A fair fight?

It is not until midway through your post that you make clear you refer to the war in Iraq. Unfortunately, those doing the beheadings, kidnappings and killings in Iraq do so in response to being attacked.

Try reading all the thread. I had mentioned that the militants in Iraq are not al puka, however, they are in the same mindset. The beheadings are at the forfront right now as far as the media is concerned and that is all you hear about. It is a known fact however that a large majority af thier "Freedom Fighters" are not even Iraqi. I believe a large portion of them are from Yemen, and Iran. Probably a few from our wonderful Saudi friends as well.




[edit on 24-8-2004 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by Aelita
so you got emotional. Good. Maybe you'll be a tiny bit more susceptible to the plight of a poor Muslim woman who had the bad luck of being married to some gunman from the Sadr militia, who you propose to drag out in the street and rape and/or behead, to instill awe in the Sadr's men.

As for you being old enough to be my father, I'm 40, and in any case I'm glad I don't have a father like you. Peace.

Oh, Im sorry. You ARE OLDER than me. Im 32. And further more, quit sticking words in my mouth. I said NOTHING of rape. What is your problem? Menapause setting in? By the way, some of those "Poor muslim women" you so affectionatly refer to are strapping bomb vest on. And last, I dont want to instill awe in anyone. I want to instill FEAR. This is the last time im saying this to you. We have tried to be nice and it doesnt work. IMO it is time to play dirty. By the way, are you a supporter af al puka or what? You sound as if you are trying to defend them.

Can't kill roaches by acting like them, and can't beat terrorists by acting like them. We've got to be the foot, not the bug. I would hope we couldn't find any military personnel willing to kidnap and behead non-combatants in order to make their insurgent relatives fall in line. I feel the fight against these militant fundamentalist jihadist terrorists is very important to the future survival of more than just the West. However, having said that, I don't see how we can possibly win as a democracy. We don't have the staying power due to term limits and the possibility that a new president will pull the plug on it. If we go to a defensive posture, we're just letting it happen and reacting to it rather than trying to put a stop to it. They can't be dealt with, reasoned with or effectively bargained with. There won't be any peace treaties with bin Laden and his ilk. There won't be a turnaround on generations of hatred with a series of relatively short military actions. The Iraqi soccer team can come home from the Olympics and not face torture and death for their performance, but the coallition will still be the Bad Guys to much of the world. The West can not win in the East by using the means we have at our disposal now. We also cannot give up the humanity and civility we've evolved into in order to fight them on what we consider barbaric terms. We either figure out a new way to fight for a fast resolution or work our way into a new understanding with them while taking a defensive posture so that future generations won't be fueled by the hatred of us that the current combatants are running on.

Can we protect ourselves while working to improve relations into the next few generations? Can we win by force? The methods we have at our disposal right now are not sufficient for this type of conflict. Two very different mindsets, different religious outlooks, different codes of behavior. Mirroring terrorist methods will make things worse, I think.

I think infiltration and intelligence are the key. If you can learn the local language, slang and it's culture then you can plant informants and have people on the ground.

By planting guys into their various groups and cells they can then work their way up and spread misinformation to them. By keeping tabs on them you can gather better quality intelligence and know their exact movements.

Through infiltration you could try and splinter each group by somehow causing disagreements between them and let them fight each other.

Another way is to create fake 'terrorists cells' then advertise and spread the word through the terrorists keeping tabs on them and also building links with the target cells and groups.

That way you can target the various operators of those and assassinate them through car bombs, or other bomb rigged equipment. Then you could blame the assassinations on other groups.

Supply them with weapons that are 'very cheap' that are actually duds, or even rigged to explode when used.

Those are just some of the ideas that have come to mind.

Even though we are meant to have civilized societies where we don't execute people or do other stuff that the terroists have done, you have to be hardline when dealing with people who can't be bargained with, who live and die by the sword and who won't stop at nothing until they die.

