What Does Abortion Have To Do With Pro-Choice?

Slippery slope.


If abortion is made illegal, the pill and over the counter methods will soon follow.

BTW Who thinks that a woman would not chose the other methods first?
The big A is the very last resort and last I checked it took a man to create the situation yet they seem to be the most vocal in condeming it.

Turn the tables
If abortion is made illegal fine. The man must support the woman and child until the child is 21 in a middle class lifestyle. Pay for a suitable private school where the child will learn how to be more than just a burger flipping robot. Too bad if he has to sleep in a cardboard box for the rest of his life to pay for it. The child quality of life is worth more than a fathers who was careless and created an unplanned life.
Sounds pretty drastic a punishment for a mistake doesn't it guys?

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
So if I enter your house when you invite me you can kill me because your choice to murder me is greater than my life?

My HOUSE is not my BODY. If you enter my body (as a fetus is FULLY INSIDE the body), then yes, I would take you out without a second's thought. This is MY body. My person. MY choice.

If men got pregnant, this discussion would NEVER come up. And if it did, I'd defend the men completely. I will never understand how men think that this subject is ANY of their business. People who think they have a right to another person's body (and want the GOVERNMENT to get involved) are a scourge on this country and really make me sick.

When you vote that the government should make decisions about the medical surgeries and practices that YOU choose, then I'll give you some credit. Until then, you're just putting your nose in where it doesn't belong.

As regards the terms "pro-choice" and "pro-abortion"... I am pro-choice. I would not choose an abortion for myself (even in the case of rape or incest), but I understand the concepts of true freedom and choice. I don't just pay it lip service, like some people here.

You're against women having the choice. You're anti-choice. You want the government to dictate control over a woman's body... Good luck with that. But don't expect that calling people 'murderers' and all this other emotional garbage is going to change a thing.

Women will NOT be controlled by control-freak men again.

It's too late to try to regain that position over women. This is 2011. Welcome to the present.

reply to post by meeneecat


Excellent!

Originally posted by meeneecat
A) Why are some people so concerned about other people's personal lives.
B) Why are so many so-called "small government" people advocating BIG government policy for abortion (i.e. forced medically unnecessary ultrasounds, mandated government written scripts that doctors must read which & also medically inaccurate, gov't mandated "waiting periods", etc.)

People who spout "Freedom and Rights", while denying rights to the people with which they disagree are hypocrites of the highest order. There are MANY of these on both sides of the political aisle.

In my opinion....it is a sad choice to be had. To kill or not to kill that is the choice.

If I could adopt all the unwanted I would in a heart beat. I would have a band, a football team, an army, and my own herd of children that deserve the chance at "Life". If they were from a drug abused parent, a rapist, or what have you....I would help all who needed my help. ****SIGH****.....

Such a sad discussion really....

Peace and love to all the unborn!!!! xoxoxox May you have a chance at life and if you do not get said chance you are able to forgive the "choice" made to terminate your existence.

At the end of the day....it is a choice and women have the choice to decide what is best for them. Is it selfish? I personally think it is but....I am not the one faced with the "choice"....so be it..even if it is sooo sad.

Originally posted by MamaJ
In my opinion....it is a sad choice to be had. To kill or not to kill that is the choice.

If I could adopt all the unwanted I would in a heart beat. I would have a band, a football team, an army, and my own herd of children that deserve the chance at "Life". If they were from a drug abused parent, a rapist, or what have you....I would help all who needed my help. ****SIGH****.....

Such a sad discussion really....

Peace and love to all the unborn!!!! xoxoxox May you have a chance at life and if you do not get said chance you are able to forgive the "choice" made to terminate your existence.

At the end of the day....it is a choice and women have the choice to decide what is best for them. Is it selfish? I personally think it is but....I am not the one faced with the "choice"....so be it..even if it is sooo sad.

Thanks for the wise words.

lol, this is a bit like saying black people are going to be slaves anyway, so the only way to give them a non-abusive master is to grant permits and legalize it.

Who cares if women have to go through hoops to kill them, it's the killing part that's the problem.

reply to post by ModernAcademia

You can do whatever you want to your house within property rights as long as you don't hurt the property of your neighbors but does that mean if I am inside of your house you can kill me?

