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An in-depth (re)view of the Cash/ Landrum case

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posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 12:33 AM

An in-depth (re)view of the Cash/ Landrum case

I. Introduction
II. What happened that night?
III. Physical evidence, witnesses and investigations
IV. The mysterious craft and the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Nightstalkers)
V. Conclusions and unanswered questions
VI. Text and media sources

I. Introduction

Hello my people here on ATS.
First off all, as always, I want to excuse any bad English in advance, I will try my best though

So I wanted to start a thread about the infamous Cash/ Landrum incident a.k.a. the “Texas UFO sighting”. I’m aware that there are already several other threads dealing with this topic but none of these digs really deep and I wanted to collect any data I could get, view the topic from as many angles as possible and present you a compact thread with pieces of information I’m sure you already know and some information may be new to you

I don’t know where my fascination for this case originates from but one reason *may be* I always have been fascinated by water towers and concrete towers

On a more serious note I think this case is really one of the best “UFO” cases. Why? There are many witnesses of the same event, actual physical evidence and actual proof the U.S. government conducts secret tests with black projects (of course that’s no secret at all) but on top of that it approves health risks for its citizens and still denies such operations. Betty Cash suffered illness after illness after the UFO encounter which eventually led to cancer and to her death, what a coincidence, 18 years later exactly on the same day of the encounter, on December 29, 1998.

One thing you probably will be noticing is that I left out details of the legal battle with the US government which was eventually dismissed in August 1986. I won’t get into these legal actions because I want to concentrate on the case from a UFO standpoint and not a lawyer’s (maybe Isaac will have some input for those interested
), I hope you can live with that. This thread serves also as an information pool. I wanted to have as many available information as possible packed into one thread. There’s also a large amount of extern text passages, please don’t be scared to read!

I want to encourage you to be a part of a discussion of this case, maybe other members can give their input as well. Maybe some questions can be answered by aviation experts, we’ll see. So here we go, the Cash/ Landrum case (once again^^), ladies and gentlemen.

II. What happened that night?

On December 29th 1980 , Betty Cash, Vickie Landrum and her grandson Colby Landrum, were driving along a road in Huffman, Texas when they saw a bright light in the sky.

Betty Cash (transcript at Bergstrom AFB):

“Well we hadn't thought about it being a Monday night because we'd had so many holidays, and we had gone to Cleveland that night to play Bingo. We got to Cleveland there was no bingo game. We couldn't... we figured out, well it was through the holidays they had cancelled it. So we thought well, we'd go on to New Caney, 'cause they had Bingo over there also. We got to New Caney and there was still no bingo, not realizing that it was on a Monday night instead of a Tuesday, and we stopped at the truck stop restaurant there…”

Here's the road in plain daylight:

After leaving the restaurant some time between 8.20 and 8.30 pm, Betty drove them along Highway FM 1485, a road usually used only by people who live in the area because it is so isolated. After driving a little more along the road, they came across a large diamond shaped UFO hovering over the road belching fire out of the bottom. Since the flames were blocking the road, they had to stop the car about 65 yards away from the craft and the three of them got out. Vickie and Colby stayed by the car, whereas Betty went on to get a closer look:

“…and after we got through eating, we got in the car and started home, and we drove approximately... I'd say maybe twelve miles, when we spotted this object, and we kept watching it, we couldn't figure out what it was, not ever dreaming that we were going to run... dead into it. But all of a sudden, when we got out on this country road, it just set down, almost level with the treetops. Well, it had lit up the entire sky. Well it was seen as far as fifty miles away from where we were. But, on that country road, the lights were so bright, and the heat was so intense, I got out of the car. I don't know what my purpose was unless it was just normal instinct to think well, maybe I'd be safer outside than I would be inside. But tell you the truth, we thought the end of the world was coming. I mean we'd I'd never in my life gone through such a situation. But I knew that there was no way we could go under it the way the fire was shooting out the bottom of it.”

Vickie Landrum told Cash to stop the car, fearing they would be burned if they approached any closer. However, Vickie's opinion of the object quickly changed: a born again Christian, she interpreted the object as a sign of the second coming of Jesus Christ, telling her grandson, "That's Jesus. He will not hurt us."

She spent a long time gazing at it and her skin began to burn because of the heat from the flames.

“The object, intensely bright and a dull metallic silver, was shaped like a huge upright diamond, about the size of the Dayton water tower, with its top and bottom cut off so that they were flat rather than pointed. Small blue lights ringed the center, and periodically over the next few minutes flames shot out of the bottom, flaring outward, creating the effect of a large cone. Every time the fire dissipated, the UFO floated a few feet downwards toward the road. But when the flames blasted out again, the object rose about the same distance."