I don't believe in kidnapping their family members, beheading them or anything like that but you could MAKE the terrorists think that by recording things from their family, show footage of their family at gunpoint or something when that isn't the case, i don't know use actors or something.

When dealing with this kind of threat you have to come up with new things in order to survive.

Agreed, a new way is vital. But the first time they realize we're scamming them with fake video or we don't actually go through with a beheading, they'll know they've got us and it instantly becomes not only an ineffective tool but a boost for them showing we don't have the balls for their way of doing things. The other problem is that so many of them rely on family. I read several years ago where they wouldn't send messages from one fighting group to another by way of anyone other than a family member. It's a tough place for the West to infiltrate. I can't help but wonder how many deep-cover people are dead since we started in Iraq, but we'll probably never know. Or how many were sniffed out quickly and exterminated horribly.

No way it can ever be a truly "fair" fight. We've got to be more devious than they are if we're to do it. I can't help but think of my favorite book of all time, The Godfather. If only we had the Don and Genco Abbandando instead of Bush and Rumsfeld! *L*

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Will sombody please tell me why we (USA) cant fight this war on terror using the same methods that those extremeist use? why cant we terrorise them?

A little tit for tat, huh? Well, that's a mature way of looking at it. Until Rumsfeld came back into power, we in the U.S. military were taught to adhere to the RULES of WAR. It served us well, too, btw. What happens when you start behaving as atrociously as your degenerate mind can think of? When you are captured, my friend, you are treated 10 times worse. Do not even begin to assume you know better than established doctrine. You're biting off WAY more than you can chew.

Im of the opinion that we know who these main terrorist are, so why dont we kidnapp some of thier family members and start lopping off heads?

If you really believe this, you are no better than "they" are; and you and yours deserve the same.

Is it that we just dont have the stomach for this fight? Are we just so complacent in our dialy grind that we will continue to allow these attacks and kidnappings to continue unpunished?

Boy, do I have a position for you. Point man, Fallujah.

IMO its time to roll up the sleaves and start getting our hands dirty! Give me the sword and Ill be the first to swing it!!!!!

It sure is easy to be an armchair soldier. If you havn't already, will you promise to go join? Sounds to me like you need a baptism of fire in the worst way. Nothing like seeing your buddy's head or your own leg blown off to recalibrate a seriously misguided mind.

As a veteran, this type of ignorant horseshyte pisses me off more than just about anything.

[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

East Coast Kid i'm sorry for the experiences you've through in war, hopefully you've carried on with your life and made the best of it.

Don't you agree that intelligence is the key? That we need to infiltrate, learning the language, slang and culture. We need to know where the terrorists hang out besides the Mosque, planting bugs on them or even tracking devices anything that would help us find them.

What about creating fake terrorist cells? Forming links with the real ones and undermining them. I know this would be very hard but i think it can be done. If conventional means aren't enough then new methods are required.

Is there a way you can be just as ruthless and put fear into the terrorists without becoming one?

Originally posted by Flyboy211
East Coast Kid i'm sorry for the experiences you've through in war, hopefully you've carried on with your life and made the best of it.

No worries, Flyboy. I 'preciate the kind words, though. My experience during the Gulf War was the most profound thing I've ever gone through. It's schooled me in ways I couldn't even have imagined back then. I'm just glad I was so young, dumb and gung-ho. I never questioned any of it or my leadership. I was 150% behind it.

Don't you agree that intelligence is the key? That we need to infiltrate, learning the language, slang and culture. We need to know where the terrorists hang out besides the Mosque, planting bugs on them or even tracking devices anything that would help us find them.

