Question: If Jesus was the son of God, why did he wait to do his miracles?

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by Lionhearte

 

And how do you decide, if a "known lie" is a "KNOWN lie", a "known LIE" or a "KNOWN LIE" to anyone implicated in martyrdom etc. It sounds like another circle-argument with the only constant factor being that of people willing to die because of faith (in any ideology).

Emphasis was placed on both words because everyone involved (ie all party members) would have had to have known it was a fabrication, if it was such. That isn't the case, however, because the surge of followers of Christ that followed immediately after he died cannot be explained any other way. Unless you would like to show us some of your "Non-Christian Logic" and give an alternative explanation as to why all the events unfolded the way they did.

I advise you to get your facts correct first before analyzing them, though.

Whether you like it or not, the word 'logic' has semantic 'copyrights' (as defined linguistically), and this definition doesn't included the common christian misuse of the concept.

I'm not arguing the definition of the word, I'm arguing your generalization of all Christians, because when one states, "Christian Logic", it implies that all Christians share the same circle-argument logic, which clearly isn't the case, whether you like it or not, not everyone can be easily dismissed as having no merit in their arguments because of their beliefs.

This is basically a repetition of your recent claim with new details. And as answered before, but suited to your new version of the same postulate-type: Fanatics from every position go to great lengths to proselytize.

Because you obviously didn't get my point the first time across, so I felt the need to repeat myself. You're implying that the Apostles (at best) abandoned their lives to follow some random guy, went full bat# crazy, and after Jesus' death, decided to (for some reason) preach the word of God and suffer persecution and death.. for no reason?

You can call "crazy" all you want, but "crazy" is subjective. People believe in things all the time that others' deem crazy - UFOs, Lizard-men, etc etc.. I don't claim to believe in such things myself, but logically speaking, those who DO believe in UFOs/Lizard-men/whatever, if they knew without a shadow of a doubt that UFOs/Aliens/Lizard-men did NOT exist, would they be willing to suffer for it?

That's what makes it a KNOWN LIE. Sure, they may have pride left and be too embarrassed to admit they were wrong, but would they DIE for their beliefs? If under pain and torture and the threat of DEATH were looming over them, you are telling me they wouldn't denounce their beliefs?

That isn't logical, my friend.

I doubt if anyone, based on a self-fullfilling 2.000 year old mythology, could create a sound psychological profile of any of the characters, specifying the psychological mechanisms and even less put anything 'divine' etc into the situation.

"Divine" is subjective, as I'm sure you and I both have different opinions on what that means, and I won't get into that. However, what would you presume to be a "sound" psychological profile of a fictional character?

Perhaps if the Apostles weren't described as such cowards? They described themselves exactly as they were, they didn't care that they appeared weak and cowardly, they knew their lives would be used for something greater.

But if you want evidenced, contemporary examples of individuals of having such 'conversions' taking place, we only have to look at Hitler, who in a matter of 10-20 minutes could perform such mental stunts Described by the english ambassador in Germany at that time, who for a short while became 'converted' himself. As english quickly being deconditioned, while millions of germans stayed conditioned.

If you can elaborate on this, or at least be more clear, I'd appreciate it. I'm not quite sure what "evidenced, contemporary example" is shown here, exactly.

I do know of such people, though never with a person-to-person contact.

If they are well-known, please share.

So far you've only been responding to the tone of my posts, as usual. If you can actually directly refute the central points, it would be appreciated.

reply to post by Lionhearte


You wrote:

["That isn't the case, however, because the surge of followers of Christ that followed immediately after he died cannot be explained any other way."]

As I already pointed out, 'surges' are rather common in mankind and are expressions of psychological mechanisms, not any 'proof' of supernatural agencies at work


Quote: ["Unless you would like to show us some of your "Non-Christian Logic" and give an alternative explanation as to why all the events unfolded the way they did."]

Done twice already, should be sufficient.

Quote: ["I advise you to get your facts correct first before analyzing them, though."]

I'm not using your standards for 'facts', but the official standards, so you and I most likely operate with different types of facts.

