What Does Abortion Have To Do With Pro-Choice?

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Its not your business, why do you think it is your business?

It is not your body and you are not going to pay for another person
are you?

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reply to post by ModernAcademia

What Does Abortion Have To Do With Pro-Choice?

Unfortunately, the subject of abortion has become political and like other subjects, such as Global Warming, the whole thing has reduced to a quagmire of spew and argue.

But most basically, when does conception become human? When does sex turn into a new human life that has a right to live?

That's always been the base question and always been the pivot point because... no one knows for sure.

The thoughtful human does not have casual sex that is unprotected so, there are no unwanted questions about unexpected conceptions. But we also know that people can be greedy. We know that we can care less about others than we do ourselves... and we can do this without the first drop of religion.

The thing is when does that egg and that spermitoad mating create a human life that has rights to exist?

When does your conscience step in and answer that question?

When does your personal responsibility take control so that accidents don't happen?

Oh hecjk. We're just human... none of that will ever happen and the fight will go on forever.

Originally posted by Sunlionspirit

you do not have to put your sticky penis into her body and your sticky fingers into her womb and decide what she has to do with YOUR sperm baby ok ???

That's great BUT!!!!! It takes two for this to happen, did you not get the instruction BOOKLET?? It clearly states that in order to have sex (sticky penis in her body ) the female ALSO decides this is going to happen, unless it's rape.

Hillarious post tho!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
So if I enter your house when you invite me you can kill me because your choice to murder me is greater than my life?

My HOUSE is not my BODY. If you enter my body (as a fetus is FULLY INSIDE the body), then yes, I would take you out without a second's thought. This is MY body. My person. MY choice.

If men got pregnant, this discussion would NEVER come up. And if it did, I'd defend the men completely. I will never understand how men think that this subject is ANY of their business. People who think they have a right to another person's body (and want the GOVERNMENT to get involved) are a scourge on this country and really make me sick.

When you vote that the government should make decisions about the medical surgeries and practices that YOU choose, then I'll give you some credit. Until then, you're just putting your nose in where it doesn't belong.

As regards the terms "pro-choice" and "pro-abortion"... I am pro-choice. I would not choose an abortion for myself (even in the case of rape or incest), but I understand the concepts of true freedom and choice. I don't just pay it lip service, like some people here.

You're against women having the choice. You're anti-choice. You want the government to dictate control over a woman's body... Good luck with that. But don't expect that calling people 'murderers' and all this other emotional garbage is going to change a thing.

Women will NOT be controlled by control-freak men again.

It's too late to try to regain that position over women. This is 2011. Welcome to the present.

reply to post by meeneecat

 

Excellent!

Originally posted by meeneecat
A) Why are some people so concerned about other people's personal lives.
B) Why are so many so-called "small government" people advocating BIG government policy for abortion (i.e. forced medically unnecessary ultrasounds, mandated government written scripts that doctors must read which & also medically inaccurate, gov't mandated "waiting periods", etc.)

People who spout "Freedom and Rights", while denying rights to the people with which they disagree are hypocrites of the highest order. There are MANY of these on both sides of the political aisle.

NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO DECIDE FOR THE WOMAN !!
MAN = MAN and WOMAN = WOMAN
EACH BODY IS JUST FREE TO DO WHATEVER TO KEEP IT "ALL RIGHT" !!!
if man do not want to be responsible for their sperm they did put with their sticky fingers into the woman, with love ( or like animals -- or with rape ), they also have no right at all to decide in the woman's place to keep or not the baby ... !!!!!

IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND ???

WHAT IQ DO YOU HAVE

TO HAVE BEFORE UNDERSTANDING THIS

???

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
A fetus, especially in the first trimester when the vast majority of abortions are performed, are apart of a woman's body whether people like that or not. To be blunt about it: if that fetus is not viable on its own, then it is really little more than a parasite.

edit on 5-9-2011 by AnIntellectualRedneck because: (no reason given)

You you take a new born and place it in a room and never come back it will die. Born babies are completely dependent on the care of someone else to live.The only difference between a born child and an unborn is that it is dependent upon on one specific person.