She returned to the car when the object began to rise. When she touched the door it was so painfully hot that she had to use her leather jacket to protect her hands as she got back in the car. Cash said she had to use her coat to protect her hand from being burnt when she finally re-entered the car. When she touched the car's dashboard, Vickie Landrum's hand pressed into the softened vinyl, leaving an imprint that was evident weeks later. Investigators cited this handprint as proof of the witnesses' account; however, no photograph of the alleged handprint exists.
Betty Cash's car:

As it ascended over the treetops, the witnesses claimed that a group of helicopters approached the object and surrounded it in tight formation. Cash and Landrum counted 23 helicopters, and later identified them as tandem-rotor CH-47 Chinooks used by military forces worldwide (especially heavy lifts and troop transport).

In this case the helicopters seen by them were most likely controlled by the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (we’ll get back later to that).

When the effects of the bright light had worn off, Betty started the engine and they drove off down the darkened highway. After a mile or so of twisting road they were able to join a larger highway and turn in the direction of the departing UFO. This was about 8km and five minutes later. The object was clearly visible some distance ahead and looked like a bright cylinder of light. It was still lighting up the surrounding area and illuminating the helicopters.

As soon as the UFO and helicopters were a safe distance ahead Betty drove on. When she reached an intersection she turned away from the flight path of the UFO and towards Dayton where the three of them lived. She dropped Vickie and Colby off at their home at about 9.50 and went home by herself. A friend and her children were there waiting for Betty but by this time she was feeling to ill to tell them about what had happened. Over the next few hours Betty's skin turned red as if badly sun burned. Her neck swelled and blisters erupted and broke on her face, scalp and eyelids. She started to vomit and continued to do so through out the night.

That night, they all experienced similar symptoms, though Cash to a greater degree. All suffered from nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, generalized weakness, a burning sensation in their eyes, and feeling as though they'd suffered sunburns.
Over the next few days, Cash's symptoms worsened, with many large, painful blisters forming on her skin. When taken to a hospital emergency room on January 3, 1981, Clark writes, Cash "could not walk, and had lost large patches of skin and clumps of hair. She was released after 12 days, though her condition was not much better, and she later returned to the hospital for another 15 days."

The Landrums' health was somewhat better, though both suffered from lingering weakness, skin sores and hair loss.

III. Physical evidence, witnesses and investigations

In this section I want to share with you some of the witnesses accounts and testimonies from over the years. Which (physical) evidence was left after the incident? Let’s start with the symptoms of the victims, treated by Dr. Brian McClelland, here in the 80’s as seen on Unsolved Mysteries:

Dr. McClelland asked anyone involved in this case to step forward and at least to tell him which kind of radiation the victims were exposed to so a proper medical treatment could be conducted.

He described the symptoms as being similar to severe radiation poisoning. There are photographs of the injuries inflicted by the heat and/or radiation emitted from the unidentified craft, and those photos show both the burns and the extreme hair loss inflicted on the occupants of the car:

In 2008 there was an Episode, “Alien Fallout”, on UFO Hunters. The team met up again with Dr. McClelland who said there were people (in the know) actually hearing his words and stepping forward, telling him that there was an accident with an aircraft called the “W.A.S.P. 2”. In section IV I’ll get back to that again.

Anyway, he examined now 32 years old Colby Landrum but couldn’t find any trace of (skin) cancer or the like.

Vickie Landrum telephoned a number of U.S. government agencies and officials about the encounter. When she telephoned NASA, Landrum was steered towards NASA aerospace engineer John Schuessler, long interested in UFOs. With some associates from civilian UFO research group MUFON, Schuessler began research on the case, and later wrote articles and a book on the subject. Astronomer Allan Hendry of CUFOS also investigated the Cash-Landrum case.

John F. Schuessler, MUFON, The Cash-Landrum UFO Incident (Book) :

This book documents the extent of the witnesses' medical injuries and chronicles the rigorous investigation that ensued. The investigation uncovered numerous witnesses to the extensive helicopter activity, as well as sightings of the object as it travelled west across Texas from the Louisiana border. The book also details the interactions with government officials and the legal actions taken by the victims. Even after eighteen years, the investigation is still ongoing, making this one of the most thoroughly investigated cases ever. Schuessler even went to the place in question and took pictures of the burned road.