Quote: ["I'm not arguing the definition of the word, I'm arguing your generalization of all Christians, because when one states, "Christian Logic", it implies that all Christians share the same circle-argument logic,"]

I'm not aware of any generalization of christians on my part, unless you take yourself and similar versions of christians as representatives of all christianity.

Quote: ["which clearly isn't the case, whether you like it or not, not everyone can be easily dismissed as having no merit in their arguments because of their beliefs."]

I'm not dismissing anyone because of their beliefs, but because of their use of twisted logic. I go to lengths to defend the rights of 'faith' (in its proper context of a personal choice).

Quote: ["Because you obviously didn't get my point the first time across, so I felt the need to repeat myself. You're implying that the Apostles (at best) abandoned their lives to follow some random guy, went full bat# crazy, and after Jesus' death, decided to (for some reason) preach the word of God and suffer persecution and death.. for no reason?"]

I said: "These things happen, it doesn't 'prove' anything". You made the argument into an 'absolute' statement seeing consequences beyond the options of the situation. This is bad logic.

Quote: ["You can call "crazy" all you want, but "crazy" is subjective."]

Thanks for your permission, but I try to keep a decent language, and haven't used the word 'crazy', if my memory serves me.

Quote: ["People believe in things all the time that others' deem crazy - UFOs, Lizard-men, etc etc.. I don't claim to believe in such things myself, but logically speaking, those who DO believe in UFOs/Lizard-men/whatever, if they knew without a shadow of a doubt that UFOs/Aliens/Lizard-men did NOT exist, would they be willing to suffer for it?"]

I doubt if there exists any reliable answer to that question.

Quote: [" That's what makes it a KNOWN LIE. Sure, they may have pride left and be too embarrassed to admit they were wrong, but would they DIE for their beliefs? If under pain and torture and the threat of DEATH were looming over them, you are telling me they wouldn't denounce their beliefs?"]

Yes.

Quote: ["That isn't logical, my friend"]

Not according to your logic. (And please note, that I'm not your friend).

Quote: ["However, what would you presume to be a "sound" psychological profile of a fictional character?"]

That's the point;...... you can't make any exact and sound psychological profiles of fictional characters. You can make analyses of ideologies presented though and examine the type of mind behind them.

Quote: ["Perhaps if the Apostles weren't described as such cowards? They described themselves exactly as they were, they didn't care that they appeared weak and cowardly, they knew their lives would be used for something greater."]

I look at what the texts present ideologically and leave any circular reality-claims apart, except where such can be exposed to a 'reality-check'.

Quote: ["I'm not quite sure what "evidenced, contemporary example" is shown here, exactly."]

Hitler and 'surge' are the operative words.

Examples of martyrs:

Kamikaze-bombers, muslim jihadists, self-burning buddhist monks, the elite troops in the former zulu-empire. People joining the resistance against germany in WW II.

Quote: ["So far you've only been responding to the tone of my posts, as usual. If you can actually directly refute the central points, it would be appreciated."]

Technically I don't need to (though I have done so). YOU are the one making extra-ordinary claims. This is another example of misapplied 'logic'. When I start getting 'pastafarian', you wouldn't be expected to DISPROVE me. I would carry the burden of proof.

That's standard logic.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Akragon, "I AM" was simply a title God used to describe Himself. Paralleling His statements that He's the "God who was, who is, and who is yet to come". His eternal nature. Moses never claimed to be the great "I AM". Jesus however, refered to Himself as the Great I AM, and said He pre-existed Abraham. Jesus also calls Himself the Great I AM, the Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last, the Almighty in Revelation.

Alright, fine me those quotes.... Leave revelations out of it because it has no relevents to the subject. Theres no possible way to prove John was spoken to by Jesus the spirit. The book reads nothing like how Jesus spoke. Sounds nothing like how he spoke... And the fact is after all this I AM nonsence, the bottom line is Jesus never claimed to be God. Others did but he did not...ever.