Human intelligence (HUMINT) is very important. But also very difficult in that part of the world. There are so few who speak the language, know the slang and can even begin to understand the culture, it's unreal. It's such a different culture, to most it's beyond imagining. Most who understand it will tell you, they are some of the most kind and hospitable people in the world. If you cross them, though; fuhgeddabouddit! Our arrogance, non-understanding and brutality has gone so far ahead of us to hurt any chance of making a true peace with them, I don't know if we can ever rectify things with the people of Iraq. It's a killer. As far as getting close enough to bug them or whatever, it's a deadly and near-impossible task. Besides, what most refuse to believe or accept, is that the vast majority of those "terrorists" are nothing more than what we would consider to be freedom fighters; everyday Iraqis who want nothing more than to see the US occupation end. If the US was invaded, you know we'd fight like hell to the death, too, to drive the occupier out.

What about creating fake terrorist cells? Forming links with the real ones and undermining them.

We've been doing this for a very long time. It was actually an FBI informant that was the instigator of the first World Trade Center bombing. You're not gonna ever hear that on your nightly news channel. The thing that drives me nuts about iraq, is so much of that has gone on, at this point it's simply impossible to say who is doing what. These folks in charge of our forces have made such a bloody mess of the whole thing, it's insane. I really feel for our troops over there. Seriously. It grieves me to know what they're facing day in and day out.

Is there a way you can be just as ruthless and put fear into the terrorists without becoming one?

I like to think of doing one's job in the military as being EFFECTIVE, not RUTHLESS. Ruthless implies passion. Passion gets folks killed. The most effective warriors are methodical and dispassionate.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
What is your problem? Menapause setting in?

So, punk, you feel macho today? Or sexist, or both?

I learned to handle the AK-47 when you started
you grammar school (well maybe you never did),
and I did moutain resque missions when you
you were finishing your high. So save me your
pathetic sperm count routine.

So all in all, my problem is not the menopause which
I will never have. My problem is with armchair sadists
like you.

By the way, are you a supporter af al puka or what? You sound as if you are trying to defend them.

I don't know who those "al pukas" are.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Will sombody please tell me why we (USA) cant fight this war on terror using the same methods that those extremeist use? why cant we terrorise them?

A little tit for tat, huh? Well, that's a mature way of looking at it.

Until Rumsfeld came back into power, we in the U.S. military were taught to adhere to the RULES of WAR. It served us well, too, btw. What happens when you start behaving as atrociously as your degenerate mind can think of? When you are captured, my friend, you are treated 10 times worse. Do not even begin to assume you know better than established doctrine. You're biting off WAY more than you can chew.

Im of the opinion that we know who these main terrorist are, so why dont we kidnapp some of thier family members and start lopping off heads?

If you really believe this, you are no better than "they" are; and you and yours deserve the same.

Is it that we just dont have the stomach for this fight? Are we just so complacent in our dialy grind that we will continue to allow these attacks and kidnappings to continue unpunished?

Boy, do I have a position for you. Point man, Fallujah.

IMO its time to roll up the sleaves and start getting our hands dirty! Give me the sword and Ill be the first to swing it!!!!!

It sure is easy to be an armchair soldier. If you havn't already, will you promise to go join? Sounds to me like you need a baptism of fire in the worst way. Nothing like seeing your buddy's head or your own leg blown off to recalibrate a seriously misguided mind.

As a veteran, this type of ignorant horseshyte pisses me off more than just about anything.

[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Just a few things for you. First off, I tried to go active duty after 911, but since Im 32 and a sngl parent, they said no.(29 at the time)

Secondly I am a vetran as well. I spent 90 - 94 defending our country. Oh my goodness, I was in Desert Storm so you can kiss my as about being an armchair soldier. I would gladly take point in Afganistan mountians. So unless
you have a clue what your talking about, and WHO your talking about, the general rule of thumb is dont talk at all.

Now for the rest of your diatrab.The rules of engagement dont work for this fight. Yes, I am suggesting that we use the same tactics as them. Are we better for doing so? At this point I dont care. I want to do whatever it takes to end this NOW! The middle eastern countries have been at war for centuries. Is that where you want us to be?

We won't be at war for centuries because every 4 years we have a chance to have a change of power that could halt our involvement at any time. The M.E. countries have the same rulers for decades at a time, so there's no question about their longevity... unless someone comes in and erases them and their sons as has happened in Iraq.