Depending on the state, yes, they can kill you if they perceive impending harm. Anyways, that has to be one of the worst comparisons ever.

Let me put it this way. Is it a crime if a man masturbates? Is it murder that instead of loading his girlfriend with sperm that could potentially make her pregnant, he leaves them in a wad of paper or a sock? What right does anyone, anywhere, have over someone's body?

While that fetus is developing it is completely dependent on the mother, until that baby is born and the umbilical chord is severed, is it a piece of her body. Once pregnant, the mother has a few months before that fetus, according to our definition of life, is "alive". As heartless as this may sound, until a few months in that fetus is nothing more than a tumor.

Now, I don't necessarily agree with late term abortion. In all honesty, I don't necessarily agree with abortion at all. BUT, i'm a man, and it's not my body being put through the ringer, and put at risk. I just can't even begin to understand the nerve of people who think they can dictate what someone else does. I guess that's why I'm against the war on drugs, and also 100% in favor of gay rights including marriage (let them live miserable sex starved lives like the rest of us).

It's funny I saw this thread as on my way for my morning coffee we pasted the womans clinic here and, of course, the protesters are out there waving around a plastic fetus.

I just don't get it. How does that woman having a right to choose have any effect on anyone else but her? Sure it affects the life that might have been. How is harassing that poor girl, going in for an appointment to weigh her options, going to help YOU at all? I find it disgusting really.

If you don't agree with it, write your congress person or MP, work for change in the government and change in the laws. Standing there yelling at a poor girl who is obviously in a desperate situation.

Better yet. Maybe invest some time, effort, and money into funding programs to help women who do have their kids and are poor and have no where to turn. Make the adoption system easier to access and SAFER for the kids placed in it. Give these girls another option other than abortion.

I get a kick out of the people shouting:

"they are killing babies!!!"

No, they are aborting a fetus. Now, your government on the other hand, IS killing babies, in various countries right now. But most of them are brown people so that's fine, no need to stand outside the state department holding up plastic dead arab babies. Nope, that's fine.

They are killing children, real alive fully born and developed children, in gaza right now on a daily basis. Are you outside the UN demanding Israel be brought to task for this? Are you standing outside the white house demanding the billions of dollars in aid to Israel a year stop because they are using your money to kill babies?

no of course not.

You know what all this anti-abortion retarded-ness is actually about? Ignoring the purely religious fanatical side, it's about not actually doing anything of substance, but letting yourself FEEL like you do.

I think it was in a Mike Moore book where he talked about recycling, and we're all trained little monkeys separating our glass from plastic and putting out the little blue box and feeling good, knowing we made a difference. the problem was, in his case, all of that recyclable material, all out there in the right boxes and bags, was going to the same landfill as the unsorted garbage.

no, no need to worry about our consumption and pollution, I put the cans in one bag and the glass in another and I did my part.

That's what this is about, instead of working to fix the conditions that lead to the amount of girls having abortions, and just go after the girls.

reply to post by MamaJ


I agree also with you, it is a hard choice to be made, but I am glad that I had the freedom of that choice and so my daughter, hopefully so my grad daughters will have it too if needed, this will be a sad day when women's body could be monitored, by force of law to become the private property to be regulated by a government because the over zealots few, that find too much of their personal time monitoring others reproductive organs .

Sadly as soon the mother to be decide to have the un wanted child, compashion turns into reproach when that same mother has to go into tax payer welfare to support the child, the outrage about all those single mothers than can not keep their legs closed and having unwanted children.

Lo and behold the hypocrecy.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Kitilani
Any attempt at an honest conversation ended with this "pro-abortion" nonsense. I have never seen a pro-abortionist in my life. Where can I get a flyer? Go to a meeting? Where do they protest?

Indeed. My wife and I exercised our freedom of choice at an unexpected pregnancy, and the choice was to have the child, despite difficult circumstances at hand.

But it was a choice.