So, find me those passages and we'll go from there

No, I'll include Revelation (singular and specific) because it was written by Jesus's "beloved" apostle John. Also it's a book specifically about the revealing of Jesus Christ, hence the title. It's quite interesting you have reason to challenge the NT books written by the apostles of Jesus but you accept all the Gnostic books which were written 1-2 hundred years after the apostles died. How does that make sense? How would men from Alexandria Egypt who never met Christ know His "true" teachings and assume the apostles who walked the Earth with Him for 3 1/2 years are "inaccurate".

Anyways, your beliefs are extremely similar to Jehovah's Witnesses even though you're not one of them. So I'll let Dr. Ron Carlson address the errors of the JW philosophy for you. He's pretty much the foremost expert on the planet in regards to cults and world religions:

(Specifically video 3)

reply to post by bogomil

The ideological issues, which I believe the average reader will be able to grasp for him/herself. If the bible needs expert elitists, secret codes, signs and wonders, hermeneutic semantics and whatever to be 'understood', it is as I often claim (in parts) a religion so saturated with self-proclaimed authority, that this scares any individual with independent thinking away.

So you "believe"? I'll be quite honest, I'm not really interested in your arbitrary conjectures Bog. You said James and Jude were influenced by "Pauline" Christianity. James's epistle specifically. You have yet to demonstrate how Paul influenced James and Jude, Christ's half-brothers, who worshiped Him as Lord after He resurrected. James's epistle was written before Paul's letters, and James didn't meet Paul till the first of the Jerusalem councils.

So how exactly did Paul influence James and Jude, and Jame's epistle specifically?

reply to post by freespirit1


The short answer is because Jesus is Jewish, raised Jewish, taught Jewish, therefore he fulfilled the laws.

The long answer (and well worth the read) is:

Bet Sefer, to Bet Midrash, to Talmid, to Rabbi!

The Torah (first 5 books of our Bible), which means teaching or way is of the utmost importance to the Jewish people. Jewish boys, including Jesus would have started this training around age 6. This training is called bet sefer (meaning house of the book) and would last until the age of 12. He would have trained at a local synagogue and be taught by a rabbi or Torah teacher, often memorizing the first five books.

At age 12, he would have began studying the oral interpretations of the Torah. This would involve question and answer time with the teacher. Between 13 and 15, the best from among the boys were chosen to further their education with a local rabbi in bet midrash (meaning house of study). If a boy was not chosen, he would then go home to learn the family trade. Those staying would learn about the oral traditions and learn by wisdom, to be able to apply it to everyday life.

Chosen from 'bet midrash' were truly gifted boys - to travel and study with a famous rabbi as a talmid (meaning disciple). As a talmid, Jesus would have followed his rabbi anywhere. Some of the Dead Sea Scrolls refer to a teacher of righteousness, so it's even possible that Jesus (and John the Baptist) were at one time taught by someone from the Essenes sect.

Then finally, at around the age of 30, a talmid would be considered a rabbi and begin his public ministry.

The fact remains, that we just don't know certain things because the narratives focus so much on the first coming and the enabling power of God's Holy Spirit. What they do focus on is way more important, than where he was or who was doing the teaching. Jesus' claim is that he is the Messiah, so if the things he taught begin and continue to come to fruition in ones life, then he is just who he claimed to be. Critical to remember is that ALL his teachings are for your spiritual well being, and had to be accomplished by him in the physical realm; on earth as it is in heaven.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You wrote:

["So you "believe"?"]

Sure do; in something,..... like the sun will rise tomorrow. On a scale of faith, belief, hypothesis, theory and generally accepted theory, I even have a little faith. That mankind possibly will survive ideological fascism.

Quote:: [" I'll be quite honest, I'm not really interested in your arbitrary conjectures Bog."]

We don't live in theocracies (at least I don't), so there's free speech and no zombification. You can answer or not.

Quote: ["You said James and Jude were influenced by "Pauline" Christianity."]

Didn't say that. That's part of your imaginatorium.

Quote: ["You have yet to demonstrate how Paul influenced James and Jude, Christ's half-brothers,"]

Why? (according to the above).

Quote: ["So how exactly did Paul influence James and Jude, and Jame's epistle specifically?"]

As this is your fantasy of what I've said, you tell me. You're doing quite well alone.

But to give you some REAL water on your mill, I'll remind you, that I detest Paulus and consider him a sociopath, who hijacked the Jesus movement.