(I don’t know if any actual picture has been released by him, this one is a still from the Unsolved Mysteries episode: )

Another witness I want to introduce you to is retired Detective LL Walker:

On Unsolved Mysteries he explained how he and his wife had an encounter with the Chinooks and both of them counted at least 20 of them. After his description the helicopters had search beams turned on, like they were trying to a) distract from the actual event, b) looking for the craft. You can see a nice video/ close up of such a double rotor right here on youtube:

Mr. Walker was interviewed on Unsolved Mysteries and again on “Alien Fallout”, some 20 years later, sticking to the same story.

The next witness who even suffered from symptoms like radiation sickness is Jerry McDonald:

On History Channel’s UFO Hunters he explained how he saw a craft flying over his property which looked triangular and obviously had two “exhaust pipes” with two flames coming out. According to him the flames were blue-ish and looked like the light from a welder or “when cutting metal”. Here’s the sketch Mr. McDonald painted on UFO Hunters:

Doc Velocity, member on AboveTopSecret about the mysterious unmarked trucks and “road repair crew”, the link to his thread can be found in the “Sources” section:

In early January of 1981, I was catching a ride from a buddy who lived in Conroe, Texas, and we necessarily travelled that same roadway (FM 1485) on our way to work on the east side of Houston. We usually left well before sunrise to reach our jobsite by 7:00 AM, as the commuter traffic up there around Conroe was legendarily bad. So it was still dark when we hit the road.

This would have been shortly after the Cash-Landrum incident transpired, but we didn't know that, as the story had not yet reached the press.

Outside of New Caney, Texas, on a stretch of 1485 that was particularly desolate at the time, we encountered a nondescript sawhorse roadblock and what I supposed was a contract road crew working in the dark, using only a spotlight tree to illuminate what appeared to be some serious road repairs. In fact, we were turned back to New Caney because the entire road was closed.

I thought this was odd because there were no "detour" nor "road closed" nor "men working" warning signs, and it was highly unusual for road repairs to shut down both sides of a thoroughfare. Unless, of course, it was an emergency job. We assumed that a petroleum tanker had crashed and burned, damaging the road and warranting a rush repair.

By the light of our headlights, we could see quite a bit of heavy equipment — a couple of beaten-up and unmarked dump trucks, an unmarked front-end loader, an unmarked road grader, and a couple of other bulky vehicles hidden by the darkness. I guessed that it was a blacktop machine, because we could smell creosote and asphalt in the air. None of the road crew were wearing reflective gear, either, which I thought was pretty peculiar. They were tearing up and laying a new road. In the dark.

Aside from being a little puzzled and pissed off, we turned around and took an alternate route to work and didn't give the road block another thought, except that we remembered to take a different route home later that day.

Shortly thereafter, the Cash-Landrum incident first made the news in a big way; even then, we didn't put two-and-two together for a few more weeks. Then, on the way home from work one afternoon, travelling up FM 1485, we made the connection — here was a new stretch of over 100 feet of the roadway that was stark and pristine blacktop. Even the gravel shoulders of the road were fresh gravel, all of which stood out like a sore thumb against the rest of the forested scenery.

It just suddenly became very obvious to us — this was where that goddamned thing, that diamond-shaped UFO, had come down and melted the road. As later confirmed by the witnesses, it was the exact site of the incident.

Which was a distinctly creepy feeling, but also an infuriating one. I mean, this thing had provided even the staunchest skeptics with some of the most irrefutable physical evidence they could possibly demand of a UFO sighting... A melted highway, and a trio of witnesses suffering high-energy radiation burns, for Godsake.

But the evidence was deliberately destroyed and paved-over.

Another quote from Wikipedia:

A radiologist who examined the witnesses' medical records for MUFON wrote, "We have strong evidence that these patients have suffered secondary damage to ionizing radiation. It is also possible that there was an infrared or ultraviolet component as well." However, Brad Sparks contends that, although the symptoms were somewhat similar to those caused by ionizing radiation, the rapidity of onset was only consistent with a massive dose that would have meant certain death in a few days. Since all of the victims lived for years after the incident, Sparks suggests the cause of the symptoms was some kind of chemical contamination, presumably by an aerosol.

Due to the Chinook helicopters' presence, the witnesses presumed that at least one branch of the United States Armed Forces witnessed the object, if they were not escorting or pursuing it. However, investigators could find no evidence linking the helicopters with any branch of the military. In 1982, Lt. Col. George Sarran of the Department of the Army Inspector General began the only thorough formal governmental investigation into the supposed UFO encounter. He could not find any evidence that the helicopters the witnesses claimed to have seen belonged to the U.S. Armed Forces. Sarran did conclude that "Ms. Landrum and Ms. Cash were credible … the policeman and his wife [who claimed to have seen 12 helicopters near the UFO encounter site] were also credible witnesses. There was no perception that anyone was trying to exaggerate the truth."

