What Does Abortion Have To Do With Pro-Choice?

Originally posted by Charmed707

It's all about women not having to deal with the consequences of the choices they already made.

Why SHOULD they have to deal with it if it can be solved? This is more than a "lesson learned" type of consequential scenario. This isn't just one life we're talking about... this is two. The mother AND the father both had plans other than being a parent, I'm assuming, if they're looking into getting an abortion.

Throughout that childs life, BOTH the parents are going to feel like they've been screwed out of what they wanted out of life.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by AmazonOfArtemis
What exactly do these threads acheive? It should ALWAYS be a woman's choice whether or not she decides to have a child.

It IS almost always her choice, rape aside, to get pregnant or not
What are you talking about?

Originally posted by AmazonOfArtemis
It is very easy to sit there and judge other people just because you believe your point of view is the only moral and correct choice

Ok let's not talk about entitlements right now
HAHA

But you are sitting there yourself in front of a keyboard trying to dictate what is the moral path

Originally posted by AmazonOfArtemis
What about women who have been raped?

as mentioned rape aside

I am dictating a moral path? No, I'm pointing out what isn't moral. Who are you to say what a woman should or shouldn't do with her body or her pregnancy?

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I have to give you credit you still know how to stir controversy, I guess is been a long lonely day and I have fell for it.

I guess I am done and good luck with honest unbias opinions, motivate by emotions.

You seem to be thinking that a fetus is going to definately be born from every pregnancy, and that all a woman is, is some sort of taxi service. Both assumptions, in my opinion are incorrect. At the end of the day, why are you so worried about what others are doing?
And, yes, if you were in my house and you wouldn't leave, i do have the right to kill you.

Originally posted by AmazonOfArtemis
I am dictating a moral path? No, I'm pointing out what isn't moral.

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Well... thanks for clearing that up

Originally posted by joshter

Why SHOULD they have to deal with it if it can be solved?

Taking innocent lives is not a solution.

This is more than a "lesson learned" type of consequential scenario.

Wrong. Most women who have abortions have had previous abortions.

This isn't just one life we're talking about... this is two. The mother AND the father both had plans other than being a parent, I'm assuming, if they're looking into getting an abortion.

The father legally has no say in whether an abortion will occur or not. The mere fact that they decided to have sex is telling that they must not be too concerned whether a child is conceived. Actions speak louder than words. If you would REALLY hate to have a child that bad, there are options you have to ensure 100% that a pregnancy will not occur. There is simply no excuse for aborting a fetus that was conceived in consensual sex.

Throughout that childs life, BOTH the parents are going to feel like they've been screwed out of what they wanted out of life.

They were 'screwed out of what they wanted in life' because of THEMSELVES. They were fully aware of the consequences of their actions. You can't act like a helpless child all of your life. The government does not function as a means to take responsibility for your sexual behavior. Stop treating sexually mature adults as if they are helpless animals who are incapable of choice and understanding the consequences of those choices.

Originally posted by marg6043
I have to give you credit you still know how to stir controversy,

I guess is been a long lonely day and I have fell for it.

Umm......
If I give an opinion that you don't agree with then I am merely trying to stir up controversy?

If so with that perception why even engage in any debate on the face of this planet?

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by AmazonOfArtemis
I am dictating a moral path? No, I'm pointing out what isn't moral.

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Well... thanks for clearing that up

What's funny? Dictating and pointing something out, are two very different things are they not? You left out my question, what gives you the right to tell everyone on ATS that abortion is wrong?

Originally posted by jeramie
It doesn't matter what it's called. It's still murder.

Since you have taken it upon yourself to make such a declaration, how many lives have you spared by offering to adopt 'unwanted' children?

Cuz talk is cheap.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by AmazonOfArtemis

 

Thank you, make illegal abortion in the US and I bet you that Mexico and Canadian doctors will start making a killing, because women will always find a way.