Because the 'suzuki method' of miracles hadn't been invented yet!
Biological component of the incarnation had not been activated to perform said miracles, in the younger years.

Akushla

reply to post by akushla99

Originally posted by akushla99
Because the 'suzuki method' of miracles hadn't been invented yet!

Star that! ... I've been listening to miracles under my pillow when I go to sleep for years, and still haven't learned that song! I figure once I can perform 1000 miracles without any mistakes, i'll have this miracle thing down!

Originally posted by puzzlesphere
reply to post by akushla99

 

Originally posted by akushla99
Because the 'suzuki method' of miracles hadn't been invented yet!

Star that!

... I've been listening to miracles under my pillow when I go to sleep for years, and still haven't learned that song! I figure once I can perform 1000 miracles without any mistakes, i'll have this miracle thing down!

Cheers!

But...miracles, under your pillow?
Is it a song?

Akushla

Originally posted by puzzlesphere
reply to post by akushla99

 

Originally posted by akushla99
Because the 'suzuki method' of miracles hadn't been invented yet!

Star that!

... I've been listening to miracles under my pillow when I go to sleep for years, and still haven't learned that song! I figure once I can perform 1000 miracles without any mistakes, i'll have this miracle thing down!

Is it the book (or subject) 'A course in miracles' being referred to here. My ex-wife followed that for a while and from being relatively sane and intelligent, she turned into a 'synchronicity' hunter constantly seeing 'miracles', where no miracles were.

Aaaaah, the wonderful power of circular faith, which in my case has led to my conversion to pastafarianism in an inverse way.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by puzzlesphere
reply to post by akushla99

 

Originally posted by akushla99
Because the 'suzuki method' of miracles hadn't been invented yet!

Star that!

... I've been listening to miracles under my pillow when I go to sleep for years, and still haven't learned that song! I figure once I can perform 1000 miracles without any mistakes, i'll have this miracle thing down!

Is it the book (or subject) 'A course in miracles' being referred to here. My ex-wife followed that for a while and from being relatively sane and intelligent, she turned into a 'synchronicity' hunter constantly seeing 'miracles', where no miracles were.

Aaaaah, the wonderful power of circular faith, which in my case has led to my conversion to pastafarianism in an inverse way.

'Noodle' around too much, and the miracle mighta go pasta you!
Akushla

Originally posted by akushla99

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by puzzlesphere
reply to post by akushla99

 

Originally posted by akushla99
Because the 'suzuki method' of miracles hadn't been invented yet!

Star that!

... I've been listening to miracles under my pillow when I go to sleep for years, and still haven't learned that song! I figure once I can perform 1000 miracles without any mistakes, i'll have this miracle thing down!

Is it the book (or subject) 'A course in miracles' being referred to here. My ex-wife followed that for a while and from being relatively sane and intelligent, she turned into a 'synchronicity' hunter constantly seeing 'miracles', where no miracles were.

Aaaaah, the wonderful power of circular faith, which in my case has led to my conversion to pastafarianism in an inverse way.

'Noodle' around too much, and the miracle mighta go pasta you!
Akushla

Ramen, possibly-brother.

People are so used to the benefits of intellectual achievements these days, that even while the intellect is some satanic tool, it's nice to have around anyway, and not explicitely a sin to rely on.

The real 'miracle' is mankind's ability to use the intellect, and the inclusion of humour, when the going gets rough.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by akushla99

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by puzzlesphere
reply to post by akushla99

 

Originally posted by akushla99
Because the 'suzuki method' of miracles hadn't been invented yet!

Star that!

... I've been listening to miracles under my pillow when I go to sleep for years, and still haven't learned that song! I figure once I can perform 1000 miracles without any mistakes, i'll have this miracle thing down!

Is it the book (or subject) 'A course in miracles' being referred to here. My ex-wife followed that for a while and from being relatively sane and intelligent, she turned into a 'synchronicity' hunter constantly seeing 'miracles', where no miracles were.

Aaaaah, the wonderful power of circular faith, which in my case has led to my conversion to pastafarianism in an inverse way.

