A fair fight?

Will sombody please tell me why we (USA) cant fight this war on terror using the same methods that those extremeist use? why cant we terrorise them?(my spelling is attrocious, I know) Im of the opinion that we know who these main terrorist are, so why dont we kidnapp some of thier family members and start lopping off heads? Is it that we just dont have the stomach for this fight? Are we just so complacent in our dialy grind that we will continue to allow these attacks and kidnappings to continue unpunished?

IMO its time to roll up the sleaves and start getting our hands dirty! Give me the sword and Ill be the first to swing it!!!!!

I think in the long run we have equaled the actions of those few beheadings. Given that we have slaughtered probably 1000's of both insurgents and civilians alike, I would say thats 'fair' in relation to the tactics used by the opposition. The problem is that if we start lopping off heads and getting dirty about things, were going to loose what little support we have from other nations and find ourselves footing the entire bill, both financially and physically. Plus since we are a civilized nation, we are bound by the Geneva Convention, which prevents us from using less-than-shining tactics such as open torture, kidnapping and murder of non-combatants.

Because we are more civil?

No need to sink to their level.. We have smart bombs!

Really war always brings out the worst on all sides.. It really does not matter how you kill as long as you can find a just reason to kill.. That logic applies to both sides of a conflict.. They cannot fight as we do and we have no ethical reason to fight as they do.

Yet the end result is killing and destruction. It is humanity that suffers not the enemies on either side.

One day man can only hope a path to peace will be found. But for now it seems that this conflict threatens to consume and divide the world.

Gazz

Originally posted by alternateheaven
I think in the long run we have equaled the actions of those few beheadings. Given that we have slaughtered probably 1000's of both insurgents and civilians alike, I would say thats 'fair' in relation to the tactics used by the opposition. The problem is that if we start lopping off heads and getting dirty about things, were going to loose what little support we have from other nations and find ourselves footing the entire bill, both financially and physically. Plus since we are a civilized nation, we are bound by the Geneva Convention, which prevents us from using less-than-shining tactics such as open torture, kidnapping and murder of non-combatants.

In the Long run? Al queda has been blasting embassies and commercial sites for over ten years. As for the support of other countries, the only support I have actually seen is from our spanish and european brothers. Everyone else is either neutral (Pakistan) or they just hate us ( Iran). Also, just because we appear civillized iis no reason to claim it. I am an American. I am PROUD of it, but I would say that our civility has been lost long ago. I respect your arguments on the Geneva Convention. It lays out very respectable rules and I am familliar with it. I was in the NAVY during Desert Storm (90-94). However, I would have to say that we are the only country to ever follow it. Maybe its time we stopped. By the way, thank you for an honest argument

Simple reason is that the greater, broader war is the war between western thinking and muslim extremist thinking. If we were to use their tactics, it would play into the hands of terrorists. No, what we need is better intel, better spying and most of all some friends over in the middle east (which we will have in 10-15 years with Iraq and Afghanistan). This is going to be the longest war the modern world has ever seen, probably lasting several generations. To start lopping off heads now would be like sprinting out of the gate in a marothon - you might get ahead (pun intended) at the start, but in the end you won't win.

I think it may be that we are not monsters in the sense of video taping a beheading of some captor.
I know it goes through the minds of alot of people when they see or hear about it,but when it comes down to it,we are just plain not like those animals that do this.I know people will argue that we still do bad things,but the two get seperated when it comes down to the gore factor.
When you see on TV a bombing of a small city,you think only for a minute how bad it was.When you see someone getting thier head chopped off,it is like watching the worst horror film ever and sticks in your mind.It is more graphic and makes the person(s) seem like more of an animal,inhumane POS

If we started do these things,just think of what they would say about us then.They hate us now,and that would only fuel a fire that is already out of controll.

I was thinking more along the lines of stopping it in its tracks so we dont have a long drawn out 10, 20 or 30 year war. I dont want to be involved in this that long. I would much rather show them that we can be as merciless and unforgiving as they are. Simple logic. If a snake bit a bear, that snake, even if a rattler, dimond back, egyptian asp, ect.. would be clawed, bit and stomped untill dead, and depending on the bear, the snake just might end up a snack. We are animals plain and simple. We drew the long straw in the evolutionary draw and now we talk and think. This doesnt change the fact that we are still nothing more than intelligent animal on his best day. We should stop pretending otherwise. We can resume the facade of bieng quite the galactic superior bieng once we stop this crap from being threatned on our front door. I have a 5 year old daughter and I have to worry about wether Osama binA*SWIPE is going to bomb my local mall, govt building, or something?

They have shown no mercy, and I dont think they deserve any.

I see where you are coming from - but the reality is that killing a bunch of bigname Islamic psycho's isn't going to change the minds of their followers - in fact, it would probably strengthen their resolve. Remember, when they are killed, they are going to get X number of smoking hot virgins to didle for all eternity.

Besides, if we actually knew were any of these high value targets were, they would be behind bars.....

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I see where you are coming from - but the reality is that killing a bunch of bigname Islamic psycho's isn't going to change the minds of their followers - in fact, it would probably strengthen their resolve. Remember, when they are killed, they are going to get X number of smoking hot virgins to didle for all eternity.

Besides, if we actually knew were any of these high value targets were, they would be behind bars.....

I guess if I had 72 Virgins waiting on me, I would be stppin a bomb to my chest too

Seriously though, I know we dont know where all of these High Value targets are, but we know who they are. We also know who thier families are. athis is the part about rolling up the sleaves and getting dirty. Personally, I think if we start taking away thier loved ones in the middle of the night and the next morning, these High Value targets find thier limbless bodies in the road( as they have done to us) then the snake would think twice about biting the bear.