How do you propose to get intelligence on the ground over there? Anyone new will be under suspicion. Anyone already there can turn and then turn again, leaving us in a bad position info-wise. Tough nut to crack, and they've made it that way intentionally to prevent each other from going in after them. I doubt even the Iraqis could get their own intel to infiltrate the various terrorist organizations, and they're natives who already know the culture, slang and language. It seems you'd almost have to turn their own families against them to use for this purpose, and I can't see that happening on any kind of useful scale.

ECK... you've looked them in the eye. Would it be easier or harder now that Saddam and Sons are gone?

Yeah right Kidfinger. Your ignorance and racism speaks for itself. The only way they wouldn't have taken you back is if you had been kicked out for drugs, fat as hell or on permanent profile. So which is it?

Originally posted by Aelita

Originally posted by Kidfinger
What is your problem? Menapause setting in?

So, punk, you feel macho today? Or sexist, or both?

I learned to handle the AK-47 when you started
you grammar school (well maybe you never did),
and I did moutain resque missions when you
you were finishing your high. So save me your
pathetic sperm count routine.

So all in all, my problem is not the menopause which
I will never have. My problem is with armchair sadists
like you.

By the way, are you a supporter af al puka or what? You sound as if you are trying to defend them.

I don't know who those "al pukas" are.

Your not even worth answering anymore.

Kidfinger:

A fair fight?

Will sombody please tell me why we (USA) cant fight this war on terror using the same methods that those extremeist use? why cant we terrorise them?(my spelling is attrocious, I know) Im of the opinion that we know who these main terrorist are, so why dont we kidnapp some of thier family members and start lopping off heads? Is it that we just dont have the stomach for this fight? Are we just so complacent in our dialy grind that we will continue to allow these attacks and kidnappings to continue unpunished?

IMO its time to roll up the sleaves and start getting our hands dirty! Give me the sword and Ill be the first to swing it!!!!!

IMO you're actually a terrorist. A murderous, racist, lawless American terrorist undeserving of the freedom you currently take advantage of in the US.

American society would do well to throw hateful, maniacal people like you in jail and throw away the key.

And say what you want, take it as a personal attack, but you yourself say

"why cant we terrorise them?"

"Im of the opinion that we know who these main terrorist are, so why dont we kidnapp some of thier family members and start lopping off heads?"

Seek professional help.


And get a dictionary while you're at it, if you're 32 you should be spelling better. Learn what an apostrophe is.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Yeah right Kidfinger. Your ignorance and racism speaks for itself. The only way they wouldn't have taken you back is if you had been kicked out for drugs, fat as hell or on permanent profile. So which is it?

If you have actually been in the service as you say, you would know that you can NOT reinlist if you are a single parent, Which I am. But you already knew the reinlistment policy didnt you.

More reasons than you listed. Please, if you are going to state a fact, get it right.
As for the drugs comment, it sounds like you are the one on drugs. Add to this with an opinion an the topic, or just quit adding. Schmuck.

Too bad about all the name calling and chest thumping because this was an interesting thread. I've heard this question asked many times in conversations with people since the war began. Can we get on track to it?


My other thing is... to fight like them, we'd also have to do suicide bombings. I don't know any branch of military that would volunteer for this kind of mission. It's not a practical way of handling the current fight.

I agree about intel being critical, but don't see how we could really effectively do it.

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Yeah right Kidfinger. Your ignorance and racism speaks for itself. The only way they wouldn't have taken you back is if you had been kicked out for drugs, fat as hell or on permanent profile. So which is it?

If you have actually been in the service as you say, you would know that you can NOT reinlist if you are a single parent, Which I am. But you already knew the reinlistment policy didnt you.

More reasons than you listed. Please, if you are going to state a fact, get it right.
As for the drugs comment, it sounds like you are the one on drugs. Add to this with an opinion an the topic, or just quit adding. Schmuck.