IV. The mysterious craft and the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment

First off all, in every interview with Ms. Cash and Ms. Landrum there is the talk about a “diamond shaped” object which is very unusual for the crafts known to the public. The transcript of the interview on Bergstrom AFB indicates that the size of the craft could be compared to a water tower:

BC: Well, the only thing that I can believe that I can establish, maybe it was as large,
if not larger than a water tower.
CJC: OK, in other words, it was that tall?
BC: Yes... definitely.
CJC: OK, now you are talking about your standard municipal size... water tower?, there
is such a thing as a standard size., ah, yeah, Terry...
CTD: Did you say this was over a tree?
BC: It was over the road, it was... they have real huge tall pine trees in that area and it
was hanging down over the pine trees.
CTD: So it burned the trees up.
BC: Well, (sighs) they were very brown, I'll put it to you like that.


It looked as if it was made from dull aluminium and glowed so bright that it lit up the surrounding forest like daylight. The four points of the diamond were blunt rather than sharp and blue spots or lights ringed its centerline. Had the UFO not come to rest over the road the cone of fire from its lowest point would have set the forest on fire. The object also emitted an intermittent bleeping sound.

Dull aluminium? Maybe stealth tech? But which metal would stand such heat if it “glowed so bright” and flames were shooting out?

As for the bleeping sound… Maybe a “beeper” device like the ones that are installed in big trucks when driving backwards made that sound or could it be the craft itself that made such sounds? Another interesting part you can find in the SAFB interview:

BC: …And at this time it was... fire would
shoot out of it and then it would let up, when it would let up... it made... I don't
know what kind of sound to tell you it was making, it... similar to air brakes...
or?... a whooshing sound.
VL: (breaking in) We're going to a radio station to detect the sounds today.
CJC: Sorry, Ms. Landrum, what did you say?
VL: We're going to a radio station to detect the sounds, when we get back to Houston.

I wonder if there is a recording of the radio station’s broadcast. So the craft made that kind of air brakes sound everytime it would lift up. Why did it make such sounds? Was it because of the engine/ flames or because of the fast movement through the air…

There’s another piece of information I want to show you which can be found in AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY, March 9, 1992 - "Black World"
Engineers, Scientists Encourage Using Highly Classified Technology for Civil Applications - William B. Scott/Los Angeles:

By negatively ionizing air molecules ahead of an aircraft, then
charging the nose to the same polarity, an electrostatic field was
formed. The field tended to repel or alter the molecules' path as the
aircraft approached, according to the article.

If the "black world" actually has developed feasible ways to reduce
airframe drag substantially with controlled electrostatic fields,
commercial aircraft manufacturers and airlines should be campaigning
mightily for the technology. The potential fuel and cost savings for
just American, United and Delta would be staggering.

Here is another interesting piece of information I found while researching:

The use of Army Chinooks, when Air Force, Marine, and Naval aircraft were available in the area, suggests the “city water-tower-sized” ship was an Army or Special Forces troop-carrier, battle ‘saucer, or ground weapons control ship. The air was inflamed by electrical discharges which, because the saucer was apparently malfunctioning, were being emitted from the bottom of the limping saucer, each time the pilot attempted power up to become airborne.

The discharge ‘leakage’ about the bottom, which arced to the ground via Vicki and company - probably attracted by the metallic car - drained the energy required to maintain ‘buoyancy’, grounding and draining the electrical activity necessary to compress the ether carriers and block the gravitational effect on the bottom, to maintain proper flight of the already crippled saucer. The ship was probably experiencing internal dielectric breakdown of essential electrical components. The presence of the car in close proximity to its path, at the time it was crossing above the road, only made matters worse, by forcing the saucer to make a landing on the road, until the car was moved away from it so it could take off again.

Under the circumstances, the pilot could not fly more than a few feet above ground, since further internal damage or a sudden loss of power at a higher altitude might have caused the saucer to smash into the ground with sufficient impact to destroy it and its crew. They couldn’t just leave it parked. The convoy should have been preceded by a scout copter, to clear the way and make sure civilians were not harmed.

The show which the T.V. production, “Unsolved Mysteries” aired on this incident, was false and exaggerated. Vicki never reported seeing “rotating lights” or a “spinning saucer” at all. The media also falsely stated that Vicki had reported seeing “little green men”, or “space beings” through the “saucer’s windows”. This was an outright government lie. Vicki saw no windows.