'Noodle' around too much, and the miracle mighta go pasta you!
Akushla

Ramen, possibly-brother.

People are so used to the benefits of intellectual achievements these days, that even while the intellect is some satanic tool, it's nice to have around anyway, and not explicitely a sin to rely on.

The real 'miracle' is mankind's ability to use the intellect, and the inclusion of humour, when the going gets rough.

'Ramen' around too much...

Doesn't sound right!

Akushla

reply to post by bogomil


Now Bogs, I realize you're getting on in years but your memory isn't that bad. I brought up the significance of Jesus's half-brothers worshiping Him as Lord not when He was alive, but after His resurrection. To which you implied James and Jude were influenced by "Pauline Christianity". Which I found to be quite an interesting conjecture since James didn't meet Paul until the first Jerusalem Council, and James didn't read any of Paul's epistles because they had not yet been written by Paul. So I needed clarification, you implied James and Jude were influences of "Pauline Christianity". And specifically you said James's "epistle".

Begin clarifying please. So kindly show how James was influenced by "Pauline Christianity", or admit you were talking from your hindquarters out of disdain for Paul.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You wrote:

["To which you implied James and Jude were influenced by "Pauline Christianity"."]

If you find any such 'implication', feel free. Your implication-finding is your business, which is of no interest for the context I'm presenting.

That context started with some claims by the contributor 'Lionheart', developed further by your comment on a chronological sequence and ended with my statement "according to the pauline version".

To 'clarify' it for you, a 'version' means what is presented from a specific position, in this case not including HOW the presented material was created.

So no more semantic gymnastics via 'implications' of your own construction.

PS My memory really is lousy, but that's in any case besides the point here.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


My beliefs are not even close to JW's... Interesting you say that though considering i recently spent 30+ pages debunking a JW's beliefs a few weeks ago. Clearly you don't know me very well...

Btw i didn't say i accept all of the gnostic texts, i'd say they are a different perspective on Jesus. Like the bible there are many things on gnostic scripture i don't agree with. Why do christians assume so much, it blows my mind sometimes.

Feel free to accept revelations for whatever you think it is, and i will do the same. I do not accept "inspired" as a valid method of writing what is supposed to be a "holy" text. Be it gnostic or christian...

Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion
reply to post by freespirit1

 

The same reason you... who are also a "son of God"... have yet to perform your miracles (I presume).

He became Human and had to relearn/be taught who he is. Otherwise it would have been a meaningless example to provide for us to aspire to.

Namaste!

Ya that sounds about right. I do not believe that Jesus saw himself the same way that we tend to talk of him, and the whole bible as a matter of fact.

I think we all have the same abilities or potentials, as every other human being. The fact is to be able to get to a point of clarity on most occasions, and the ability to see what exists in a certain situation and be able to be so caught up in that now moment where no other thought may cross your mind without your acknowledgment and acceptance.

Jesus seemed to be in that "Being-ness" more often than not, and the fact that he was surrounded by so many people who could not hold that "Being-ness" because of maybe the lack of knowing what our emotions are really saying to us, and the knowing that we are worthy enough to be able to pick and choose which emotion you would rather be focused upon.

That would be a Mystical Human being to me, and quite exhilarating to be in the presence of that kind of energy.

reply to post by akushla99


lol... no, not a song, as such... you see, I found an alien/demonic device while mentally traversing through the furthest dimensions from our reality that allows me to transpose physical events to musical form. So I have gathered all the information on miracles in our realm through divination and fed in the data to my machine (we'll ignore for now how I managed to get the machine into our reality from the furthest dimensions, as that's a whole other story... incidentally I met what we call the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and it isn’t spaghetti at all!... it's linguini!, but it doesn't mind our transgression since in the end we're all just pasta... the everlasting noodle).

I figure once the “miracle” music has permeated my consciousness, I'll be able to reverse engineer the music back into physical events, thus making it possible for me to perform miracles!

Completely logical... don’t you think?

Funnily enough miracles sound somewhat like death metal crossed with cabaret, with just a touch of electronica and overtones of Japanese Pan Pipes.