What about before the invention of formula? Even after birth, a baby was still dependent upon its mother as it sole form of nourishment through breast milk.

Originally posted by Wookiep
Originally posted by Sunlionspirit

you do not have to put your sticky penis into her body and your sticky fingers into her womb and decide what she has to do with YOUR sperm baby ok ???

That's great BUT!!!!! It takes two for this to happen, did you not get the instruction BOOKLET?? It clearly states that in order to have sex (sticky penis in her body

) the female ALSO decides this is going to happen, unless it's rape.

Hillarious post tho!

edit on 6-9-2011 by Wookiep because: ETA emotes

yes you are two when making love but here it's not about making love in 90 % of the cases !!!!!
it's about abortion, which means for 90 % rape and incest etc ...
this discussion is about abortion, and do you really think we speak about abortion in situations when the two are really loving each other ??? no, we speak about abortion in case of rape and incest or whatever, so what, if you LOVE your woman, no problem with a child, but in case of rape and incest etc ... what does the rapist or the devilish father has to decide about the woman's choice ??? or what do we, poor public, have to decide for her ???? understand ??? do not mix the whole discussion !!

Originally posted by Kitilani

Originally posted by The Old American
Dunno what was so funny about it, but it won't be a killin, it will be tens of thousands, actually. OMGLOL!!111


A husband finds out that his wife is pregnant by another man. He beats her soundly, and the fetus dies. This was a premeditated act. It's in the first trimester. He is successfully convicted of murder.

A woman finds out she is pregnant and doesn't want to be. She has not been raped, there is no reasonable cause to think there won't be a successful birth of a healthy child. It's in the first trimester. She aborts the fetus. This was a premeditated act. She is held up as a shining example of women being able to do what they want with their bodies.

Human babies are used every day as political tools. And the people that use them that way are also tools.

/TOA

Your thought experiment fails in reality. How about you provide a real case. Names, dates, etc to go along with your point so we can see just how logical it really is in the real world to compare a woman volunteering for a procedure to her being involuntarily assaulted by someone else.

Unless you can put some real world facts behind it, it is worthless. Can you?

A real case? How about a few?

First, the feticide laws of all 50 states:

Fetal Homicide Laws

Here's Laci and Connor's Law:

Laci and Connor's Law

Other fantastical and couldn't ever happen in reality situations:

COMMENTARY: Fetal Homicide Laws & Legal Abortion - The Common Denominator

People v. Taylor

It got tiring doing your research for you. Google will help you with the rest of them. But I'll provide you with a couple of names to search for:

Rae Caruth
Corinne Wilcott

Fails in reality? Volunteering for a procedure? A procedure. Removing a wart is a procedure. Having a tooth extracted is a procedure.

So, if a fetus is just a mass of tissue according to pro-choice, "I can do whatever I want with my body" people, not a human, or a person, until "it" has traveled out of the womb and taken "its" first breath, how can it be murder if it's premeditated, but not murder if it's premeditated? Or, wait, it isn't if it's premeditated but...wait...sorry the politics of when it's OK to murder a child and when not OK to murder a child are really confusing!

/TOA

reply to post by Wookiep


Sadly that is true, we women are the ones that holds the power of procreation, we can create life in our bodies, yes it takes two to tangle, but the reality of the issue is that we the female of the species have the power to control what goes into our bodies and what doesn't Unless is rape.

Unless is a forced rape or for other reason in which the women have lost the ability to consent, if we keep our legs closed pregnancy will not happen without protection.

I am just been honest, here.

Wow, i'm reading alot of people making silly assumptions here

Listen, let me put it straight
I AM NOT RELIGIOUS, I was born in a hindu family but I am an agnostic.

I was religious when I was 14-15 for about 2yrs only
then I was undecided

now I am an agnostic and have been for over 15yrs

some of you are making such silly assumptions thinking if someone is against abortion he MUST be bible thumper, that is so ridiculous.