Red lights seen by Vicki were a horizontal row of stationary discharge electrodes, mounted in an annular line about the middle of the ship. These “lights” (actually emission electrodes) were activated in sequence, one after the other, in one direction around the ship, creating the illusion of rotation. These reddish pulses of current neutralize the “precession problem” I mentioned in the Introduction, by creating a rotation of counteractive force in diametric opposition to the precessive force, thus stabilizing a ship so the pilot has a steady view of the outside.

The government’s covert Ufology lunatic fringe contingency tried to discredit the sighting for the benefit of their pseudo-skeptic counterpart, with the silly lie that the ship was an “alien flying saucer” being escorted to a “meeting between aliens and our leaders”. (BIG LIE RULE NO. 1: MAKE THE LIE BIG ENOUGH). Such scenarios are often accompanied by fabricated environmentalistic bull#, such as a desire by “aliens” to “bring us Earthlings to our senses”, etc., because our “misuse of technology threatens the whole universe”. Give us a break! If the entire earth or solar system were to suddenly vaporize itself in a thorough and complete nuclear explosion, the total effect would be less than that of a flea farting in a tornado.

As mentioned in the chapter above there was the talk about a (/some?) person(s) telling Dr. Brian McClelland the craft was called “The W.A.S.P. 2”. First off all, taking “wasp” literally does make sense because many “military toys” include a hint or association with an animal. Someone creative within the US military could’ve named it “wasp” because of the flame(s) shooting out like the sting of a wasp. The other explanation that could indicate the nature of the craft could be a one-man carrier called … “The W.A.S.P.”. Based in Michigan a company called “Williams International” is known for “product support capability and capacity to meet growth objectives in aviation, industrial and military markets.”. On this site there are even contact mails for the Military:

Quoting the Wikipedia text about “Williams Aerial Systems Platform” the craft “could move in any direction, accelerate rapidly, hover, and rotate on its axis, staying aloft for up to 45 minutes and traveling at speeds up to 60 miles per hour (100 km/h). “ and was “ evaluated by the U.S. Army in the 1980s, and was deemed inferior to the capabilities of helicopters and small unmanned aircraft.” .

In my opinion the craft of the Cash/ Landrum incident has nothing to do with Williams International and the link is misleading and should be (re)searched somewhere else – (program) N.E.R.V.A.! Doesn't it look like something similar to the object described?

What is N.E.R.V.A. ? Well, N.E.R.V.A. stands for “Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Application”, for more specific information please visit this link:

Wikipedia says that it was “a joint program of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission and NASA managed by the Space Nuclear Propulsion Office (SNPO) until both the program and the office ended at the end of 1972”.

So officially it ended in 1972. As we all know the Military has an enhanced interest in continuing successful programs (such as the NERVA) and there was another project, called “Project Timberwind” which was initiated by the DARPA and which ended in 1992:

“Project Timberwind aimed to develop nuclear thermal rockets. It was under the aegis of the Strategic Defence Initiative ("Star Wars"), later expanded into a larger design in the Space Thermal Nuclear Propulsion (STNP) program. Advances in high-temperature metals, computer modelling and nuclear engineering in general resulted in dramatically improved performance. Whereas the NERVA engine was projected to weigh about 6803 kg, the final STNP offered just over 1/3 the thrust from an engine of only 1650 kg, while further improving the specific impulse to 930 to 1000 seconds.
Two exhaust pipes, like described by Jerry McDonald?

Advances in high-temperature metals… Some of the facts above sound like the craft seen in the Cash/ Landrum incident could be very well has been a side project with roots in the NERVA program.

Many of the pictures remind me of what could’ve been packed into an object which was cone/ diamond shaped (a quick photoshop job by me):

Nothing is known about the agency/ military team which was involved but there are indications that the “160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment” a.k.a. “The Nightstalkers” were involved that were also involved in Operation Geronimo.

There are also stories that the forerunner, the 158th S.O.A.R. (quite a pun), were involved because of the presence of the Chinooks. Some people argue that so many soldiers/ Seals had to be involved in the mission in question (do the math, at least 23 helicopters, 3-5 men on board…) and at least one would step forward and tell somebody what really happened. Here’s the Wikipedia link for those who are interested: _Regiment_(Airborne)

V. Conclusions

In my opinion it’s safe to say that this case really took place in a cold December night in 1980: the witnesses seem credible, the injuries and symptoms were more than just enough for the so often asked for physical evidence and last but not least the 3 victims of that night never made any penny with their story. I think it’s also safe to say the craft was man- built, no aliens or UFO as in a classic case (like Betty & Barney Hill’s case) were seen and the traits of the craft like the flames indicate it’s more likely a terrestrial craft than an ET craft.