Likewise not one person I know who has had an abortion did so because they simply were "pro-abortion." They did it because it was a very difficult choice that had to be made that came with huge emotional and even in some cases physical tolls. None of them WANTED to have an abortion, they just knew what the less evil choice was going to be for them and made that choice. I am waiting for the OP to present me with this group that just gets knocked up and has abortions because they are "pro-abortion."

Originally posted by The Old American
Dunno what was so funny about it, but it won't be a killin, it will be tens of thousands, actually. OMGLOL!!111


A husband finds out that his wife is pregnant by another man. He beats her soundly, and the fetus dies. This was a premeditated act. It's in the first trimester. He is successfully convicted of murder.

A woman finds out she is pregnant and doesn't want to be. She has not been raped, there is no reasonable cause to think there won't be a successful birth of a healthy child. It's in the first trimester. She aborts the fetus. This was a premeditated act. She is held up as a shining example of women being able to do what they want with their bodies.

Human babies are used every day as political tools. And the people that use them that way are also tools.

/TOA

Your thought experiment fails in reality. How about you provide a real case. Names, dates, etc to go along with your point so we can see just how logical it really is in the real world to compare a woman volunteering for a procedure to her being involuntarily assaulted by someone else.

Unless you can put some real world facts behind it, it is worthless. Can you?

Originally posted by MamaJ
If I could adopt all the unwanted I would in a heart beat. I would have a band, a football team, an army, and my own herd of children that deserve the chance at "Life". If they were from a drug abused parent, a rapist, or what have you....I would help all who needed my help. ****SIGH****.....

But you can't do that can you?
I cannot do that. I doubt the OP could do that.
That is the sad reality. Until there really are people that really can take in ALL those kids, something else needs to be done. Besides, the same right wingers that do not want them aborted also do not want to help them when they fall through the cracks in society. That leaves us with a pretty big mess. The world is not a perfect place. Letting everyone with sex organs reproduce with no stemming the tide is not going to make it better.

reply to post by The Old American

A husband finds out that his wife is pregnant by another man. He beats her soundly, and the fetus dies. This was a premeditated act. It's in the first trimester. He is successfully convicted of murder.

Actually, no. In about half of US states, he would only be convicted of an assault on the woman.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Let me ask the question in another way. This is the way I've looked at the issue:

I am anti-abortion. I would never donate to an org that promotes it, nor would I vote for a candidate who supported it. But I am also Pro-Choice since I would not take that decision out of the hands of a woman.

Does that sum up your OP?

reply to post by mishigas


Mishigas you are a wise individual, yes I am not been sarcastic, actually you are exercising your right to chose also and make decisions base on your believes, but also respect the decisions and believes of others.

Something that many have a hard time to understand because they want their believes to be the only one for all.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
My HOUSE is not my BODY. If you enter my body (as a fetus is FULLY INSIDE the body), then yes, I would take you out without a second's thought. This is MY body. My person. MY choice.

Your house is not your body
In any case the analogy still applies
My house, My Home, My Choice, I can kill anyone who enters my home even if I invite them?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If men got pregnant, this discussion would NEVER come up.

It's not anatomically possible for men to give birth, I mean just think of where it would come out of

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I will never understand how men think that this subject is ANY of their business. People who think they have a right to another person's body (and want the GOVERNMENT to get involved) are a scourge on this country and really make me sick.

Then how could you understand why neighbours call the police when an abusive husband hits his wife?
It's none of their business
How could you understand if a bible thumper kills an atheist and some random person calls the cops?

Murder is murder, now if you want to argue that it's not murder then make that point
But if you understand that some people consider abortion murder then you should have no reason to be unable to understand why BOTH men AND WOMEN are against abortion.

I don't know why you threw men in there, there are plent of female anti-abortionists.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
When you vote that the government should make decisions about the medical surgeries and practices that YOU choose, then I'll give you some credit. Until then, you're just putting your nose in where it doesn't belong.

That's a ridiculous argument, it has nothing to do with medical practices.

That's like saying the govt. should get invovled on how you illegally kill an innocent person, with a gun or with a knife. The method of killing is not the topic here.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You're against women having the choice. You're anti-choice. You want the government to dictate control over a woman's body... Good luck with that. But don't expect that calling people 'murderers' and all this other emotional garbage is going to change a thing.