Look at me, do you see me making any assumptions that many of you pro-abortionists screaming "Don't force your morals on me" or "it's none of your business" are liberals and are hypocritical saying don't force your morals on me or mind your own business when you might force others to pay tax for the entitlement system and scream "It's your responsibility to ensure everyone has health care and a roof over their head?".

No i'm not making assumptions, perhaps none of you should either

thank you

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by The Old American

 

A husband finds out that his wife is pregnant by another man. He beats her soundly, and the fetus dies. This was a premeditated act. It's in the first trimester. He is successfully convicted of murder.

Actually, no. In about half of US states, he would only be convicted of an assault on the woman.

Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws. The states include: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. At least 21 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk (*).

Fetal Homicide State Laws

38 is more than half, so only 12 would be assault. My point still stands as it's murder in the other 38.

/TOA

reply to post by The Old American

Fetal Homicide State Laws

38 is more than half.

But out of these 38, around one third applies only to later stages of pregnancy (which I agree with). That makes it about half for first trimester.

Originally posted by The Old American

Originally posted by Kitilani

Originally posted by The Old American
Dunno what was so funny about it, but it won't be a killin, it will be tens of thousands, actually. OMGLOL!!111


A husband finds out that his wife is pregnant by another man. He beats her soundly, and the fetus dies. This was a premeditated act. It's in the first trimester. He is successfully convicted of murder.

A woman finds out she is pregnant and doesn't want to be. She has not been raped, there is no reasonable cause to think there won't be a successful birth of a healthy child. It's in the first trimester. She aborts the fetus. This was a premeditated act. She is held up as a shining example of women being able to do what they want with their bodies.

Human babies are used every day as political tools. And the people that use them that way are also tools.

/TOA

Your thought experiment fails in reality. How about you provide a real case. Names, dates, etc to go along with your point so we can see just how logical it really is in the real world to compare a woman volunteering for a procedure to her being involuntarily assaulted by someone else.

Unless you can put some real world facts behind it, it is worthless. Can you?

A real case? How about a few?

First, the feticide laws of all 50 states:

Fetal Homicide Laws

Here's Laci and Connor's Law:

Laci and Connor's Law

Other fantastical and couldn't ever happen in reality situations:

COMMENTARY: Fetal Homicide Laws & Legal Abortion - The Common Denominator

People v. Taylor

It got tiring doing your research for you. Google will help you with the rest of them. But I'll provide you with a couple of names to search for:

Rae Caruth
Corinne Wilcott

Fails in reality? Volunteering for a procedure? A procedure. Removing a wart is a procedure. Having a tooth extracted is a procedure.

So, if a fetus is just a mass of tissue according to pro-choice, "I can do whatever I want with my body" people, not a human, or a person, until "it" has traveled out of the womb and taken "its" first breath, how can it be murder if it's premeditated, but not murder if it's premeditated? Or, wait, it isn't if it's premeditated but...wait...sorry the politics of when it's OK to murder a child and when not OK to murder a child are really confusing!

/TOA

the old american is effectively an old MAN of course, a MAN with a omnipotent penis .....( hahahaha ) .......
a man wanting to decide himself like a dictator what a woman has to do with HER body ...
a man with a stupid penis wanting to penetrate each women's body but NEVER take responsability for the outcome !!!
a macho ( this is NOT personnal !!! ) playing with his instrument but never wanting to hear the noise it is making afterwards .... not listening to the woman's cry, not listening to the woman's despair .....
bullsh**t, you have NO RIGHT AT ALL TO JUDGE A WOMAN OR TO DECIDE IN HER PLACE ABOUT ABORTION !!
the embryo is the fruit in HER body, the sperm of the man not taking his responsability with her ovule, it's NOT a person.
It should be normally the fruit of LOVE but here it is the fruit of evil in cases of abortion !!! ( rape/incest etc !! ).

Anti-abortionist and pro-male fetus righters are weird.