Unanswered questions remain:
1.) Has it been piloted by a man (or more pilots) or was it more like a drone and remote controlled (remember, no windows and the tremendous heat and radiation…)?
2.) How could it float while no flames were shooting out? Any other exotic engine?
3.) Of which exact size and dimensions was the craft really? All statements were plain estimates.
4.) Of which material consisted the craft (a.k.a. which rocket/ engine could let a heavy craft with proposed dimensions of a water tower float/ with a duration like that?)?
5.) Were other (military personnel/pilots of the helis) persons injured by the craft prior and during this incident?
6.) From which program did this craft originate from and was it abandoned or worked on, maybe to this day?
7.) What was the purpose of such a dangerous craft?
8.) And finally, will the files to this case ever be declassified? (I doubt it…)

I hope I could shed some light on this interesting and yet disturbing case, thanks for reading.

P.S.: What a hell of formatting :-O

VI. Text and media sources
History Channel, UFO Hunters: Season 2, Episode 8: Alien Fallout
Google Maps/ Street View
Clark, Jerome, The UFO Encyclopedia: The Phenomenon from the Beginning, Volume 1: A-K (second edition); Detroit: Omnigraphics, 1998; ISBN 0-7808-0097-4
(and you may want to check out this little story, true or not? I don’t know ;-): )

posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 01:28 AM
nice write up

posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 03:01 AM
reply to post by Dalbeck
A definite case of 'unidentified flying object' that remains mysterious.

A dozen or more chinooks suggests that someone was monitoring the object, but what was it doing in that location rather than over a private testing grounds? Who in their right mind would use rocket propulsion for hovering? The fuel economy would be ridiculous and the described shape doesn't sound like aerodynamics were a factor in the design. Some form of prototype lunar lander designed for low-gravity? Again, why wouldn't it be over at a testing grounds?

The rapid arrival reminds me of the Needles crash from 2008 when a handful of helicopters and something like a heavy-lift Sikorsky appeared and removed the downed object. In the Needles case, the object looked conventional (long fuselage) whereas this one doesn't fit the description of very much.

The physical effects experienced by Betty Cash in particular remain hard to explain too. They're neither one thing or another if the various analyses are truthful. Altogether a very physical incident and not much to go forward with.

Here's a video reconstruction for the tl/dr crew...

posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 03:29 AM
reply to post by mobtek

Thank you

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by Dalbeck

Who in their right mind would use rocket propulsion for hovering? The fuel economy would be ridiculous and the described shape doesn't sound like aerodynamics were a factor in the design. Some form of prototype lunar lander designed for low-gravity? Again, why wouldn't it be over at a testing grounds?

Thanks for your input! Yes, some people suggest the craft could've been in relation to the NASA. I'm dying to know the truth in its entirety

posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 03:38 AM
reply to post by Dalbeck

I don't have the time to post in extreme detail right now and admittedly I haven't even managed to read the entire thread yet but I just wanted to quickly post and say you've done a great job so far, well done!

It's certainly a fascinating case and for someone like myself who hasn't really looked into it all that much in the past, this thread, I'm sure, will prove to be a great research tool. Thanks for posting.

posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 03:43 AM
reply to post by Rising Against

Thanks a lot! It took me really about 2 weeks to gather and collect all important pieces of information and compile it into one thread, it's good to see people are still interested in this case and appreciate the effort (even though of course I used a lot of quotes but I still wanted only to post the most important stuff and therefore had a lot of reading and researching).

posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:06 AM
reply to post by Dalbeck

Awesome thread dude. Gave me agood 15-20minute read + watch of a user posted video on radiation.

S+F for the time & effort you must have put into this. 5*

posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:07 AM
reply to post by fordizzl3

Thanks a lot!!!

posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:51 AM
This is a case that has unarguable facts:
- there was an object, obviosuly relasing radiation and this object was the reason for their injuries.

This cannot be argued about, anyone saying 'this didn't happen' is not thinking clearly.

The rest, is it an alien, is it a military craft remains unknown, abd this is what can be argued about.

posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 01:46 PM
For a ((BUMP))

Whilst trying to picture this vehicle, I remembered a post on the UFO Iconoclasts Blog that featured a modern prototype lunar lander being tested by NASA: Project Morpheus.

Morpheus is a vertical test bed vehicle demonstrating new green propellant propulsion systems and autonomous landing and hazard detection technology. Designed, developed, manufactured and operated in-house by engineers at NASA’s Johnson Space Center, the Morpheus Project represents not only a vehicle to advance technologies, but also an opportunity to try out “lean development” engineering practices.