Abortion is as old as humanity itself.

so is straight up murder, but we seem to have a law against that. it still happens, but that doesn't mean the law against it is pointless. also, you're suggesting that killing babies for profit is a good thing. neither of your arguments work.

killing a child (for convenience no less) is never an option.

and for the record, my brother was going to be aborted, but my parents adopted him.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I thought you were looking for opinions not debate but then again you can not bring a subject of abortion without some feisty debate motivated by emotion, sadly when it comes to abortion I have not emotions and I stand by my choice, no debate plain and simple, I am too old to be excusing myself for my choices.

But then again, abortion subject does bring the best of all of us.

as you can see by some of the opinions here, because is just opinions.

It's kind of like say Germans should have the choice to torture Jews.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by AmazonOfArtemis

 

Mexico and Canadian doctors will start making a killing

Dunno what was so funny about it, but it won't be a killin, it will be tens of thousands, actually. OMGLOL!!111


A husband finds out that his wife is pregnant by another man. He beats her soundly, and the fetus dies. This was a premeditated act. It's in the first trimester. He is successfully convicted of murder.

A woman finds out she is pregnant and doesn't want to be. She has not been raped, there is no reasonable cause to think there won't be a successful birth of a healthy child. It's in the first trimester. She aborts the fetus. This was a premeditated act. She is held up as a shining example of women being able to do what they want with their bodies.

Human babies are used every day as political tools. And the people that use them that way are also tools.

/TOA

reply to post by marg6043


The purely emotional rhetoric largely comes from 'pro-choicers' who usually resort to the 'rape' strawman and act as if women who make the choice to have sex are victims when they end up with an 'unwanted' pregnancy. Not to mention the fact that many pro-choicers are driven by their childish desire to not be obligated to take responsibility for their actions.

reply to post by The Old American


Interesting, when I posted that post it was no even closes to my mind the link between making a killing and abortion obviously due to the very sensitive issue of abortion to "many" that part of my post is been scrutinized, I just figured out with your post.

Sadly the link to killing was to monetary compensation.

Then again do to the fact that I have not emotions when it comes to the issue of abortion I was oblivious.

I have to say that when it comes to abortion issues people tend to get all wrap up in their panties.

Very interesting indeed, the human mind is such an amazing thing, it only grabs what it wants and toss away what doesn't fit preconceived notions.

Many points to make about this:

A) Why are some people so concerned about other people's personal lives.
B) Why are so many so-called "small government" people advocating BIG government policy for abortion (i.e. forced medically unnecessary ultrasounds, mandated government written scripts that doctors must read which & also medically inaccurate, gov't mandated "waiting periods", etc.)
C) Why do so many people not seem to understand basic economic principles. Banning something when there is demand for said service or substance only makes the problem worse (i.e. look at the drug war / 1920's prohibition for examples)

D) Finally regarding the "abortion = murder" declaration that so many people like to make. Why do people not seem to understand that this is an OPINION...having no more value than a statement like "Pizza is the best food". To illustrate:

Something, it seems that not many fundamental religious folk will tell you, if they are even aware of this...is

1) the bible says nothing about abortion (it talks about the value of "life", but this is an entirely different issue, especially given the fact that the bible also encourages things like stoning, war, slavery, etc. etc.) and

2) throughout history, abortion was something that was widely practiced by Christians and other religions alike. it was common belief that abortion was not considered murder so long as it was done before "quickening", aka the time during pregnancy when the baby "drops" (also known as "ensoulment", generally referring to the belief that a human baby would receive it's "soul" during a specific time during pregnancy, and this was when it was believed that the fetus became a pers, thus abortions performed before this time were not considered murder). This belief was also enshrined in Vatican law, which also stated abortion was not murder if done before "quickening". Throughout most of Christianity's history, this was the law concerning abortion...only for 2 centuries between 2CE and 4CE did it change. However in 5CE the law changed back again to abortion being acceptable. Finally, it's interesting that abortion wasn't completely outlawed by the Church until the 1880's, because this was also right around the same time that the women's rights movement was born (i.e. suffrage/the right to vote)

3) Concerning another matter dealing with religion...it seems to be the belief of most "abortion = murder" people that their belief is the only correct one despite the fact that there isn't even a consensus among the major religions of the world as to "when life begins" and when abortion is okay and isn't. Considering that most of these people's opinions are also based on their religions beliefs and that the "morality" of abortion is also based on the question of "when life begins"...you would think that some people would be more aware of the fact that there are major religions with differing beliefs on both the issue of "when life begins" and the acceptability of abortion.