Do you people really think it's acceptable to kidnap women and throw them in cages simply because they get a medical procedure?

Being anti-abortion is also being anti-self ownership.

reply to post by Sunlionspirit


Actually, I disagree again. I'm sorry, I don't have the numbers in front of me but I'll make a LARGE bet that most abortions aren't a result of rape and incest. I think someone earlier said only something like 5% are in that category. I'm also not mixing the discussion, I'm right on topic.

Originally posted by Sunlionspirit

the old american is effectively an old MAN of course, a MAN with a omnipotent penis .....( hahahaha ) .......
a man wanting to decide himself like a dictator what a woman has to do with HER body ...
a man with a stupid penis wanting to penetrate each women's body but NEVER take responsability for the outcome !!!
a macho ( this is NOT personnal !!! ) playing with his instrument but never wanting to hear the noise it is making afterwards .... not listening to the woman's cry, not listening to the woman's despair .....
bullsh**t, you have NO RIGHT AT ALL TO JUDGE A WOMAN OR TO DECIDE IN HER PLACE ABOUT ABORTION !!

the embryo is the fruit in HER body, the sperm of the man not taking his responsability with her ovule, it's NOT a person.
It should be normally the fruit of LOVE but here it is the fruit of evil in cases of abortion !!! ( rape/incest etc !! ).

You could benefit from RIF.

My posts were about the double standard that exists. My examples are true, real world examples of people being tried and convicted of murdering a child, yet when the issue is abortion, it suddenly isn't a child anymore, it's a mass of tissue.

One my examples, BTW, was about a woman convicted of murder because of this double standard.

Human children are used as political tools and it sickens me, as it should any rational person.

So, your rambling, pointless diatribe wasn't clear. Maybe you can tell us whether you are for the double standard or against it?

/TOA

Originally posted by Wookiep
reply to post by Sunlionspirit

 

Actually, I disagree again. I'm sorry, I don't have the numbers in front of me but I'll make a LARGE bet that most abortions aren't a result of rape and incest. I think someone earlier said only something like 5% are in that category. I'm also not mixing the discussion, I'm right on topic.

listen, it's not difficult at all man ....
if a man makes love to a woman, I mean really LOVE ok, they agree to make love, then the man has to be aware that the woman could get pregnant ok ??? the woman also of course has to be aware ......
if there is a child, well he then also has to take responsability for the child no ??? ..
if he is too cowardly to accept the baby, why would he want to decide for the woman to keep it if she doesn't want it ??? He does not want it and she should keep it ???? hahahahahaha !!! really nice logic here !!
and in case of rape and incest, why would the rapist decide for the woman ?? why would the father decide for his daughter ??? why should we decide for the woman ??

I keep hearing woman, womans choice, womans body.....WOMAN, WOMAN, WOMAN....Ok I think we ALL GET IT.

I would like to hear about the FETUS's choice.....when does it have a voice to decide?

Anyone want to argue "life" is when...or life is when..????

Reality is.....If it grows....it is ALIVE. It is alive however it is still in development as it is when it is born and every day life is given...it grows. So....my question is...

Does a woman have the right to call the shots of her unborn? If so.... what about the woman who kill's her 5 year old. They do have a voice now...but is it not the womans choice to decide whether or not she should allow the child to live if it is hampering her life? She lost her job, she can't afford the kid....so is it still ok to kill the kid? If not....please explain why.

If she is raped and has the kid but later decides to kill it..is that ok too? If not, why?

Is it only ok to kill the unborn because one cannot see the "life" in it?

Is it only ok to kill if it doesn't speak to say IM ALIVE?

It is alive when it can ______________??

I debated this issue when I was in High School and it is a touchy one!

Anytime a child is involved there will always be someone speaking for the child who cannot be heard. One can get mad all day long....it still is a "good" thing people do speak up for our children.

And lastly, why in the world does some people have to play the "religious" hand? Can a person not care for the child and not be labeled as anything but a caring person?

Some of the replys on here are just reaching! Get over the religious card....please!