It's a work in progress and I'm posting it as an example of various experimental designs that roughly coincide with the description by Cash and Landrum. It's also to demonstrate that test bed vehicles are tested in secure locations with support staff and safety crews. Whatever they claimed to have seen sounds like a prototype, but it's hard to understand why it was where it was. I don't know if things were hugely different in the early 80s and this video shows why it's safer to keep test craft away from the public...

edit on 19-8-2011 by Kandinsky because: (no reason given)

posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 09:05 AM
This is one of my absolute favorite UFO cases because the evidence is so strong. Didn't Betty Cash eventually die of cancer?

There definitely are a lot of unanswered questions here. It -sounds- like it was a secret military craft, but as mentioned, why would the military want to use such a dangerous craft? For what purpose? And why not at a more secure, safer location? I'm wondering if there were the closest military base is. Perhaps this was being tested in a secure location, but the craft malfunctioned, the pilot lost control and it drifted off range. That would explain why the helicopters were following it and why there were so many. Perhaps they anticipated that it might crash in a populated area, so they loaded the copters up with a lot of personnel so they'd be ready to immediately quarantine the area where it came down and start cleanup/coverup.

The shape of the object really intrigues me though, because it just doesn't sound like a very practical shape. To be aerodynamic, it would have to tilt onto it's side once it's in the air, which would mean it would probably need some kind of internal rotating or gyroscopic "cockpit" (if it even had one). No windows were described, so that's another feature, or lack there of, which seems impractical. The craft, when sitting upright, would be rather tall, very easy to spot and a very large target (and possibly susceptible to being blown over by the wind). Another thing that surprised me was the color. I always thought (as seen in the very first illustration in this thread), that the object was black like the stealth fighters. I never knew the witnesses said it was silver in color. And assuming the flames coming out were from some sort of rocket engine and considering what it did to the road, it sounds like this craft would cause a lot of damage every time it took off and landed.

Based on what happened to the witnesses, it seems this was likely a nuclear powered craft. I wonder what Stanton has to say about this case, seeing as he's always mentioning that he worked on top secret nuclear rockets, which possibly could have been what was being used to power this very craft!

posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 09:42 AM
reply to post by Kandinsky

Wow thank you for bringing this interesting test into my attention!! It could've been very well a NASA lunar lander test. The sound of the craft is really comparable to the witnesses accounts!!

reply to post by Charizard

Yes, only more questions ^^ Being tested in the 80's I really can imagine this craft being nuclear powered! Ans I too wonder about the control, manned or unmanned?..

posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 09:56 AM
S&F with thanks for all the hard work and effort putting this thread together! I'll keep this thread bookmarked for future reference. It's an interesting case, and I'm glad you took the initiative compiling so much information into one thread.

posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 11:24 AM
Its a very nice writeup but I must say I find the Chinook deal very strange. They are heavy troop transports, not something you'd want to intercept and "surround" a UFO with - unless you want to invade the UFO with a small army. 23 of them would be able to carry like 700 men.

posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 02:45 AM
reply to post by Droogie

Originally posted by merka
Its a very nice writeup but I must say I find the Chinook deal very strange. They are heavy troop transports, not something you'd want to intercept and "surround" a UFO with - unless you want to invade the UFO with a small army. 23 of them would be able to carry like 700 men.

Thank you both!!

Wow I didn't know they were able to carry like 700 men with such a fleet of Chinooks
Do even so many S.O.A.R. members/ Seals exist? And I still wonder if there's ever a person among these pilots or soldiers who will tell the truth evetually... Or they will die under their oath and codex not to tell anything...

edit: I found another interesting video tho I still wonder how they managed to move the craft in other directions than up and down with just flames on the lower side of the craft...:

And check this out (MUST SEE!!):
edit on 22/8/11 by Dalbeck because: (no reason given)

posted on Aug, 24 2011 @ 12:54 AM

Originally posted by Dalbeck
reply to post by Kandinsky

Wow thank you for bringing this interesting test into my attention!! It could've been very well a NASA lunar lander test. The sound of the craft is really comparable to the witnesses accounts!!

reply to post by Charizard

Yes, only more questions ^^ Being tested in the 80's I really can imagine this craft being nuclear powered! Ans I too wonder about the control, manned or unmanned?..

Excellent article!