I am not anti-choice, I am extremely pro choice, everything about me is pro-choice.
But as mentioned, pro-choice means you are not harming another person's body, only your own.
Whether it's harming or pleasure, whatever it is as long as you don't make any decision for another life.

Originally posted by VforVendettea
Slippery slope.


If abortion is made illegal, the pill and over the counter methods will soon follow.

BTW Who thinks that a woman would not chose the other methods first?
The big A is the very last resort and last I checked it took a man to create the situation yet they seem to be the most vocal in condeming it.

Turn the tables
If abortion is made illegal fine. The man must support the woman and child until the child is 21 in a middle class lifestyle. Pay for a suitable private school where the child will learn how to be more than just a burger flipping robot. Too bad if he has to sleep in a cardboard box for the rest of his life to pay for it. The child quality of life is worth more than a fathers who was careless and created an unplanned life.
Sounds pretty drastic a punishment for a mistake doesn't it guys?

edit on 6-9-2011 by VforVendettea because: (no reason given)

This is a pretty good example of why divorce rates are so high. All these "and make the man live in a cardboard box because who cares" examples from "empowered" women. Obviously there are many that feel they are entitled to do what they want with their "bodies" and have no other responsibilities whatsoever. The above quote is the exact example of someone who wants equal "rights" but obviously not equal responsibilities. Where are you exactly in all this? Are you on some beach somewhere sipping margaritas (with/without the child??) while the guy is living in a cardboard box due to paying for the child and most likely, YOUR living expenses? Wait, I thought women wanted EQUAL rights?

Why is it such a problem to alllow a man to have a say so on whether his son or daughter can live? Carry the thing for 9 months, and if you want nothing to do with it after that, then allow the father to raise him/her. You can go live your whole life without either one. Hell, the way the system works these days, you prolly wont even be ordered to pay child support.

ETA: I have very strict views on abortion because I think most of them are just excuses. My son was born when I was 17, his mother (she was 16) and I BOTH made the choice that he be born instinctively. In fact, abortion wasn't even on the table. Neither one of us had ANYTHING, we were teenagers. I worked at Wendy's and later got my G.E.D. She finished H.S. at an alternative school. His mother and I did not stay together, there were hard times but such is life! My son is 17 now, he's a very intelligent and decent fellow with top honors in school. He's already taking college classes in H.S. and will be going to a University in Denver next year. I've seem him nearly every weekend since his birth. I could never imagine my life without him, and I can't imagine why anyone unless under extreme circumstances wouldn't allow their child to live.

reply to post by marg6043


Thank you, marg. I learned much from you over the years. You're like my personal Yoda.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by MamaJ

 

I agree also with you, it is a hard choice to be made, but I am glad that I had the freedom of that choice and so my daughter, hopefully so my grad daughters will have it too if needed, this will be a sad day when women's body could be monitored, by force of law to become the private property to be regulated by a government because the over zealots few, that find too much of their personal time monitoring others reproductive organs .

Sadly as soon the mother to be decide to have the un wanted child, compashion turns into reproach when that same mother has to go into tax payer welfare to support the child, the outrage about all those single mothers than can not keep their legs closed and having unwanted children.

Lo and behold the hypocrecy.

They say it takes a village to raise a child. My family holds to this!! We are always helping each other out when we are in need not to mention we all continue to congregate at my Grandmothers and eat together most nights. We are the "odd" bunch though. Most families don't even eat together anymore. Family is not just blood....it is our race as humans to be of service to one another. Too bad everyone doesn't feel this way.

Welfare or not....the children need to eat and there are plenty of us that can stand to go without a meal to help out. That to me is pretty trivial when we are talking about a life. No money can put a price on it in my opinion.

I do not like to be controlled. I like freedom, however freedom is not all what it seems to be. There is nothing"free"!

I do NOT agree with killing anything much less a fetus! Like I said...if I could raise all of them...I WOULD in a heart beat.

You can paint it a pretty picture or a real sad one where the fetus must be terminated, however it is a real thin line. You can say it is the womans body....but the fetus does not have a voice to say HEY....I am alive here. I have been given life....can I choose to live?? There is no voice for a fetus except the ones crying to end abortion.