Originally posted by The Old American

Originally posted by Sunlionspirit

the old american is effectively an old MAN of course, a MAN with a omnipotent penis .....( hahahaha ) .......
a man wanting to decide himself like a dictator what a woman has to do with HER body ...
a man with a stupid penis wanting to penetrate each women's body but NEVER take responsability for the outcome !!!
a macho ( this is NOT personnal !!! ) playing with his instrument but never wanting to hear the noise it is making afterwards .... not listening to the woman's cry, not listening to the woman's despair .....
bullsh**t, you have NO RIGHT AT ALL TO JUDGE A WOMAN OR TO DECIDE IN HER PLACE ABOUT ABORTION !!

the embryo is the fruit in HER body, the sperm of the man not taking his responsability with her ovule, it's NOT a person.
It should be normally the fruit of LOVE but here it is the fruit of evil in cases of abortion !!! ( rape/incest etc !! ).

You could benefit from RIF.

My posts were about the double standard that exists. My examples are true, real world examples of people being tried and convicted of murdering a child, yet when the issue is abortion, it suddenly isn't a child anymore, it's a mass of tissue.

One my examples, BTW, was about a woman convicted of murder because of this double standard.

Human children are used as political tools and it sickens me, as it should any rational person.

So, your rambling, pointless diatribe wasn't clear. Maybe you can tell us whether you are for the double standard or against it?

/TOA

I am against the fact that other people decide for the woman !! if she really wants a abortion, tissue or not, it has to be that way, it must be possible in the best way as possible !! this is not a question of tissue, it is a question of HEALTH, the woman's health, physical and emotional and psychological !!!! her tissue, her body is 300 % more important than the tissue of the embryo or not maybe ????
tell me, you do not like woman's body tissue ???

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

If you enter my body (as a fetus is FULLY INSIDE the body), then yes, I would take you out without a second's thought. This is MY body. My person. MY choice.

A fetus does not make the choice to enter your body. YOU did that. A fetus is a separate entity from the mother. The fact that you not only think you are somehow being victimized just because your child relies on you for sustenance, but also think it should be up to you whether your child will live or die is downright sickening.

I will never understand how men think that this subject is ANY of their business.

I know far more pro-life women than men....and it IS their business. It's THEIR child whose life you dictate. A fetus is just as much the child of the father as it is the mother. I was not any less my father's daughter as a fetus than I am now.

People who think they have a right to another person's body (and want the GOVERNMENT to get involved) are a scourge on this country and really make me sick.

The issue has nothing to do with your body. It's about the fetus and the right to life. How can someone be so narcissistic as to think their desire to be free from responsibility should take precedence over anyone else's life? THAT makes me sick.

Your attitude is the same as someone saying "I may own slaves if I choose to, but don't push your morality on me".

As regards the terms "pro-choice" and "pro-abortion"... I am pro-choice. I would not choose an abortion for myself (even in the case of rape or incest), but I understand the concepts of true freedom and choice. I don't just pay it lip service, like some people here.

Millions of innocent lives lost is not my idea of freedom...nor should taking an innocent life be a legal choice. Not wanting to kill your child but not caring if your neighbors' children are killed is pretty twisted.

You're against women having the choice. You're anti-choice

....that choice being taking the life of your child. You're anti-responsibility. What you don't seem to understand is that for choices you make, there are consequences...consequences that can't always be simply 'killed off'.

You want the government to dictate control over a woman's body

A pregnant woman is in the position she is in because of the choices she made. The government did not force her to spread her legs and conceive a child. Your rhetoric about how the government protecting the lives of the unborn is somehow victimizing and controlling women is pure lunacy. YOU'RE the one who blatantly says that you should have control over the life of another human being. If your mother is pro-choice, it's safe to say that you're a survivor of abortion.

Women will NOT be controlled by control-freak men again.

It's too late to try to regain that position over women. This is 2011. Welcome to the present.

Give me a break. THIS is what is pure emotional rhetoric....rhetoric that only gullible feminists could fall for.