[edit on 22-8-2004 by Kidfinger]

Trust me,I would have no problem getting one of these guys in a small grass field only to beat the living hell out of them.I would love to more than anything.
I even feel that if any are caught,that they should not only be put to death,but in a slow painfull matter.
But if we do such a thing and become as barbaric,it would only have them saying 'told you they are monsters'
We really dont need that at this point.
I do see what you are saying though.I get alot of hate when I see these things and only wish to have the opportunity to get one of them and ring thier neck!

Originally posted by Kidfinger
I respect your arguments on the Geneva Convention. It lays out very respectable rules and I am familliar with it. I was in the NAVY during Desert Storm (90-94). However, I would have to say that we are the only country to ever follow it.

Are you accusing the UK of violating the Geneva Convention?
Maybe youre referring to Poland or Italy or Australia or Spain.

You need to get over this idea that the US is the only one following the Geneva convetion. Most, if not all, European countries adhere to it.

I would be happy to be an extremist neck ringer. Where do I sign up? You may have hit on something. An olympic sport?

Originally posted by KidfingerI would much rather show them that we can be as merciless and unforgiving as they are. Simple logic. If a snake bit a bear, that snake, even if a rattler, dimond back, egyptian asp, ect.. would be clawed, bit and stomped untill dead, and depending on the bear, the snake just might end up a snack.

The US has already shown them that.
The US just uses different methods.
Rather than beheading someone, they drop 2000 pound bombs on them.
You may not feel that dropping bombs on someone is merciless but the people on the ground who are missing limbs may disagree.

Originally posted by AceOfBase

Originally posted by Kidfinger
I respect your arguments on the Geneva Convention. It lays out very respectable rules and I am familliar with it. I was in the NAVY during Desert Storm (90-94). However, I would have to say that we are the only country to ever follow it.

Are you accusing the UK of violating the Geneva Convention?
Maybe youre referring to Poland or Italy or Australia or Spain.

You need to get over this idea that the US is the only one following the Geneva convetion. Most, if not all, European countries adhere to it.

Im sorry if you misunderstood me. If you had read all of the post, I also reffered to you as an ally in this. It is just my self centered american mind set(yes, I admit it, can you?)to say America when I speak of us as well as all our allies in this. My apalogies.

Originally posted by AceOfBase

Originally posted by KidfingerI would much rather show them that we can be as merciless and unforgiving as they are. Simple logic. If a snake bit a bear, that snake, even if a rattler, dimond back, egyptian asp, ect.. would be clawed, bit and stomped untill dead, and depending on the bear, the snake just might end up a snack.

The US has already shown them that.
The US just uses different methods.
Rather than beheading someone, they drop 2000 pound bombs on them.
You may not feel that dropping bombs on someone is merciless but the people on the ground who are missing limbs may disagree.

I dont think we should be dropping any bombs on them at all. This is my whole point. Dropping bombs makes it impersonal. Its distant. I want to make it personal. All I hear is dont stoop to thier level, but so far that hasnt worked. Maybe its time we play this game thier way agianst them.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
I dont think we should be dropping any bombs on them at all. This is my whole point. Dropping bombs makes it impersonal. Its distant. I want to make it personal. All I hear is dont stoop to thier level, but so far that hasnt worked. Maybe its time we play this game thier way agianst them.

Fair enough.
The coalition casualties will be much higher in that type of warfare though.

this is perhaps the most one sided war in the history of the world. didnt you see the lgb vs terror vidoe? for every one beheading; we have commited a midnight bombing with casualties in the thousands. this is not a war, this is a kid over an ant hill with a magnifying glass in one hand an a firecracker in the other.

Hate breeds hate. Those Jihad ridden folk hate us because of our lifestyle and then attack us cowardly, of course we will hate back with our technology; the very thing they hate most.

I agree with the impersonal note, I would greatly wish for the combat to revert to soldier to soldier single combat, both side line up and fight a honorable war, face to face not cave to cockpit.

We need to hold on and ride this peace craise out.

Originally posted by sturod84
this is not a war, this is a kid over an ant hill with a magnifying glass in one hand an a firecracker in the other.

That may be true, but those are the biggest ants ever, and they bite back. And actually, it would be more like putting an m-80 in an ant hill for your analigy. Something I dont think you understand is that when you put a m-80 in an ant hill, they(ants just build another ant hill. you have to KILL ALL THE ANTS to get rid of them!!!!

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by AceOfBase

Originally posted by Kidfinger
I respect your arguments on the Geneva Convention. It lays out very respectable rules and I am familliar with it. I was in the NAVY during Desert Storm (90-94). However, I would have to say that we are the only country to ever follow it.

Are you accusing the UK of violating the Geneva Convention?
Maybe youre referring to Poland or Italy or Australia or Spain.

You need to get over this idea that the US is the only one following the Geneva convetion. Most, if not all, European countries adhere to it.

Im sorry if you misunderstood me. If you had read all of the post, I also reffered to you as an ally in this. It is just my self centered american mind set(yes, I admit it, can you?)to say America when I speak of us as well as all our allies in this. My apalogies.

I wouldn't say that was quite true, Maybe now in recent times we are adhering to the geneva convention (but I'm not so sure what with allegations of torture in Camp x-ray) but certainly in the past since WWII some of our actions have definately not been in accordance with the convention.

have a look into the actions of UK troops in Kenya during the 50s, there were reports of mistreatment of the civilians population, beheadings by UK troops and forced labour.