And we wonder why nothing is getting done...

First of all, you should both be ashamed of yourselves. It is this peripheral style of thinking that is getting us nowhere. You both stay so fucused on the small details (which is relevant) but your prides blind you from the more significant "bigger picture".

People do not blow themsleves up for 72 virgins. That is a misconception, and even worse a sharpened tool of negative propaganda that dulls our compassion for the innocent people, or "collateral damage" we are inflicting.

Imagine a perspective where an occupying force has entered your land and brought with it 150,000 soldiers. At best you have a force of 20,000 supporters who do not have 1% of the artilery or technology your opponent has. What option is there but to strap bombs to yourself and inflict as much damage as possible. Is it right? That is debatable.

What needs to be examined is the ROOT of the conflict, the ROOT of these animocities. To imply that the radical extremists simply hate us because of our "lifestyles" is a serious misrepresentation and underestimation of the types of people we are at war with.

I feel that it is our realistic intentions as to why we are in Iraq that infuriates the radicals. We have not been honest to them. To not be honest, and have a history of not being honest, one can assume that their trust for us is not what we would like it to be.

Just a thought...

Originally posted by LukeNYC

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Yeah right Kidfinger. Your ignorance and racism speaks for itself. The only way they wouldn't have taken you back is if you had been kicked out for drugs, fat as hell or on permanent profile. So which is it?

If you have actually been in the service as you say, you would know that you can NOT reinlist if you are a single parent, Which I am. But you already knew the reinlistment policy didnt you.

More reasons than you listed. Please, if you are going to state a fact, get it right.
As for the drugs comment, it sounds like you are the one on drugs. Add to this with an opinion an the topic, or just quit adding. Schmuck.

And we wonder why nothing is getting done...

First of all, you should both be ashamed of yourselves. It is this peripheral style of thinking that is getting us nowhere. You both stay so fucused on the small details (which is relevant) but your prides blind you from the more significant "bigger picture".

People do not blow themsleves up for 72 virgins. That is a misconception, and even worse a sharpened tool of negative propaganda that dulls our compassion for the innocent people, or "collateral damage" we are inflicting.

Imagine a perspective where an occupying force has entered your land and brought with it 150,000 soldiers. At best you have a force of 20,000 supporters who do not have 1% of the artilery or technology your opponent has. What option is there but to strap bombs to yourself and inflict as much damage as possible. Is it right? That is debatable.

What needs to be examined is the ROOT of the conflict, the ROOT of these animocities. To imply that the radical extremists simply hate us because of our "lifestyles" is a serious misrepresentation and underestimation of the types of people we are at war with.

I feel that it is our realistic intentions as to why we are in Iraq that infuriates the radicals. We have not been honest to them. To not be honest, and have a history of not being honest, one can assume that their trust for us is not what we would like it to be.

Just a thought...

Point takenThanks for the rational thought. I suppose sometimes I let myself be drawn into these immature arguments. I guess that this topic is pretty close to home for me, ( Personal reasons ), so it just perturbs me every time I hear that we are winning this war on terrorism, yet I still fail to see any advancment in our personal safety as well as our personal rights.
I feel like the US is becomming more and more like Cuba. Dont get me wrong, I am a PROUD American, I just dont want to see this country that was founded on freedom, to become a tight collar millitary dictatorship.

Originally posted by torque
Too bad about all the name calling and chest thumping because this was an interesting thread. I've heard this question asked many times in conversations with people since the war began. Can we get on track to it?


My other thing is... to fight like them, we'd also have to do suicide bombings. I don't know any branch of military that would volunteer for this kind of mission. It's not a practical way of handling the current fight.

I agree about intel being critical, but don't see how we could really effectively do it.

Sorry about that, Ill try and keep my temper in check when I reply.

You're lucky that you are an American who lives in a democratic, you have measures in place in case a dictator comes into power, power of vote for one!