For example, according to traditional Jewish belief, Halacha (Jewish law) states that a baby does not become a full fledged person (nefesh) until the baby's head exits the womb. Judaism also considers circumstances when abortion would be considered acceptable, such as when the mother's life or health is at risk (among other circumstances). Also, to quote this passage:

Talmud contains the expression 'ubar yerech imo--the fetus is as the thigh of its mother,' i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman's body." 1This is grounded in Exodus 21:22. That biblical passage outlines the Mosaic law in a case where a man is responsible for causing a woman's miscarriage, which kills the fetus If the woman survives, then the perpetrator has to pay a fine to the woman's husband. If the woman dies, then the perpetrator is also killed. This indicates that the fetus has value, but does not have the status of a person.

(source)

There are also dozens of of Christian and Jewish sects which are also "pro-choice" (i.e. Episcopal Church, Presbyterian Church, United Church of Christ, Methodist Church, among others.)
---------
In conclusion, It doesn't make sense that some people, the same people who claim to value their own "freedom of religion" would want to dictate to other religious groups and non religious people alike what to believe and what laws to follow. They act as if the issue of "when life begins" has already been decided upon and is religious consensus when in reality it is far from consensus...Again, saying something like "abortion = murder" would be akin to saying "Pizza is the best food" or "Red is the best color"...it is nothing more than opinion...far different from Fact...and this means that you do not get to decide for everyone else what to believe, or dictate policy or laws to force everyone to follow, based on your own opinion or emotional feeling

reply to post by celticpride

And, yes, if you were in my house and you wouldn't leave, i do have the right to kill you.

No, you dont, if I could not leave. A foetus cannot leave. Even if I could leave and wont, it is not a black and white question. Plenty of people would believe that if I am not endangering you, then you still have no such right.

As for the thread topic, I am anti-choice and pro-abortion. A woman should not have right to choose about her own body if it kills or harms the baby, yet abortion in the first half of pregnancy is not in any way immoral because the brain of the foetus is not developed yet.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I don't understand how some people can say that being pro-abortion means you are pro-choice and if you are against abortion you are not pro-choice.

Any attempt at an honest conversation ended with this "pro-abortion" nonsense. I have never seen a pro-abortionist in my life. Where can I get a flyer? Go to a meeting? Where do they protest?

reply to post by ModernAcademia


It's quite simple. The population is most effectively managed through false dichotomies--the presentation of choice when in reality there is none. Hence, left v. right, Republican v. Democrat, labor v. capital, pro-life v. pro-choice. It can go on and on.

Most here on ATS know that the left and right, the Republicans and the Democrats, the labor unions and the capitalists, are all controlled by the same people. All they do is rile us up against each other to keep us distracted from their influence.

Why would the abortion debate be any different? The debate itself is a distraction--arguing about when life begins instead of discussing the value of life instrinsically. Your energy is being manipulated and wasted, channeled through modes of discourse designed to make you ask the wrong question.

"What is life?" is not the right question.

"What does it mean?" is the question. No one wants you to think about that.

Originally posted by Kitilani
Any attempt at an honest conversation ended with this "pro-abortion" nonsense. I have never seen a pro-abortionist in my life. Where can I get a flyer? Go to a meeting? Where do they protest?

Indeed. My wife and I exercised our freedom of choice at an unexpected pregnancy, and the choice was to have the child, despite difficult circumstances at hand.

But it was a choice.