Originally posted by puzzlesphere
reply to post by akushla99

 

lol... no, not a song, as such... you see, I found an alien/demonic device while mentally traversing through the furthest dimensions from our reality that allows me to transpose physical events to musical form. So I have gathered all the information on miracles in our realm through divination and fed in the data to my machine (we'll ignore for now how I managed to get the machine into our reality from the furthest dimensions, as that's a whole other story... incidentally I met what we call the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and it isn’t spaghetti at all!... it's linguini!, but it doesn't mind our transgression since in the end we're all just pasta... the everlasting noodle).

I figure once the “miracle” music has permeated my consciousness, I'll be able to reverse engineer the music back into physical events, thus making it possible for me to perform miracles!

Completely logical... don’t you think?

Funnily enough miracles sound somewhat like death metal crossed with cabaret, with just a touch of electronica and overtones of Japanese Pan Pipes.

edit on 5-9-2011 by puzzlesphere because: (no reason given)

Wow! That's amazing!

Perhaps that's why you're under the distinctly erroneous notion that you are somehow consuming me...

Truth is far stranger than fiction. In fact the strangness has never been written into a tome.
By the way, i do love a tag team.

Akushla

Originally posted by puzzlesphere
reply to post by akushla99

 

Originally posted by akushla99
Because the 'suzuki method' of miracles hadn't been invented yet!

Star that!

... I've been listening to miracles under my pillow when I go to sleep for years, and still haven't learned that song! I figure once I can perform 1000 miracles without any mistakes, i'll have this miracle thing down!

What often go as 'miracles' are sadly overrated, mankind LOVES street-theater, the melodramatic and sensationalism, so any statistical aberration from the known norm is a potential 'miracle', which people can go 'ooooh' and 'aaah' about and build religions on.

Whereas real 'miracles', i.e. transcending cosmic order ('natural laws'), have been so devaluated, that even normal events can be miraculous, if enough semantic ornamentation is applicated or through such questionable methods as inductive categories and 'synchronocities'.

(For those unfamiliar with these two last concepts it means that you for dear life hang on to similarities,...however small.... in thingies and events and find an imagined pattern in it.)

True reality-seeking takes a second place to this, nothing can beat the motives of entertainment or "I want meaning in life, even if I have to invent one".

In the midst of all the cartesian confusion of "I drink, therefore I am", with solipsism spooking at the horizon.... forcing the dedicated theist to either fanatism or adaption to a multiple personality....... we can still rely somewhat on the existence of consciousness per se.

*******

After thus having created a background canvass, I now address your thoughts directly, in-the-sphere-of-puzzles, as I find quite much sense in your comments.

Maybe you can accept this allegory: Consciousness.....'the mind'?.... is like a radio (a primitive device from my youth, a kind of TV without the visual option), which you can tune to the various available wavelengths of cosmic energies. There's a 'holy spirit' wavelength (which from some christians with monopoly-ambitions wrongly is claimed to be a christian copyright); there's a 'third eye' wavelength; a chi/reiki-energy wl; a 'mother, Gaia, Kuan-Yin, compassion' wl; an inspiragon wl (inspiragons are sofar unknown elementary particles... like photons and gluons.... acting on emotions and the intellect simultaneously); etc....

in short what's generally offered through diverse 'initiation' procedures, which basically are pointing to the tuning button and a giving a specific wavelength.

Whatever 'reality' is, these direct-experiences are important parts of it, but out-of-hand calling them miracles and concentrating on one wavelength as THE wavelength is putting on blinkers.

Now I have the distinct impression, that you know, what you're talking about, and that really you have a home-made tuner under your pillow (however little or much physical it is), a result of trial-and-error, experiences beyond the fields we see and solid craftsmans-ship.

I can guess at this, as I have one myself. Part physical thingumajic, part a map and part 'being there'. But as with you, no REAL miracles sofar. (The day I successfully can walk on water every time I try, I'll send you a U2U with details).

PS I somewhat resent your heresy in a later post, concerning your dissenting secterism on the subject of spaghetti and linguini. I hope, we can settle it without crusades, blood and inqusitions. You just have to agree, that you are wrong, and all will be honky-dory.