I'd quickly discount the NASA lunar lander theory though, lunar landers are not designed to operate in Earth's gravity therefore testing them in this manner would be pointless and dangerous, NASA had already built a vehicle to train astronauts in the 60's called the Lunar Landing Research Vehicle (LLRV) which was designed to simulate the moons low gravity here on Earth using a jet engine and train pilots to operate the lunar module. It was unstable and very dangerous, 3 out of the 5 made were destroyed in crashes, so I very much doubt NASA would be testing vehicles like this anywhere near populated areas as they're well aware of how dangerous they are.

Here is a link to a video of Neil Armstrong losing control of and destroying an LLRV

posted on Aug, 24 2011 @ 02:29 AM
reply to post by Stephen22

Thanks a lot, Stephen!

I think this project/ craft had a military background, so yes, no NASA involved in my opinion. Although it (the lunar lander theory) *may* be one explanation we have to take into consideration until the truth is revealed.

Just look up some posts above where I posted some youtube video links to different lunar lander projects which hover and have a flame like the craft in this case.

posted on Aug, 24 2011 @ 03:16 AM
reply to post by Dalbeck
The lunar lander idea is self-contradicting. The only *known* vehicles that resemble the thing described by Cash and Landrum (flames out the bottom, upright) are landers and prototype landers. On the other hand, nobody tests landers in locations or circumstances described by the women and the video of Morpheus shows how tests are usually carried out.

If it was some CIA or military project, they also have plenty of reasons for not testing secret vehicles in public places. This thing damn near turned these people into cinders and would hardly be getting flown around when it was unstable and dangerous to anyone who came close. NASA have White Sands and that's over a 1000 miles from Dayton.

The number of chinooks varies from 23 to 12 between different witnesses. This seems a lot and hard to accept, it suggests that the object was under supervision or being tracked and then we're back to the above points of who in their right mind would be flying something like this in public?

I'd doubt the entire account, but we've got melted asphalt, definite injuries and secondary witnesses to ridiculous fleets of chinooks. And a court case!

posted on Aug, 24 2011 @ 03:32 AM
reply to post by Kandinsky

Thanks for your input

Check this video out:

It seems that there are also tests carried out without any brackect or holder unlike the Morpheus project. Maybe they really tested some kind of lander (troop carrier?) and it malfunctioned, drifted away from the test grounds and of course it would've been monitored and the pilots were ready to go in any case of emergency?

posted on Aug, 24 2011 @ 02:31 PM
Nice effort. I've looked into this case more than any. It's one of the few where I believe something significant actually happened. However, the Hunters show had a lot of misleading and/or incorrect info. I also believe they looked at the wrong location. I'm not sure why. I think the son may have forgotten the exact location over the years, or mistaken it. There's lots of elements they tried to add into the story, which I don't believe. I don't believe the road surface was replaced... There seems to be no evidence for that. Not to mention, that would not remove any residual traces from the area anyway. I also don't believe they had any sort of injuries due to radiation. I think the injuries they received could possibly be viewed that way, but they were not directly from radiation. I do believe there is somewhat of a coverup in the military, but not for the reasons some believe.

The problem with the 'testing' theory, is that it just doesn't make sense. There was no facility anywhere near there that works on programs like that. Anything like that would never be anywhere near an area like that. The 160th had just barely been formed at that time, and all of their effort was being made towards the plan for a second hostage rescue attempt in Iran. Which is the whole reason why the unit was started in the first place. However... If you look into the story more, you will see that including that unit is not that far off the mark form what most likely DID happen in the incident.

If you read carefully through the transcript taken by the AF when the ladies were interviewed... lots of good info can be obtained. Specifically, they were adamant about the fact that they DID NOT think aliens had anything to do with it. They were convinced that it was military/gov related, and were actually annoyed when the AF people mentioned talking to UFO people about it. But all that said... There are definitely issues that can be found with their testimony on the incident. If you follow their actions and the reporting of what the helicopters supposedly did, there are many things that don't make sense. That can be attributed to their confusion, which would be normal. But it could also be attributed to the fact that they may have exaggerated or changed their story. Most notable is the fact that one of the women claimed they thought they were seeing god when they first saw the light. That gives an idea as to where their mindset was and that they could be confused about what they were seeing. Still, I do believe something of significance did happen.

I would have to go back and look at all the stuff I collected to recall what parts of their story had issues. I think something happened... I'm just not sure it happened exactly the way they claim. I believe the older gentleman who said he also saw the helicopters. But I think the third guy is a copycat. I don't believe his story.

My personal theory is that the location of the incident was at a slightly different location, and that they were injured by a much less exotic accident. I have an idea what that was, but it can;t be proven, and to prove it could actually be damaging. There would be a legitimate reason why they have kept it secret, but nothing extraordinary.

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