is contingent on this.

your turn.

Originally posted by caladonea
reply to post by Fractured.Facade

 

You have proposed the question to us...but did not answer it yourself....what would you the author of this thread do?

I think if a person decides to kill Hitler or anyone like him....they would have to know going in that they would be going to prison....that is a heavy price to pay.....but I think many would pay it.

I personally am not a killer....but during my 72 hours of decision....I may find someone who is.

Of course this is all fiction....and in reality....I would never kill nor have someone killed....it is just not my nature.

edit on 17-9-2011 by caladonea because: add more words

edit on 17-9-2011 by caladonea because: correction

Dear lady, as a man married to a Redhead,

your eyes say you could gut a man with ease for the right reason.

We all have the killer in us. Its our dark side. We just keep it in the closet around "polite" company.

reply to post by undo


Did you really read the thread... All of my posts?

Of course, your suggestions are noted, and will be given great consideration here.

Thank you, and thank you all.

God-bless, and Godspeed.

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade

Originally posted by AwakeinNM

If I could confirm that what I was seeing was indeed future vents, then I might act. I couldn't make a decision unless I were faced with the actual scenario and assessed my thoughts and feelings at that time.

In the opening post, you'll see where these events were tested and proven... There are things that you may see in premonitions, psychic revealings... Nothing in those can compare to "knowing" with absolute certainty, and ultimately testing it by intervening in events before they happen.

But, in this case... Maybe this one is wrong?

Now is not the time for indecision, or inaction... Unless it is entirely willful.

I think it would be a hard call to make even if there was an overwhelming certainty.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


well you said

There are only two possible outcomes in every case, one where you intervene and one where you do not, you are completely aware of both.

in the scenario choice i explored with you as the main actor, you intervened.

you said:

You wont have to, if you carry out the solution, you already know that it ends badly for you, no matter how you pull it off.

HOWEVER, you only see that in the OOBE, you have no proof that it was indeed him that you killed and not just a statue or figurine, and you can't prove that he actually killed you either because you could be faking it.

you asked

So, how does one deal with the outcome of doing nothing?

by doing something.

The very presence of the dilemmas suggests that you do not know which choice you will make... So we are back where we started here.

of course you know which choice you will make, cause you're a nice guy, and you wouldn't want people to get hurt, so you already made those choices and killed a not real person and feigned death. lol

If you choose to take him out within this 72 hour period, it will go down as a random act of violence, from an insane person who was killed by security at the site where this man will be in that time period. There is only one way to do it, and it must be quick... Only one opportunity

No, there's always building a fake scene, where it looks like it did in your oobe, so the one opportunity is taken against a life like model of the guy, not a real person. And as a result, the security don't have to kill you cause you haven't done any killing, just fooled yourself. lol

not my fault you made the scenario futile to solve in any other fashion.

YOU HAVE TO LIE TO YOURSELF to solve it lol see, that's why it's better to deal with super position in future scenarios. cause there's always a way out of a "futile" scenario if it's a future event

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


Kinda reminds me of a Dr. Who episode.

How do we know that Hilter isnt a fixed point in time? Was he supposed to do what he did?

To have made this all work, the PERFECT time would have been when he was wounded in France.

You would HAVE to get him before he came to power. Prior to the "Beer Hall Pusch".

After power, the vacuum would have been filled with the likes of Himmler (who was the real power imho).

If I had the option, yeah. I would have without a second thought. For all the good done by the party during the very early years, it was of no consequence to the innocents axed (on all sides) and the destruction to Deutschland.

I agree with the Fatherland taking back what land was lost after WW! and the attack on Russia, but It was poorly executed (in the end) and not worth the price. 86ing the jews was really uncalled for. They fought as patriots during ww1 as well. THEY WERE GERMAN!!!! Why wouldnt they the second time? If some were found to be communist sympathizers (Jew or otherwise), make examples of THAT PERSON.

THIS is where the insanity was fed by Himmler and Goebels came into play.

FDR and the rest are all EQUALLY to blame for all the atrocities in WW2.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


The main characters gift was to shake hands with someone and instantly know that persons future. One day he shakes hands with a candidate for senate and in a moment he sees him becoming president and using his power unjustly to begin launching all the US nuclear missiles. This would result in the end of life as we know it, so the main character is stuck in your quandry. This is where he begs the question: If you could go back in time and kill Adolf Hitler, would you? He asks his dad this and his dad ( a doctor) says yes.

This a very short version. Good book.

I think i would probably test my gift a lot more and see what would happen if i tampered with such things. Morally, i think it would be the right thing to do but with all the changes it could bring, well, i'd have to know exactly what i was getting into.

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade

Originally posted by muzzleflash

I see what the point of this is and I am defeating that point.

You could be hardening the resolve here as well.

Again, how do you reconcile inaction, in this case, as outlined in the OP, when it comes to pass, as seen and known and you did nothing?

This sounds like the plot to 12 monkeys.

Peace

That is a very difficult question to answer, and i think it would be the sole decision of 'the seer' to decide. but it boils down to the age old question, "WHAT IF?" What if this is supposed to happen. Does the 'seer' have the moral obligation, or responsibility to prevent this from happening, and if they do prevent it, what would the consequences of that event be, it could open the door for someone ten times worse that would have originally died. but in the here and now it would prevent the massacre of millions of people. so it is a double edged sword. But if i were the 'seer', and had 72 hours to make that decision, i would most likely make the decision to stop him before he came to power...
reply to post by Fractured.Facade

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
If you had advance absolute knowledge before Hitler rose to power, would you have killed him?

no; with absolute knowledge comes absolute understanding.

It's an interesting question.

Hypothetically speaking, Hitler being killed beforehand would have only halted his carnage; but are we talking about the continuum concept at the same time? If Hitler died early, would someone even worse have risen?

Basically, is it fate or some Power or pure chance that governs us? If it's fate, then I would probably kill this new slaughterer but doubt it would be successful. If a power, like a God etc., destined it to be so, nothing I do will stop the end of the world destruction virus. If we live by pure chance, then I would think that somehow I had managed to reach a point in my evolution to see that humanity is on the brink of extinction and then I would dispose of the man as quietly as possible.

No, because everyone has their OWN PATH in life, which no one should interfere/murder. noone has a right to murder anyone unless in rare circumstances of self defense. What Hitler did will remain forever as a heavy weight in his soul, if it was not destroyed by God, which is also likely.

You are justifying it as to "save others", but even his soul may have changed its path towards something good. Possibilities are endless, but if you have tried to harm that soul, it would be on your conscience.

We all have to live our lives, but not interfere in other's lives and their right to experience life. Hence, I am against ANY military conflict, whatever your governments tell you- it's their own agenda. No one has a right to harm any other living being, including animals.