I have friends who terminated their pregnancy because they were not ready. Some can have children while others are not able to now. It is something I do not agree with but it is not my choice to decide what is right or wrong for each person ....that is on them.

I do well keeping my own porch clean.

Originally posted by Kitilani

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Kitilani
Any attempt at an honest conversation ended with this "pro-abortion" nonsense. I have never seen a pro-abortionist in my life. Where can I get a flyer? Go to a meeting? Where do they protest?

Indeed. My wife and I exercised our freedom of choice at an unexpected pregnancy, and the choice was to have the child, despite difficult circumstances at hand.

But it was a choice.

Likewise not one person I know who has had an abortion did so because they simply were "pro-abortion." They did it because it was a very difficult choice that had to be made that came with huge emotional and even in some cases physical tolls. None of them WANTED to have an abortion, they just knew what the less evil choice was going to be for them and made that choice. I am waiting for the OP to present me with this group that just gets knocked up and has abortions because they are "pro-abortion."

Well if you really want to compare apples to apples I say we just kill whomever without the law of murder. We can all have the freedom to terminate anyones life.

it will help with disease and population and so on....lets just kill em all!

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I don't understand how some people can say that being pro-abortion means you are pro-choice and if you are against abortion you are not pro-choice.

How does that make sense?

To me pro-choice = you can do whatever you want to your body

but with Abortion it's not about YOUR body, it's about the body(depending on trimester) inside of you.

You can do whatever you want to your house within property rights as long as you don't hurt the property of your neighbors but does that mean if I am inside of your house you can kill me?

In some cases even when you invited me?

Where do you think the fetus gestates...in a box? (yes, it was from 'Life of Brian!) Under the wing of a stork?

Of course, it's inside the body of the woman. If she doesn't want the pregnancy, it's her choice to end it.

I'd say 'pro choice' should be extended to children when they come of age in regards 'Baptism'...but somehow, i doubt you'd be hot on that either...you know, actually allowing a human being to make up their own minds.

Religious types always drone on about the rights of 'the child'...yet, as soon as a child is born to a religious couple, they can't indoctrinate it quick enough into THEIR belief system. Basically, religious people are anti-choice on most levels...they are 'do as i say and do as i do, or else you are the spawn of evil and so on and on.

I do however feel that women should be less lackadaisical about their responsibilities regarding unwanted pregnancy than they are in many cases, and most of the 'abortion' issues would be moot. Although there are circumstances where there is no control in the matter of course, rape, sexual abuse and so on, failure of contraceptives of one sort or another etc. so of course it's not all about irresponsibility.

There is now the 'morning after' pill that has been out for a number of years too.

This should be used as soon as unprotected sex has taken place in my opinion, then there's be very few unwanted pregnancies to discuss.

The bottom line for me, is that it's a woman's decision what grows or does not grow, inside and supported by her own body.

Doctors routinely decide to switch off life support machines every day of the week, and effectively kill human beings, mainly due to the cost of keeping the victim alive.

I don't hear too many religious types bleating on about this. But then again, a woman or couple, weakened emotionally and facing a tough personal decision regarding a pregnancy are a lot easier targets than the entire medical establishment, switching life support machines off for the poor.

Another way to view the choice Vs do as we command, is think of a hypothetical medical system, in which medical science has come up with a new way for heart / Liver / lung / Kidney transplant patients to survive while they wait for a new heart...simply take an anti abortionist, and sew the patient to the backs of the 'host', hook them up to the main arteries, airways etc, Siamese twin style for 9 months or so...they can share your blood and oxygen supply during that time and you'll keep them alive.

Of course, this goes for heart/Lung etc. patients who happen to be rapists and child molesters too...and all ethnic creeds and religions..or sexualities..or political persuasion..after all life is life right?

I wonder how many would volunteer to be a 'Siamese host'? Not as many who are willing to harass woman about their own bodies and what is attached to it, that's for bloody sure.

I think men especially have to stop trying to exert their political will on women.

And

I think theocrats need to stop trying to project their religious values on other
people.

None of you have the right to dictate such a major life decision for other people,
it is not your business, mind your own business, simple.